Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Emergent Narrative

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by darkpatriot, Jan 2, 2012.

  1. mondblut Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Are you on meds or something? The part you quoted retells the *maps* mechanics from Wizardry 7, nothing more, nothing less. Last time I checked, none of post-1993 RPGs featured proactive factions whose own bands of adventurers would recover quest items if the player tarried for too long. Except for Grimoire, but even there it didn't actually work in the betas. Why don't you pull Tim Cain's cock out of your mouth for a second and try to play something made before 1997 for a change?

    No shit, Sherlock. That's why such a game was never made and most likely never will be.
     
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  2. BLOBERT Arcane Patron

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    BRO LOLOLOLOL I PLAYED OLDER GAMES WHEN THEY CAME OUT

    JUST BECAUSE YOUVE GOT SOME WIRED PROBLEMS WITH TIM CAIN OR HIS PENIS ISNT MY FAULT JESUS CHRIST

    ANYWAYS I GET WHERE YOU ARE GOING AND I CANT THINK OF GOOD EXAMPLES FROM FALLOUT OR ARCANUM ALTHOUGH I THINK THAT STYLE OF GAME WOULD SUIT MORE EMERGENT SHIT AND IS A NATURAL EXTENSION OF IT

    PERHAPS A BETTER EXAMPLE IS SPACE RANGERS 2 IN TERMS OF RANDOM CONTENT AND AN ACTIVE OPPOSING FACTION

    BRO I NEVER DID GET AROUND TO DARKLANDS I PLAYED THE GOLDBOX GAMES ULTIMAS WIZARDRIES A LITTLE MIGHT AND MAGIC AND THIS TYPE OF SHIT WAS ALMOST NONEXISTANT IF I REMEMBER RIGHT
     
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  3. Giauz Ragnacock Scholar

    Giauz Ragnacock
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    In my other post I meant like how the GM has at least a rudimentary adventure planned and then the players (including the GM) fill it in with details. What you sound like your talking about sounds a little vast to comprehend (I'm so far understanding that you want a few hundred hours of unique randomly generated side quests with simple goals created from just the play mechanics). It sounds interesting from a design perspective, but I would like to test a pretty stable alpha/beta before I would know if I liked it or not. Push forward with making the game, BRO!
     
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  4. turrican Educated

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    Das Schwarze Auge (Realms of Arcadia) 1 did it right. It throws your party into a coastal region of Aventuria with the long term threat of an orc invasion at hand, somewhat similar to the Fallout waterchip idea. In a non-linear fashion the party has to obtain map pieces to figure out the location of a MacGuffin before this invasion will occur.

    The map pieces can be obtained in pretty much any order (I do not even think all of them are needed), and there are a lot of non-mainquest related villages, quests and so on to discover.

    Everything in the game is handcrafted, and it feels very reminiscent to the actual pen&paper Realms of Arcadia that I played back then. I doubt any dynamic, level-scaled hiking sim or rouge-like can achieve this.
     
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  5. riptide Scholar

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    I believe you're referring to the Realms of Arkania series, correct?
     
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  6. turrican Educated

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    Yes, my bad, for a long time I did not even know that the games were released under some other name in English.

    Personally, I prefer Blade of Destiny to Star Trail or Shadows over Riva. While the successors improved graphics, automap, travel on the overland map etc., the explorable world became smaller and the non-linear plot progression was also streamlined. Hence my comment that Blade of Destiny is pretty much one of the best approximations of pen&paper RPGs on a computer.
     
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  7. Retinue Novice

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    I've never played a Tabletop gaming before but to my knowledge, tabletop games do not have an emergent narrative. What they have is a Regressive Narrative. A world full of preset narrative that regresses based on what the GM created.

    To this effect, what you are really saying is you want CRPGs to be more Life Sims.

    and consoles/computers will always have trouble replicating the social aspect of tabletop

    Setting aside the real/fake player paradigm, computers are much better at this than tabletop unless you include only quality tabletop experiences. Especially when satirical narrative is excluded, tabletop can degrade or upgrade. Computer rpgs are simply what you see is what you get setting aside patches and mods.

