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Endless Space

Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Messages
3,181
Going to assume they come from unhappy systems
Nah, happiness doesn't affect pirate spawns in any way. IIRC, they spawn only in uncolonized systems and by specific random events.
Also not 100% sure, but I think having uncolonized systems in someone's area of influence prevents pirates from spawning there.
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Huh. I guess it's possible. There are a fair number of systems left uncolonized around me because they're packed with shitty planets that don't seem worth the effort. Maybe it's worth dropping some miserable colonists down just to stop pirates.
 

Oesophagus

Arcane
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Messages
2,330
Location
around
Nah, happiness doesn't affect pirate spawns in any way. IIRC, they spawn only in uncolonized systems and by specific random events.
Also not 100% sure, but I think having uncolonized systems in someone's area of influence prevents pirates from spawning there.

pretty sure that's how it works. OTOH by the time only shitty systems are left you should have enough forces for pirates to become irrelevant
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Back on topic is ES game any better now? I played it a few months back, don't remember the version, but it was just when it was posible to pick a portrait different of the main trait. with custom race..

Custom races are still so heavily based on the primary races that they're not all that easily distinguishable from them.

Diplomacy is still just a means of breaking the AIs that has little non-meta justification, if any at all.

ES was never "way too easy". It's always had difficulties that shift rather abruptly between "AI is a fucking tool there to make me look good no matter how badly I play" and "there to beat the snot out of me because it achieves certain victory conditions faster than it is possible to do so by the rules the human players have to abide by." So yeah,. it's still utterly fucked. But it definitely isn't easy. Winning on Endless is sort of like rolling Yatzee*5 because under almost every possible circumstance one of the AI opponents will achieve a VC before it is ideally possible for a human player to achieve the same VC.

Expansion into total war remains the only way to play the game. Regardless of VCs, human players must fast-expand into total war to slow down AIs enough to have any kind of chance to obtain any VC.

- Mind that I'm not saying Endless can't be beaten. It most definitely can. But not reliably, and not because the AI is any kind of capable. It's much like playing Fallen Enchantress on Ridiculous or higher difficulties: the fuckers win purtely because they cheat so fucking hard the randomly generated maps mostly don't give you enough of an opportunity to stomp them before they can win purely by breaking the rules. The ES AI is a flaming fucking retard, and it never gets better than that. It just gets to cheat so much it will almost automatically win regardless of how idiotically it plays.

seconded. I have beaten ES just once: felt so tedious that I never again attemped the feat. The amount of cheating is hilarious, and still they squander all their ill-gotten riches on random fleets and poorly designed offensives that always end in failure. It's like fighting space red army under a demented Stalin. Damn shame, because the game at his core is somewhat good. I remember playing the beta and saying to myself "well, they'll surely improve the AI for release...". Fuck them froggies.
 

Minttunator

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Sep 26, 2012
Messages
1,650
Location
Estonia
Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Wrath
Picked this up during the recent Steam sale and gave it a spin for a couple of hours. First impressions: the game itself seems to be pretty fun, but the UI is fiddly and needs work. I'm also not completely sold on the card-based combat yet. The soundtrack is awesome!

I'm too much of a noob to tell whether the AI is bad, but I'll take you guys' word for it. Seems to be par for the course - are there any recent 4X games where the AI is actually good and wins because of that instead of winning thanks to cheating?
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Picked this up during the recent Steam sale and gave it a spin for a couple of hours. First impressions: the game itself seems to be pretty fun, but the UI is fiddly and needs work. I'm also not completely sold on the card-based combat yet. The soundtrack is awesome!

I'm too much of a noob to tell whether the AI is bad, but I'll take you guys' word for it. Seems to be par for the course - are there any recent 4X games where the AI is actually good and wins because of that instead of winning thanks to cheating?

GalCiv II, depending on your definition of "recent". Shame that the game itself is as soulless as a justin bieber song.
 

Riel

Arcane
Joined
Apr 29, 2012
Messages
1,379
Location
Itaca
Going to assume they come from unhappy systems
Nah, happiness doesn't affect pirate spawns in any way. IIRC, they spawn only in uncolonized systems and by specific random events.
Also not 100% sure, but I think having uncolonized systems in someone's area of influence prevents pirates from spawning there.

