Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Incline Elminage Gothic - RELEASED ON PC (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

Discussion in 'jRPG Weeaboo Discussion' started by deuxhero, May 16, 2014.

  1. aweigh Arcane

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    don't forget elminage original. honestly, we got off well all things considered: gothic and original are the two best of the 4 elminage games.

    elmi 2 is simply Original 1.5, it's basically an expansion pack.

    elmi 3 features the weakest (BY FAR) story, quests and chars, and the dungeon design is even a step down from elmi 2 (which as all expansion packs made do with making each dungeon more hard-core); BUT elmi 3 features introduction of ex-skills, and the item list jumps from the 650~ or so items found in elmi 1 and 2 up to whopping 800 items in elmi 3, so the strength of elmi 3 is making chars and building up parties and collecting loot.

    gothic is without a doubt the best of the 4, but as I said e: Original takes 2nd place easily with the only thing really lacking from it are the ex-skills. Reason I am even bothering with elminage 2 (mainly) is because the dungeons are much better designed than in 1 or 3 (i.e. they're way more confusing), although aside from that it adds literally nothing really new whatsoever over original.

    elmi 3's dungeons are "not bad", but they favor small areas with usually each area featuering some "trick" or "gimmick", instead of providing honest dungeon crawling. it's strength is the big increase in loot, enemy types, and addition of ex-skills.

    but gothic is a masterpiece. nothing comes close to it:

    - it has the loot
    - it has the best dungeons
    - it has the most enemies
    - and features even LESS story than any other elminage previous, focusing on dark and moody atmosphere and cryptic storytelling

    it is basically a Wizardry scenario, really. elmi 1-2-3 are Wiz-clones, while elminage gothic IS wizardry.
     
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  2. Exbelion Literate

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    Elminage gothic is without a doubt one of the best dungeon crawlers ever made, also one of the darkest and most bizarre games ever. It is also the hardest elminage game ever, which is a good thing, (dungeon crawlers are very hard) while Ibun is the easiest.
     
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  3. aweigh Arcane

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    dude.

    are you saying you seriously managed to play through ibun!?????

    I was *shocked* at how unintuitive and how badly designed everything from even just the act of walking around or equipping shit was all fucked up to high heaven.

    well, excuse me: I was shocked more first by the 20 mins before being able to move.

    later I read that the game is meant to be a light novel? either way, I don't think it's a good light novel! seriously wow, ibun is so bad.
     
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  4. Exbelion Literate

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    Well, I cant speak or read japanese, so I had to play the game using CWcheats and by checking maps on decavalley.net. I know many elminage fans consider Ibun the weakest or worst entry, but I really enjoyed it, the yokai monsters are good and the art style is good.

    The bad things are the extremely high encounter rate and there aren't many enemy varieties.
     
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  5. moraes Arbiter Patron

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    I'm playing Elminage: Original now and getting my ass handed to me by the rival party that you meet every X steps. Are you supposed to escape from them or let your characters be killed and rescue them with another party later?
     
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  6. aweigh Arcane

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    If, for whatever reason, (you grinded, you get lucky during the fight with a tarot draw or some such bullshit, etc), you think u can win then fight 'em. and win.

    if you're losing, or know you will lose, then use alchemy spell mahama to escape the battle. there is no penalty for escaping.

    you can escape the battle normally as well, btw, it's just that the spell is way better.

    (when ur thief learns to steal, those guys always have swag loot equipped for ur thief to steal. don't worry if you killed 'em 100 times already: you can fight them whenever you wish right before initiating the post-game dungeon. you'll be seeing them throughout the whole game too, probably around 7-9 unique encounters spaced throughout level "tiers"; and don't worry, the good shit to steal will be on them late-game, devs know thieves need to wait to learn pilfer skill first)

    honestly, I always just fled their asses unless I was gonna steal shit from them. don't know if there is some sort of in-game event/bonus/item/mention/dialog/etc for beating all of their unique encounters and not running away... maybe, who knows. they hound your ass in the post-game dungeon too, and man did they fucking GRIND LEVELS!
     