    The main advantage tabletop gaming has always had over CRPGs is the ability to adapt and react to the players actions through the use of a Game Master/Referee

    Not necessarily. FFTA has a game master (AI) that adapts to the player's actions but that isn't fun is it?

    It really depends on the quality of the reactor. The mechanics alone provide the opportunity, not the reality.

    Templated individual quests plugged into templated story arcs are the way that I believe can achieve this. An Individual quest would be something simple like get an object, deliver an object, get information, persuade someone etc… Something that is very simple in its purpose and is templated in ways like who is the quest giver, what is the objective, and what opposition is there (if any). The individual quests can then be plugged into a larger story arc. For example a story arc could consist of quests to retrieve a number of objects and then to have them made into a powerful artifact.

    Close but wrong. For example, Depths of Peril have this and 7th Saga had this but are either of those possessing emergent narratives compared to your basic CRPG? No.

    What you're basically saying is that given the choice to mod, quality mods would flourish. But on a more targetted variety. It's a delusion set forth either by your own bias as to how great you are as a GM or you're really that great and like a lablel, you fail to take into account the not so great.

    The proof of this is your statement of quests. Quests are not part of emergent narratives, they are there to plug in the flaws of narratives.

    In truth, quests are the original quest markers for quests especially as CRPGs can't have their sandbox if they don't have their distractions. Just because it's less obvious doesn't mean it still isn't a quest marker.

    In contrast Life Sims (setting quests aside), creates emergent narrative from your desire to be either a maid, royalty, swordfighter etc. Even quests creates interdepency. What severity of warrior do you desire? What severity of outlaw do you desire? From there, flawed as they are, life sims produce emergent narratives where the key flaw is there's no easy to use diary for you to plugin your own emerging narrative.

    Say for example all of your pieces of artifact are initially locked away deep in underground dungeon locations for safekeeping. If the player is able to investigate and get to them quickly it is simple dungeon crawling. But what if the player is dawdling and doing other things or a faction opposed to the player has caught wind of the player’s plans and recovers one of the pieces first. The quest for the recovery of the piece would then involve discovering where that faction has taken it and retrieving it from them. A magical or crafting inclined player might be able to follow an alternate quest of recreating the piece needed or jury rigging some way to make it work without that piece.

    It still won't have much of an emergent narrative effect. Play the demo for Empires and Dungeons and you'll see what I mean if you don't already.

    What is used to fill the templates can be based off the player’s previous actions and decisions. The opponents they face can be pulled from things the player has interacted before such as reoccurring opponents or loose ends from previous experiences. The same thing can be done for quest givers and helpers. Rewards can be made so the player has an interest in doing the quests and penalties for not doing/failing the quests can threaten things the player has a positive interest in.

    Again, 7th Saga/Depths of Peril. Still not much of an emergent narrative. GMs get away with this because even a great GM have flaws with connecting a narrative without some form of swap. Only instead of palette swap you have motive swap in the form of recurrance.

    You could even have story arcs plug into each other like a story arc about slaying some terrible beast that needs a specific weapon/artifact could plug our example story arc in the place of retrieving the weapon/artifact.

    You can but that would be a story arc. A bonus optional "good ending". VN makers call these shrine unlocks or something.

    The idea is basically this: Create an action/unlock an action either on the next playthrough or the next arc.

    The thing here though is that you are just basically sidestepping the creation of a sequel.

    To create an emerging narrative, the player must be the reason for not only who the beast is but how and what form the beast came to be. Even with this, you won't guarantee that players won't hack it per their desire to unlock all paths in replays.

    This was the problem when you used a walkthrough or replayed Dragon Valor and Phantasy Star III.

    To truly sidestep this, you need to create the opposite of a chess world which is a Go world.

    Problem is many perceive chess to be complex and wrongly used, the complexity of Go ends up becoming Othello or worse, kills the power fantasy player from reaching the utmost power which just causes them to restart.