Pirates spawn in planets that are unseen for several turns in a row. So as long as you keep one ship "patroling" those uncolonized out of your influence systems no pirates will spawn.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,184
The only good things i can say about it is it looks pretty and music is good , except that i only have negative things to say , i am not doing that to be edgy or get some KKK, it just seems that lately most of the strategy games i tried are complete shit. Ai is indeed terrible and cheating, fielding collossal fleets when it shouldnt be able to sustain them , random events can completely screw you, the new religion one like multi headed cow mentioned, a few other like that, and worse of all the pirate fleets, they are huge, have much more firepower than what your whole empire can field they can conquer your world with ease and when your allies reconquer them they dont even give them back to you....

Theres still only one viable way to win, no change at all with all those patchs, pick cravers(others are less optimum), and tech for destroyers,produce and rush destroyers with no armor and full weaponry . The destroyer is the only hull worth using cause its weaponry bonus, the whole combat system is questionable, as if you place 3 type of resists, they will be likely too low to block anything and if you focus on one resist type, it will be likely too low still , reducing your firepower and 2/3 of the cases equal to zero as they arent gentlemen and using the other types of damage.
After a game of Ai wars , the galaxy of endless space are indeed tiny, once i had to check back my settings to see if it was really on huge i thought it was an error.
 

Zarniwoop

TESTOSTERONIC As Fuck™
Patron
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Messages
18,717
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Picked this up during the recent Steam sale and gave it a spin for a couple of hours. First impressions: the game itself seems to be pretty fun, but the UI is fiddly and needs work. I'm also not completely sold on the card-based combat yet. The soundtrack is awesome!

I'm too much of a noob to tell whether the AI is bad, but I'll take you guys' word for it. Seems to be par for the course - are there any recent 4X games where the AI is actually good and wins because of that instead of winning thanks to cheating?


AI in pretty much all games cheats and especially in 4X titles. There was some discussion about it in another thread and some super genius came up with "NO U cheat because you're smarter than the computer so the massive production boost/health boost/whatever cheating is totally justified olololol" or something of that nature. I think it was actually about one of the Total War games which is more grand strategy than 4X, but the same applies here. And it's still a bullshit argument.
 
Joined
Mar 3, 2010
Messages
8,873
Location
Italy
Nah, happiness doesn't affect pirate spawns in any way. IIRC, they spawn only in uncolonized systems and by specific random events.
Also not 100% sure, but I think having uncolonized systems in someone's area of influence prevents pirates from spawning there.

pretty sure that's how it works. OTOH by the time only shitty systems are left you should have enough forces for pirates to become irrelevant
no.
pirates spawn in off the radar systems.
put a single scout in a system outside your radar range and no pirate will ever spawn there.
 

Misconnected

Savant
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
587
Thought #1: GOD DAMN I LOVE THE ENDLESS SPACE SOUNDTRACK. If nothing else this game was worth it for that. IIRC the files are .oggs in the game folder so I can yoink it as-needed for any other space games. One mild annoyance is how the music changes depending on what screen you're on, some songs are great on the galaxy map while others are better in a sub-menu.

Entirely agreed. ES looks and sounds fucking brilliant.


Thought #4: Even though it doesn't seem massively changed from my last stab at the game I'm still enjoying it. Will have to see if this continues.


I fire it up whenever I see it's been patched. Unfortunately, the gameplay issues and AI haven't been addressed, so the game still has no lasting appeal beyond looking and sounding amazing.


Considering how streamlined most mechanics are, it actually puzzles me how AI can be so poor.


I'm puzzled by it as well. ES has what I assume are two pretty massive advantages over most 4X games: there's relatively few game mechanics, and decisions are fairly deterministic. In other 4X games I typically start a match with a pretty detailed plan in mind, but I rarely know just how great that plan is or how many of the details I'll have to re-work on the fly due to circumstance. In ES there's really no need for a plan - most of the things you can do from turn to turn are either clearly optimal or sub-optimal, on the turn you can choose to do them and forever afterwards.

I know f-all about AI, but it seems to be that if you sat your ass down and described when not to do stuff, and let the AI randomly pick whatever not filtered out by that list, the AI would end up being pretty fantastic. And yeah, I'm sure that is an insane amount of work, but it's not exactly rocket surgery.


seconded. I have beaten ES just once: felt so tedious that I never again attemped the feat. The amount of cheating is hilarious, and still they squander all their ill-gotten riches on random fleets and poorly designed offensives that always end in failure. It's like fighting space red army under a demented Stalin. Damn shame, because the game at his core is somewhat good. I remember playing the beta and saying to myself "well, they'll surely improve the AI for release...". Fuck them froggies.