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  7. moraes Arbiter Patron

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    Thanks, aweigh. They talk a lot before every battle, so I just thought they where related to the main quest somehow. I'll just escape for now and kill/rob them later.
     
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  8. BlackGoat Learned

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    This game's brilliant, men. It's rare the game that forces me to actually learn the systems in order to succeed instead of just blundering through. Even Wiz 1,2,5, I felt like I finished them off without really understanding how the game works. This game has me looking shit up and optimizing, class-switching, etc. Good stuff, brilliant.

    Who carries the torch for Wizardry? Wiz1 was a perfect version of itself, and then WizV, and now ElmGothic. Who will make the more perfect Wiz?
     
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  9. Exbelion Literate

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    Wizardry IV: Return of Werdna, which is even harder than E. Gothic, I have seen reviews and its hard even for Wizardry veterans.......
     
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  10. aweigh Arcane

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    BlackGoat

    When Sir-Tech sold Wiz license in japan in the late 90's there were two companies that got it (well 4, but...):

    - the original studio who did the Wizardry Gaiden series, which were originally meant to be hand-held only (the first 3 Gaiden titles are on GB/GBC), but from entry #4 onwards (the one MrRichard999 and Helly and many others translated after years of work) "Wiz Gaiden 4: Throb of the Demon's Veiny Heart", the Gaiden titles started appearing on SNES, then PS1 ("Dimguil" being the 5th entry, even allowing porting over parties from the Game Boy title #3 and the SNES title #4)-- anyway, entry #6 came out on PS2 and was done by a completely seperate and new studio though they were "formed" by ex-members of the same original team who did the first 5 entries in the Gaiden series.

    (That entry, #6, is called Prisoner of the Battles and features zero connection to the "mythos" of entries 1-5, all of which are connected and take place in the same "universe" so to speak).

    There was never an entry #7 proper as Gaiden 6: Prisoner of the Battles was released with an accopmanying (japanese) PC software client for making new scenarios, and there was an official (as in made by the Gaiden 6 team) "expansion pack" called "The Five Ordeals" released for japanese Windows PC, and then a huge amount of fan-made scenarios...

    ...all of which are lost forever as the studio (and I assume copmany/publisher/etc) all went under when the japanese Wiz license got butt-fucked (it is now spread all over, bits of it in the hands of japanese Mobile developers and such: with the recent WizRogue shit-title the latest release).

    - The 2nd player, and probably the most important one, was Starfish SD, a small japanese studio which until then had made only sports sims and educational software (true story bro).

    They released, with Sir-Tech's approval, the non-Gaiden continuation of Wizardry in the East called "Wizardry Empire" of which:

    - Wiz Empire 1 was released by Starfish first as a Game Boy title, then about 6 months later (apparently they had been waiting for funds, I imagine) started work on a "port" for Playstation 1; however apparently they got tons more money than expected and simply made a completely new Wiz Empire "1" series title for PS1, and less than ayear later, apparently flush with cash, made an enhanced port for japanese windows PC, which is the title me, MrRichard999 and Helly are trying to translate and which is coming, for real, and human translated.

    - Wiz Empire 2, again same deal: first for Game Boy Color then a completely new Empire 2 game for PS1, and then less than a year later (this is circa 2001-2003, btw!) an enhanced remake (not port) for PC. Unlike the enhanced port of Empire 1 for PC which is the same game as the PS1 release except with better graphics; Empire 2's PC release is a bona-fide remake with extra post-game content, extra items, loads of extra bosses/enemies, etc. It's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay harder than the ps1 release (though full disclosure, i've not played the actual ps1 release so...).

    - Wiz Empire 3 came out around 2004-2005 for ps2, and then they quickly released a port (not remake) for PSP except with 1 extra post-game dungeon. This is the black sheep of the 5 Wiz Empire games (3 on console/PC, 2 on game boy) as this one was developed when Starfish SD was "re-negotiating" and trying to hang on to the Wizardry license, so the dev on this series entry suffered heavily and it features the "least amount" of everything of the 3 main Empire games. Least amount of dungeons, enemies, difficulty, items, etc.