    Another game mechanic that would be useful would be some sort of investigation mechanic. To help determine what kind of information you are able to get as opposed to the quest giver telling you everything you need to know. It could encompass things like research, social interaction, and spying/thieving. If it were set up as some kind of game mechanic as opposed to individual quests doing that it could provide the player more options/flexibility on how they want to handle something and fewer things that need to be specifically written.

    Investigation mechanics are cool but again your GM experience is blurring your idea of emergent narrative because you pre-know a certain form of outcome.

    In true videogame implementation, investigation mechanic has little to do with emerging narrative.

    It would also be helpful to have game mechanics in place that allow the player to dig deeper and get more information from a scene (provided they have the skills in place to do it). This should help with the repetition since it makes it more like a game mechanic and people tend to notice repetition in game mechanics less than in specific descriptions.

    Basic background impression should do. For a hint of this, see Choice of Romance and play up to Choice of Intrigues.

    A rich person would have an impression of a rich person npc which in turn would create a rich person quest.

    Comic Book Hero also has an interesting take on this. You as a new hero must befriend certain heroes to unlock the locations of villains as one option. Another option is to seek specific villains with a low percentage of success. Finally you can just go on patrol.

    As a mechanic, it's unoriginal and basic. Potentially though, what you really want to do is step away from investigations and again fall back on Life Sims. Let the Life Sim create your alignment and focus and the only real aspect you should switch and switch the classes concept of Life Sims and turn it into quest ladders. From there you will get your emergent narrative but I won't say you would like the final result. See the complaints for the flash sandbox game Caravaneer.

    Even with a walkthrough if the game designer can't handle the emerging narratives, all he has created is a sandbox but the worse part is that regardless of his talent, if his audience can't be receptive to emergent narratives all he has created is a sandbox.
     
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  8. NewFag Educated

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    Fuck my eyes. Too much TL;DR.

    Would it be possible to put a list of difference scenarios into a randomizer, randomly assign a new goal, path, obstacles, during each playthrough, and tweak the fine details with more randomness? In other words, create all the puzzle pieces, but procedurally generate the final picture. Choose ten pieces from a bucket of a thousand.

    New Game (Minor objective pulled from a hat. By accomplishing objective, events lead to a main quest. Which is also random)
    Main Quest Part 1 (Quests can be radically different, but sorted into general themes, also randomly chosen)
    ...
    Main Quest Part 10
    Conclusion (Every playthrough would be different, except some quests or NPCs might overlap depending on chance.)

    Certain systems would be put in place to "adapt" to the player. If the character is overtly strong in combat, insert a quest from the nightmare-combat bucket. If the game notices most of the skills chosen are non-combat, go with more combat-light speech/persuasion quests. Etc. If the PC is rich, spawn some jew NPCs to lower his fortune by a notch. Or make a communist revolution and have the PC's wealth be taken away.

    Probably would take way too much coding and effort to be feasible though. Just a thought.
     
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  9. darkpatriot Arcane

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    Tabletop RPGs have emergent narrative as in say: The group has been doing some favors for a kingdom and the kingdom is going to have a ceremony to award them medals or something like that. During the ceremony one of he players (who is pretty good at unarmed combat) decides to punch the king's head in and kills him. The story of the game then revovles around dealing with the aftermath of that. Them being outlaws or perhaps a resulting civil war.

    Are life sims those japanese games like princess maker? Because if they are they do have a form of emergent narrative but the gameplay in those style games is very limited in my limited experience with the genre. I am talking about emergent narrative within the CRPG genre.

    I am guessing that english is not your native language because in your response here the words make sense individually and the sentences do as well for the most part but when they are all put together with the context of what you are replying to it doesn't make sense. I'm going to assume some kind of communication problem and explain what I meant by the social aspect. I meant hanging out with friends while playing and catching up on your lives when not talking game talk. Discussing and arguing about what course of action you are going to take. Laughing when someone does or says something stupid. That sort of stuff.