I was talking about the game on maximum difficulty (AKA "Endless"). Unlike you I hugely enjoyed learning how to play the game - something I hate in pretty much any other 4X game. My issue with the game isn't that it doesn't hold up for 2-3 matches, but rather that it is too... Deterministic, for lack of a better term, and the AI is too damn stupid for the game to have any lasting appeal. There's essentially just 1 way to play ES, and whether you win or lose comes down to the game difficulty and whether one of the AIs got a lucky start (on Endless there's a good chance an AI will snowball into a VC with literally super-human speed, regardless of how ineptly it plays).



AI in pretty much all games cheats and especially in 4X titles.


Which in no way means that all AI is the same or remotely equal.


Warlock's AI, for example, is pretty good at the tactical combat portion of the game. Indeed, it's the best AI there is at that sort of thing, by a wide margin. It's also 10 kinds of crap at the strategic management portion of the game, but to some extent gets around that shortcoming by breaking a bunch of the rules - rules the player can't directly observe it breaking. And no, I'm not picking Warlock at random here, it's a somewhat comparable game in that it too is very deterministic and simple by 4X standards (then again, I'd argue Warlock is a wargame, not a 4X).



The AI in ES isn't good at anything at all. It can't coordinate its fleets, so its fleets zip about like headless chickens. It can't figure out which combat cards to play in combat, so it often plays outright detrimental ones, or none at all. It can't assign leaders to where they're most needed, so it isn't developing as fast as it should and it can only magnify the combat or invasion effectiveness of a fleet that really needs it, by happy coincidence. It can't gauge relative fleet strengths, so it merrily suicides hundreds of thousands of credits worth of hardware over the course of a match. It doesn't know what improvements to construct or where to construct them, so it is monstrously inefficient at running its empire and actually sucks so fucking hard at it that I half suspect it would bankrupt itself if it played by the normal resource rules.

The challenge comes from how massively its cheating snowballs. Per the AI's special rules, just about any system earns and produces as well as the most perfectly perfect mega-system would in the hands of a competent human player. Which means it, however inexpertly, can throw around a shitstorm of semi-decent stuff, and it typically has a lot of equally fucking retarded opponents to throw all that stuff at. Thus frequently creating a snowballing doom-empire that, even if it's too damn stupid to kill the player, will hit one of the victory conditions much, much faster than it should be possible.

Both in general and in the case of ES in particular, the problem isn't how much the AI breaks the rules. The problem is when the AI isn't any good at playing by the rules it has to play by. For example, if the ES AI wasn't such a fucking clown, the cheating wouldn't cause anywhere near the kind of snowballing doom-empire thing that currently happens in the game. Because an AI empire with a lucky start would be facing organised opposition.

pirates spawn in off the radar systems.

Exactly right.

I'm not entirely certain, but I believe (non-event-) pirates can only spawn in systems that have been outside Sensor and Influence range for more than 2 turns.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
The only good things i can say about it is it looks pretty and music is good , except that i only have negative things to say , i am not doing that to be edgy or get some KKK, it just seems that lately most of the strategy games i tried are complete shit. Ai is indeed terrible and cheating, fielding collossal fleets when it shouldnt be able to sustain them , random events can completely screw you, the new religion one like multi headed cow mentioned, a few other like that, and worse of all the pirate fleets, they are huge, have much more firepower than what your whole empire can field they can conquer your world with ease and when your allies reconquer them they dont even give them back to you....

Theres still only one viable way to win, no change at all with all those patchs, pick cravers(others are less optimum), and tech for destroyers,produce and rush destroyers with no armor and full weaponry . The destroyer is the only hull worth using cause its weaponry bonus, the whole combat system is questionable, as if you place 3 type of resists, they will be likely too low to block anything and if you focus on one resist type, it will be likely too low still , reducing your firepower and 2/3 of the cases equal to zero as they arent gentlemen and using the other types of damage.
After a game of Ai wars , the galaxy of endless space are indeed tiny, once i had to check back my settings to see if it was really on huge i thought it was an error.