    It's still 2000% more of a real Wiz title than anything Sir-Tech had released in decades, of course.

    - Lastly, the other two jap companies in play here were the two that were contracted to make the PS1 remakes (enhanced ports really) of the first 5 Wizardry scenarios.

    And, BTW, the PS1 remakes of the scenarios completely replace the original games for Apple II/DOS. There is absolutely no need to ever play the originals except for nostalgia. The Ps1 remakes even offer the option to turn off all auto-mapping, revert dumapic to coordinates only, change all dungeon graphics to wire-frame and change all enemy sprites to the ones used for the DOS releases.

    (the orchestral score can also be turned off by lowering the volume on your devices, although unfortunately there is no option to emulate floppy drive disk access grinding or pc monitor beeps).

    Oh, and there was also another company that was contracted to do a port of Wizardry scenario 6 for Super Nintendo and it came out amazing. I consider it a clear replacement/enhancement over the DOS version of the game, even if (unlike the ps1 remakes) it is slightly easier overall.

    Exbelion

    you can go to any emu site right now and download the Wiz 4-5 remake disc, which features options to put it all in english, and play wiz scenario 4 right now. be sure to disable auto-mapping to make it as hard-core as possible!

    Dorarnae has played and finished the entirety of Wiz 4, though i haven't.
     
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  11. aweigh Arcane

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    here is video of Dorarnae playing through ps1 ver. of Wiz 4. (although he is using auto-mapping). The orchestral soundtrack for Wiz 4 remake is fucking amazing, full of bombastic horn sections blaring. Fucking gets the blood pumping.

     
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  12. Dorarnae Learned

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    I haven't finish wizardry 4 ;(
    I made it to the cube and didn't have some items, so I got stuck there (you can't get out of there once you enter...), I'll have to re-try a new game someday.
     
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  13. Exbelion Literate

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    I heard there are some enemies that can steal mandatory items, which adds up to the insane difficulty.
     
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  14. Exbelion Literate

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    I didn't like Elminage 3 that much because they recicled music and enemies from Original, while 2 had a new battle soundtrack.

    However, I loved the sound load and dungeon load feature, too bad the dungeon feature wasnt carried onto Gothic.
     
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  15. Gunnar Learned

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    This happened to me and caused an epic rage quit. They were thieves and the item was a hacksaw. Still mad about it :mad:
     
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  16. Dorarnae Learned

    Dorarnae
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    you eventually get a black box or something to store some item.
     
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  17. aweigh Arcane

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    curiously enough, after hundreds of hours of elminage and elminage and elminage; and of course, ibag's tower as well... you know what the single handiest ex-skill / random "thing" i learned while going thru Ibag's?



    the ex-skill "Chi Wave" is absolutely, inarguably the absolute best offensive pick for an ability. the damage it deals is calculated straight from the character's equipped weapons, which means: my level 200-ish Werebeast Cleric would deal 600-900 damage using chi wave inside ibag's tower-- but, my devilish lord was dealing sometimes almost close to 1700 points of damage, give or take.



    the chi wave itself is L-ranged, which makes it fantastic for giving to back-row party members or to "casters" and such, and there are plenty of very high-statistic Staffs, Bows, Whips and other crap to equip these back-row "caster" types with (and of course shit like aura punch, or philosopher's stone), in order to make sure the chi wave deals hundreds of points of damage.



    lastly, the kicker is that the chi wave is non-attributable damage AND it cannot be swallow returned by enemies! That means it's a much better pick than taking Swallow Killer (since that one is not L-ranged, and its damage comes from your char's standard melee attack, which can be great... or crap). The chi wave is guaranteed, solid damage that can't be resisted by spell resistance of special move resistances and it can't be swallow returned.



    Since it's a special ability it bypasses armor class as well. Not sure if it bypasses enemy AC COMPLETELY, but i'll use this example:



    versus Belial my dev lord's normal attacks were not great without using spells, right, HOWEVER one use of his Chi Wave was 300-450 damage, GUARANTEED, every time, without fail... against enemies like belial, and others, having that option/guarantee is amazing.



    if anything i think chi wave is fucking overpowered. personally i would vote to nerf it, or perhaps not have it be L-ranged at least, because as it is now it is the #1 best offensive skill.