    Final Fantasy Tactics advanced? If that is the case not remotely what I am talking about. I mean the ability to react to what the players do and potentially totally change the plot and the direction of the game such as in the example I gave earlier. No computer game I have ever seen has the ability to do this. And the system I propose even if it worked extremely well wouldn't either. It would only increase the reactivity to player actions some and generate new story dynamically in a way that the player hopefully feels is logical and interesting to them.

    Depths of Peril had it in a limited form within a very limited gameplay style and setting (hack and slash ARPGs). It was actually one of the games that has modified my thinking on the issue. I'm not familiar with 7th Saga so I can't comment on that.

    The second and third paragraphs are more ones where the parts individually make sense but the whole doesn't quite make sense to me. If you would clarify the idea here I could respond to it. I think with the third one here you are saying that quests get in the way of emergent narrative consisting entirely of good game mechanics interacting well with each other?

    Again, if life sims are what I think they are they provide extremely limited gameplay and are not what I am looking for. There may be some mechanics that they use that might be worth looking into though.


    I wasn't giving an investigation mechanic as a necessity to produce emergent narratives just an example of one of the many game mechanics that would be helpful in the system I am talking about. The more the mechanics are able to handle reactivity and player actions the less work needs to be done by the proposed quest system. And really the quest system is just another game mechanic anyway.

    The point of the emergent narrative proposed here is to create a sandbox type game, although it could be used in a more limited and controlled way to instead try and improve gameworld reactivity to player actions.

    I wasn't able to respond to a lot of what you wrote because of issues with it not quite making sense to me. A lot of times I got a sense of what I think you were communicating but wasn't solid enough on it to really reply to it. If you could clarify some of your statements I would try and respond to them.
     
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  10. darkpatriot Arcane

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    What you just said is very similar to what I said in my post. I would add that you need systems in place to fill in the scenarios with things that will have meaning to the players current playthrough that would hopefully allow it to achieve some sort of logical narrative from the players point of view and not just seem like a string of randomized quests.
     
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  11. DwarvenFood Arcane Patron

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    Retinue is like the failed version of Azrael the Cat.
     
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  12. kris Arcane

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    You actually even made me uncertain and forced me to look up the words for all their meaning. PnP clearly is closer to a emergent narrative, although I am a bit unsure what an "regressing narrative" really is in this aspect.

    But as far as this goes it is different from group to group.
     
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  13. deus101 Never LET ME into a tattoo parlor!

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    He see's modules and setting as "goto instructions" like a diy adventure.

    How he lables them as preset is beyond me, since what part of the setting and module you have to look up is based on a string failures and successes.
    Nor is the setting and campaign that fleshed out, it simply set the states of various actors, the GM must fill in the blanks which also leaves him room and the players room to improvise.

    How much and how well this is done is based on human factors though, but you should be able to overthrow regimes and suddenly start a war inside a bag of holding damnit.
     
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  14. Giauz Ragnacock Scholar

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    Retinue: I BROFISTED you because you've gotten a lot better at being concise. Just asking, but is English not your first language? Also, use obscure terms like "regressive narrative" sparingly unless you can give a little parentheses () description next to it and people will understand you even better.

    Finally, when you want to quote someone type in "BLANK said:" and then hit the QUOTES (") button on the white bar of the poster reply bar to give you a quote and end quote box to copy and paste stuff in between. You can even go back and edit this into your post to make it easier to read.

    Other than that I don't have anything to add to the discussion, yet.
     
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  15. Tel Prydain Scholar

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    I like the idea of it, but I’m not sure I would like how it would turn out. I think that the danger of procedurally generated content is that it tends to feel soulless.

    I think that, as the honourable Blobert said, the inherent structure of some RPGs do offer the opportunity for emergent narrative, even if some of the specifics are pre-planned. Fallout really is great example, where you can choose to follow a ‘quest’ or alternatively forge your own path with the gameplay mechanics.
    Even Fallout New Vegas manages that… you can follow the path of your would be assassin (which will give you a wider range of options later on), stumble upon him or ignore him altogether.