Boggles the mind how there can be huge pirate armadas lurking in unexplored systems even before the era of space exploration started. Who are they? Minor races? Stragglers from failed expeditions? Al least space monsters in MoO2 made some sense. Just disable them for logic's sake.
 

aron searle

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2007
Messages
2,720
Location
United Kingdom (of retardation)
Pirates are fucking retarded, By turn 30 you will likely have a 2-5 system empire, yet pirates (think of what a pirate is) are able to pump out fleets more powerful than an empire.

:retarded:

Victory conditions are shit, here is why.

In one of my first games, after turn 50ish I got a message I had been defeated ??? I thought, no war, everything seemingly running smoothly, I don’t know why I lost (pressed continue).

In a recent game, I owned <30% of the galaxy, but had top techs, 3 other races owned the other 70% of the galaxy, in equal sizes. They all declared war on me, I thought SHIIIIIT, then I started curb stomping all 3 of them with superior fleets, I was utterly destroying them.

*YOU HAVE BEEN DEFEATED*

One of them had amassed 420k dust, without even getting into the whole “The AI cheats” argument, what an utterly stupid victory condition in the face of my fleets raping their systems.

Still, worth the £12 I paid for it.
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Yep, pirates are slowly killing my desire to play. Lost both my heroes (And don't have the money to revive them since I'm paying the upkeep on so many fleets) due to constant pirate fights softening their fleets and then Hissho leaping on them. I theoretically haven't lost the game yet since I've got a couple decent forge systems that can crank out ships are a good rate, but it's turning into a bit of a grind and I'm losing my will to continue that game. Especially with all the pirates, who I recently noticed conquered two Hissho/Sophon systems which might explain why there have been EVEN MORE GODDAMN PIRATES on that side of my empire.

Still, that said it was more enjoyable than the bit I played before any of their mini-expansions. Certainly not my favorite space 4X or anything but it's decent. Apparently they're working on an expansion so maybe that'll fix it up even more.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Today I replayed this thing. Found Automatons fleets with 20 command points. There aren't 20 achievable command points in the whole tech tree, as far as i know. Most blatant cheat I've ever seen in a 4X. I think I will leave this to rot in the depths of my steam account.
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Today I replayed this thing. Found Automatons fleets with 20 command points. There aren't 20 achievable command points in the whole tech tree, as far as i know. Most blatant cheat I've ever seen in a 4X. I think I will leave this to rot in the depths of my steam account.
20 command points is achievable in the tech tree. At least in my current game I'm at 13 available at the moment, and there's a +3 and a +4 tech on the tree still available. On top of that there's the tech that gives +2 per ship hull type researched and I've still got one left undiscovered. So that theoretically would bring me up to 22, and automatons get a racial -2 to command points.
 

ohWOW

Sucking on dicks and being proud of it
Dumbfuck Queued
Joined
Nov 15, 2011
Messages
2,449
I'm sure that AI cheats in battles, how the fuck 8/10 of my cards picked in last second get countered?
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Today I replayed this thing. Found Automatons fleets with 20 command points. There aren't 20 achievable command points in the whole tech tree, as far as i know. Most blatant cheat I've ever seen in a 4X. I think I will leave this to rot in the depths of my steam account.
20 command points is achievable in the tech tree. At least in my current game I'm at 13 available at the moment, and there's a +3 and a +4 tech on the tree still available. On top of that there's the tech that gives +2 per ship hull type researched and I've still got one left undiscovered. So that theoretically would bring me up to 22, and automatons get a racial -2 to command points.

Seems strange. I'm at nine with max custom bonus and only two techs to discover.
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Today I replayed this thing. Found Automatons fleets with 20 command points. There aren't 20 achievable command points in the whole tech tree, as far as i know. Most blatant cheat I've ever seen in a 4X. I think I will leave this to rot in the depths of my steam account.
20 command points is achievable in the tech tree. At least in my current game I'm at 13 available at the moment, and there's a +3 and a +4 tech on the tree still available. On top of that there's the tech that gives +2 per ship hull type researched and I've still got one left undiscovered. So that theoretically would bring me up to 22, and automatons get a racial -2 to command points.