    (the other #1 skill is of course, BRACE. that is simply on another level).



    Other ex-skills I vote to be surprisingly very, very helpful, but simply not as good as going Brace/Chi-Wave are:



    - Shout: i had this on my faiery bishop and that fucker was inflicting Fright on enemies by mid-game all the way to final floors of Ibag's tower. Frightened enemies will have a 50% chance to "not take an action" during their turn. This shit is quite handy!

    (Note: i tried using "CURSE", which does same but versus 1 single enemy, and i found it has the same overall success rate as SHOUT, but since it is not group-affecting... it is immediately then relegated to useless).



    - LEVEL DRAIN. seriously. drain an enemy of up to -3 levels and watch ALLLL THEIR STATS/ATTRIBUTES fall down the drain. also makes it super easy ot steal items from them as well. Don't know if it lowers the summon resistance but i doubt it (think summ resist is fixed on char-gen).



    All shit that is tied to levels such as: special resistance UP, phys atk power UP and magical power UP, as well as AC decline, combative instict, ETC, ETC... all that gets lowered by 3 levels. Especially useful to lower the enemy's chance to behead you.



    Those i think are the best, most useful ex-skills in Gothic. I would give an honorary shout-out to the one where you Absorb a Spell casted on you (and you then gain +1 rank 1 MP); however the +1 MP is WHATEVER the real important thing is:



    it is a skill which has a random chance to activate whenever you are targeted with a spell by the enemy; i.e. this means you will always have, throughout the entire game, a dumb 50% chance to simply "absorb" an enemy spell which could be anything from an enterook mista to a petrification spell, etc. Or an instant death spell.



    (BTW, i found that skill works best coupled w/ an Alchemist char, as they use their rank 1 Alchemist Spells, i.e. the breath spell Pomadoom, THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE GAME. This menas they will _always_ enjoy a "random" recharge of their rank 1 spells, leaving aside for the moment the fact that he/she now enjoys a "dumb" 50% enemy spell avoidance, heh).
     
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  18. aweigh Arcane

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    Exbelion Dorarnae Courtier

    so i found out what the enemy routines are, where they are, how they work and here's the facts! Obviously my perfect example enemy is, none other than... SKILL VINGGG babeh.

    Skill ving has a behavioral routine of number "14". what does that mean? well in the game files, routine 14 has the following "notes" written on it:
    The actual "routine" is, obviously, just strings of code, but as luck will have it next to each routine was a good sized programmer's breakdown (in jap), and this is the google translation of routine 14.

    uh, there are 36 routines, btw, soooo if you're reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally interested PM me and i'll send the game files. But i just wanted to post Skillving's routine, hehe.

    EDIT: Oh, and yes of course, it is 100% possible/doable to edit existing enemy routines and simply... change their numbers around. Give all enemies the routines only reserved for especially tough enemies, etc.

    Or not, whatever. Who cares. I am thinking of increasing even more my difficulty mod for elminage: original (PSP)... already added to all enemies armor class and doubled their health dice; thinking now of giving all elmi: original enemies the "best" routines possible insofar as the e: original routines are concerned (there are less than in gothic, obviously).
     
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  19. aweigh Arcane

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    er, just wanted to double-post real quick cos... there are 2 routines that specifically target female party members. GASP!

    (joking aside, that is extremely cool). Wow... my mind is double-blown: gender matters for real in elminage gamez.
     
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  20. aweigh Arcane

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    by the way, i JUST realized that these exact routines are what govern summon actions. if you trap skillving, he will go through his routine 14 and nothing else.

    HMMm.... HMMM.... btw, routine 63 (i.e. changing a monster's routine number to 63) = player input. already tried it out and... well, it works.