    I’m open to the idea of procedurally generated content, but I would imagine it being a supplement to the pre-planned content.
     
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  16. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    I think that in order to work best, the templates should be as loose as possible and try to avoid relying on explicit scripting. For example if you want to have a competing faction intercept a McGuffin, instead of scripting so0me ambush or something, you'd just trigger mechanics assigning a band of people to this quest and they would trigger their own submechanics responsible for what means do they use, while using as much as possible unified mechanics.

    I disagree. You'd generally need quite in depth simulation to have stuff interacting in non-trivial manner.

    For example you could have an act that might need investigating drop a clue object, linked to that act, and with attached appropriate in-world object that would serve as this clue. If the attached object got destroyed by its own or other mechanics, the clue would destroy itself. That's if you want the knowledge to be trackable by the program (for example you want to use evidence to persuade the law), for most applications just generating clues with no linking to the event would suffice.

    Topic-based (where/what is...?) and action-based (persuade/intimidate/flatter/insult/present evidence/...) would work just fine. Ocassional dialogue trees might be used if the situation is unique or the dialogue can be made generic enough.

    Overall, :bro: .

    Too bad he got even worse at making sense.

    :rpgcodex:

    The only "little" problem is that you're not using gameplay mechanics. You're following scripted options, statchecks and so on. If you try something out of the box it will only work if the devs happened to to think about this particular approach as well, if they didn't - tough luck, no matter how logical and brilliant was your idea.

    I'd go the other way around - make a good procedural sandbox, then spice it up with as much handmade and storyfag content as you can fit in.
     
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  17. Gregz Arcane

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    The only answer to this dilemma is LARPing with yourself. :bounce:

    In all honestly we shouldn't be so ashamed to do it, I mean...what is reading a novel but imagining a bunch of words and equating them to the feelings and actions of real people in our heads?

    I like a good combat ruleset with lots of depth, plenty of lore as ambiance, and then I let my imagination fill in the blanks.

    To 'solve' the problem the OP describes you need self-aware level sentient AI. As the OP pointed out, the Dungeon Master changes the gameworld to the mood and needs of players on the fly, it's completely unrealistic to expect a computer to be able to do that, even in the distant future. (I.e. we will probably never see something like that in our lifetimes)
     
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  18. Giauz Ragnacock Scholar

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    DraQ: Well, I felt Retinue gave it a shot. I hope my suggestions can help him, but everything comes down to him settling on specific questions instead of this all over the place with his words stuff.

    Back on topic: I think I agree with Tel Prydain as far as algorithmicallly-generated content would be soulless. There is no fine crafting to add any context to the quests, just a shallow "the task at hand." If I truly wanted to dig into CRPGs, I would not expect to keep squeezing new game content out of them (except for maybe making a future replay nuanced). If I want a new adventure I can wait until I get an entirely new game at Christmas or for a birthday, check out a few interesting reads at the library, or take a chance by ploping a few bucks for something on GOG.

    On another note, has anyone tried just like "free-roleplaying" (no real rules just pretend) with one of those near-Turning Test-passing chatbots (I remember reading an article that claimed two chatbots did pass it, but I have no idea what came of it)? How complex of a role-play can you get? Was that fun?
     
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  19. DraQ Prestigious Gentleman Arcane

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    Do you LARP that characters done something differently than described in the novel and different stuff happened if you're displeased with the course of action as written?
    Maybe cross out undesired part of the text and write your own replacement on the margins using console pencil?

    You don't. Real life provides perfectly plausible emergent narrative without.

    He did, but he missed. His explanation of "regressive narrative" was just as cryptic as the term itself to me.

    Well, you can put handmade content in an emergent, procedural sandbox. As much as you want, you just have to limit scripting and railroading to an absolute minimum, and specify end conditions well, otherwise the storyline will break if you, for example, were sent on an epic quest to retrieve missing key to princess' chastity belt, but chose to disintegrate the belt instead with magic.

    But have you ever thought of some clever way to solve in-game situation, but couldn't?