Seems strange. I'm at nine with max custom bonus and only two techs to discover.
Hmm. Might be a difficulty thing? I'm only playing on normal. Higher difficulty might cripple the player's available command points but not the AI's?
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Today I replayed this thing. Found Automatons fleets with 20 command points. There aren't 20 achievable command points in the whole tech tree, as far as i know. Most blatant cheat I've ever seen in a 4X. I think I will leave this to rot in the depths of my steam account.
20 command points is achievable in the tech tree. At least in my current game I'm at 13 available at the moment, and there's a +3 and a +4 tech on the tree still available. On top of that there's the tech that gives +2 per ship hull type researched and I've still got one left undiscovered. So that theoretically would bring me up to 22, and automatons get a racial -2 to command points.

Seems strange. I'm at nine with max custom bonus and only two techs to discover.
Hmm. Might be a difficulty thing? I'm only playing on normal. Higher difficulty might cripple the player's available command points but not the AI's?

Possible, i'm prlaying serious. Are all the cp techs located in the left branch of the tree?
 

Multi-headed Cow

Guest
Today I replayed this thing. Found Automatons fleets with 20 command points. There aren't 20 achievable command points in the whole tech tree, as far as i know. Most blatant cheat I've ever seen in a 4X. I think I will leave this to rot in the depths of my steam account.
20 command points is achievable in the tech tree. At least in my current game I'm at 13 available at the moment, and there's a +3 and a +4 tech on the tree still available. On top of that there's the tech that gives +2 per ship hull type researched and I've still got one left undiscovered. So that theoretically would bring me up to 22, and automatons get a racial -2 to command points.

Seems strange. I'm at nine with max custom bonus and only two techs to discover.
Hmm. Might be a difficulty thing? I'm only playing on normal. Higher difficulty might cripple the player's available command points but not the AI's?

Possible, i'm prlaying serious. Are all the cp techs located in the left branch of the tree?
Yep, as far as I can see. I don't believe any of the heroes increase CP on a fleet either, so it should all be tech from that branch.
 

asongforsimeon

Educated
Joined
Feb 15, 2013
Messages
73
Today I replayed this thing. Found Automatons fleets with 20 command points. There aren't 20 achievable command points in the whole tech tree, as far as i know. Most blatant cheat I've ever seen in a 4X. I think I will leave this to rot in the depths of my steam account.
20 command points is achievable in the tech tree. At least in my current game I'm at 13 available at the moment, and there's a +3 and a +4 tech on the tree still available. On top of that there's the tech that gives +2 per ship hull type researched and I've still got one left undiscovered. So that theoretically would bring me up to 22, and automatons get a racial -2 to command points.

Seems strange. I'm at nine with max custom bonus and only two techs to discover.
Hmm. Might be a difficulty thing? I'm only playing on normal. Higher difficulty might cripple the player's available command points but not the AI's?

Possible, i'm prlaying serious. Are all the cp techs located in the left branch of the tree?
Yep, as far as I can see. I don't believe any of the heroes increase CP on a fleet either, so it should all be tech from that branch.

Weird indeed. I'll look into it. Might even be a bug with custom traits.
 

Misconnected

Savant
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
587
I'm sure that AI cheats in battles, how the fuck 8/10 of my cards picked in last second get countered?


Selection bias & the human tendency to assume patterns whether or not any exist, I'd guess. But I've quick-resolved every battle since it became possible. I suppose resolving combat the slow and annoying way might work differently.

Weird indeed. I'll look into it. Might even be a bug with custom traits.

Must be. Automatons should have the lowest possible CP cap in the game, which as you've seen is 20. The Quantum Communications tech might be throwing you off, though, as it increases your CP cap by +2 per hull type you've researched.
 

Misconnected

Savant
Joined
Jan 18, 2012
Messages
587
With the big fleets trait I think a 24 is the highest CP, at least that's what I managed.

I believe the CP caps are 20 for Automatons, 26 for Cravers, and 22 for everyone else.

Heroes, however, can magnify fleet combat & invasion effectiveness drastically. I'm not sure what the ceiling is, but it is not less than 300%

Moreover, while Cravers are poor and must be able to expand to be competitive in research and production, Automatons have massive production and aren't really deficient at anything. And of course, Horatio kicks the snot out of both because they can border-spam and clone heroes. And Sophons can turbo to tech victory absurdly fast...

Point being: CP only really matters until everyone hits their cap - which they will very quickly on Endless.
 

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