    Emergent narrative is the answer to this problem, because instead of predefined solutions it relies on specified goal state and a lot of simulative mechanics between you and that goal.
     
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  20. darkpatriot Arcane

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    Simulating many things in depth takes a lot of work and if it is something that the player doesn't really interact with or effect that much it will appear to the player to just be random. Take for example MOO3. That game has some pretty complex systems simulating stuff like growth and production and morale. The problem is that it isn't communicated to the player very well how it works. So there is often (especially when it first came out) a sense that a player has little control over those things and they don't know what results are a reaction to what decision they made earlier. It is also apparent in many strategy games that have complex diplomacy systems. When the modifiers that modify the relationship values between empires aren't known it seems confusing to the player the reasons people do or don't like them and they feel they aren't able to fine tune their diplomatic strategy. The more a player is able to interact, influence, and know about the system the more benefit there is to doing an in depth simulation of it. If it is something that isn't interacted with much by the player you will probably not need to have much more than weighted random results. Also, if you have to much that is going on that isn't affected by the player's actions it will make the player feel like they don't have much influence or effect on the goings on in the world. This might be desirable based on the game you are trying to make.

    This is a big problem with content that is procedurally generated. I didn't really communicate it that well in my original post but a big part of making a system like this work well is putting in place systems to make the quests generated feel relevant to the players actions so they can connect the dots in their heads and fill in the gaps to make the narrative feel logical and fulfilling. What will put the soul into it is the player's imagination. Many people do this already in games that aren't really designed to take advantage of this human behavior. That is how you get the entertaining stories from LPs. And that is how people do their LARPing in Bethesda games. All you can really hope to do is provide the bones of a story that the player will flesh out.

    Some things like simply being able to keep getting more tasks from groups/NPCs they like will help with this. Other things like having a system in place so the people opposing them are semi-consistent can help. Being able to pull pieces of the current quests from previous quests/actions will be a big help. If the enemies opposing a player are the same bunch that a player snuck around previously (or they ran away perhaps) that will make connections the player can fill the gaps in between. Also, making resources that are useful to them (NPCs, Shops, Crafting Locations etc...) threatened will get the player going to try and stop whatever is the threat is. The more you make what is going on feel connected to what they have done in the past the easier it will be for them to fill in all the gaps and details and give the procedurally generated content the soul it needs. Flavor text to help indicate these connections would be a huge help as well.

    If anyone else had any ideas for game mechanics/systems that would help in doing his I'd be very interested in hearing them.

    I would not try and simulate dialogue much at all. I think scene descriptions can effectively communicate the information that is needed to the player and still have enough room to be detailed and specific enough that it won't seem like a generic block of text all the time. It would still take a lot of work but I think that it is the easiest way to handle NPC interactions. I think it would also invoke the players imagination more and put them more in the mood to help create the story. I know that the scene descriptions in Darklands had an effect like this on me. The first couple times I saw them at least.
     
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  21. Giauz Ragnacock Scholar

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    Simulative mechanics are fine when they really add to playing the game like a puzzle like that. Using the example of a locked, thick metal door on the outside of an "impenetrable" fortress. The lock can be picked if you have mastered the proper set of lockpicking techniques and have the proper tools. The lock has a damage threshold of 3000, so use any combination of techniques to break the lock (however, something like Fire Ball will only begin building damage slowly after you have heated the lock up with many consecutive Fire Balls). The lock also just so happens to be made of a certain material a magic stone you might have found can wipe from existence. Blow a poison cloud into the lock and use a Lightning Bolt to charge it enough to ignite the gas and blow the lock off. You could also look around for clues and get information out of people to find out if you can get a key to the lock without much hassle.

    On the other hand, actual emergent narrative, as in building a pseudo story that might be coherent and possibly amusing by just throwing out random stuff like this guy needs saved, escort him, retrieve this item, fedex this, talk to her, protect the castle, lead the invasion, etc.--- I just don't see it. Dwarf fortress would probably be the poster boy for emergent narrative, but the stories that come from it depend greatly on the writing ability of the person who posted the story, otherwise there's really no fulfilling narrative to experience. All that remains is what you could come up with entirely without the game.

    No, I would still like a writer to put a lot of thought into making the game feel different from other games with their particular writing, settings, characters, etc. I guess the only thing I actually disagreed with you on was the use of the term "emergent narrative."
     
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  22. darkpatriot Arcane

    darkpatriot
    Joined:
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    1,439
    That's why they couldn't just be randomly thrown together. They have to be responsive to the player and build off of what has occurred previously. And there can still be a lot of thought put into the writing, settings, and characters. Just because something is procedurally generated doesn't mean it has to be generic. You still have to set it up so it includes plenty of detail for the player. The game has to acknowledge and encourage how the player fills in the gaps to some degree so they don't feel like it is just them playing make believe or LARPing as it is called here. Like Gregz said, the mental process is very similar to how people enjoy books.
     
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  23. Make America Great Again lefthandblack Arcane Patron

    lefthandblack
    Joined:
    May 5, 2006
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    I'm thinking of something very similar for what I'm working on. In thinking about it, I have come up with a couple of commandments that would have to be established in order for it to work:

    1) Damn overarching "main quests". Damn them to Hell.

    Instead of a MAJESTIC main quest, come up with a well fleshed out backstory that is supported by your game's world/atmosphere. The factions aspect of your world would be the most important component. You can write quests that allow the player to interact with these factions working in concert with the backstory, but never let the player become THE CHOSEN ONE. This leads directly to commandment two.

    2) The player is just "some dude."

    I often find myself enjoying the side quest's in CRPGS much more than the main quest. The main quest in alot of cases just feels like an anchor dragging down my enjoyment of the game. Think of the beginning of Freelancer, your very first quest objective is GET A JOB. Brilliant. Ok, player, here is the world> these are the factions>this is how they relate to each other>
    this is what's happening in the world> Now go forth and do stuff.
     
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  24. Giauz Ragnacock Scholar

    Giauz Ragnacock
    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2011
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    436
    To each his own, lefthandblack. To me your idea (READ: the factions every other super-immersion guy on the internet wants) sounds just so similar to many others and broad.

    This does not decry the idea, but I think you will need a lot more bullet points than what all the other ones have (factions, you are just a small part of the world, thousands of handcrafted and randomized quests, 1 million items, 20 character classes, etc.) rather than just go and say that, "Well my game does them better" (than Depths of Peril, the upcoming Age of Decadence, TES games since Daggerfall, Dwarf Fortress, and probably quite a few others that have done all the things you want to do).

    Whatever, either you or darkpatriot do, just my opinion, your games have to stand out from each other (setting, some darn well-written characters if you can, in-game era/technology, a range of motivations to play your game not limited to joining factions and building the most min-maxed characters possible, and whatever else can pleasantly surprise your consumers). Just don't stop with, "Well, we do these bullet points the best."
     
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  25. Make America Great Again lefthandblack Arcane Patron

    lefthandblack
    Joined:
    May 5, 2006
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    731
    Yeah, those bullet points are just the ones that I've determined to be necessary so far. The one thing that I think is paramount is to avoid stupid situations like you have in the Codex's favorite game where you are dicking around with one faction or another while the whole world is being invaded by demons. I don't want to be the chosen one, maybe I'm happy just being in the thieves guild.

    So how could you have the player do what they want to do and avoid the situations described above? Let's take the thieves guild example. Instead of going through a bunch of quests for them that have nothing to do with the backstory (demon invasion), write quests related to the backstory that make use of the talents of someone that is in the thieves guild. Maybe you have a powerful wizard that is allied with the demons, have a quest to steal the wizards magic foozle thus using your unique skillset in a way that directly ties into the backstory while still allowing the player to do what he wants to do.
    Since the player is NOT the chosen one, there is no disconnect between completing this quest (for a handsome reward from the royal treasury) and the very next day robbing the royal tax collector, since you are just some dude who is out for himself and only helped the war effort because there was a personal gain in it for you.
     
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