    Incarnation has the most amount of routines and half of them are special-made. no big deal really but it would be funny to give every enemy in the game all of incarnations routines.

    basically incarnation's routines go through what items/spells/skills it has then it assesses whether to attack, heal or protect his enemy companions (he has none, but bear with me); there's also one in there that gagues if/not/then to attack front or back row, or to go after player chars who use a FIGHT command or chars who use a SKILL/SPELL command.

    really interesting shit. your gender (male/female) and even the action you take each round (atk/spell/skill/etc) can/will change the enemy's choice of behavior routine!

    pretty neat.

    (oh, and of course amount of hit points your chars have left is a HUGE trigger/value enemy routines are constantly scanning!)
     
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  21. Exbelion Literate

    Exbelion
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    Too bad Nordetanit can't be summoned, he has higu chances of inflicting level drain and status effects
     
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  22. aweigh Arcane

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    so, basically, i am literally only playing through the 3ds remix port just to clear ibag's tower a 3rd time (1st time on PC but left game for months after frustration in floors 10-12 + life stuff); then returned with a vengeance and started a completely new game / new party, and with THAT party (which was built from the word GO to be an ibag's tower party, i.e. super-duper min-maxed to maxed) i finally beat incarnation and finally got that book of secrets and the sad ghostly woman cried on my dick.

    that was actually not that long ago (i left that party waiting on the 20th floor of the tower while i started playing the other elminage games... AND also playing the 3ds port); so that party was waiting on the 20th floor for almost 3-4 months. i went in and beat incarnation's ass tho. i didn't record it or anything because i want to beat the incarnation version 2.0 boss in the 3ds version of the game...

    already sunked into it around 60 hours, right now clearing ice caves / wind cavern and then on to the first demonic looking underground church dungeon.

    so far, gotta say, i am really enjoying the changes in the 3ds version. they are all extremely minor, and almost all of them can be reporuced on the pc version w/ mods but... the thing i'm enjoying most of all, surprisingly, is the incredibly easy-to-use 3ds dual-screen menu(s). makes navigating and playing elminage million times more enjoyable.

    originally i had no idea they had also added 6 whole new npc's who join you (they don't have any story, but they join; just like wyndham the demon child in the 1st dungeon that you recruit). so, i was starting to doubt myself, starting to think i just didn't have it in me to go through elminage gothic and specifically to clear the Tower a fucking THIRD TIME... but i learned about those 6 recruits so i have been motivated now by making it my mission to beat incarnation 2.0 (it's actually a completely different monster, but it's not important, also his weapons are fucking ridiculous) using only the 6 3ds version NPCs who u can recruit.

    so far i have devilish female valkyrie, devilish ninja (changed him to thief) i.e. good ole MYSTERIOUS CHILD from PC version; gota magic doll recruit that is a Shaman by doing a super short quest that was shoehorned inside the Tree dungeon...

    still have 2 Ogre race brothers to get, one is in ice cave and the other in the wind cavern and they are a Hunter / Brawler team, and the last recruit is a Goblin race female who is Servant/Herbalist class who is waiting for me to give her rings before she joins.

    it's gonna be tough, no dubt about it: those 6 means i won't have a Bishop, and I won't have any dedicated casters or a fucking Alchemist.

    - magic doll shaman
    - devilish valk
    - devilish ninja (now thief, but can knife into ninja so whatever)
    - ogre hunter
    - ogre brawler
    - goblin servant/herbalist

    YIKES. No Lord, no samurai, no alchemist!!!!!!!!!! no bishop!!!!!!!!!! i have never played any elminage party without a bishop/alchemist combo (i can't stand leaving them benched).

    This was the spark of motivation i needed to slog through all the dungeons and beat incarnation's buddy's ass once again. A handicap!
     
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  23. Exbelion Literate

    Exbelion
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    Have you managed to defeatthe three new bosses at 20F? The woman has a 50% chance of beheading, which is insane (I saw a video on youtube from a user who defeated all 3 bosses in like 20 minutes, which is amazing
     
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  24. aweigh Arcane

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    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
     
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  25. aweigh Arcane

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    no, cos i'm about half-way through. like i said, i'm clearing ice caves / wind cavern. EVENTUALLY i'll beat aaalll the asses added to the 20th floor.

    Look at the stats of the new landlords:

    - "Force" has 63 in all attributes (game maximum), -93 AC, and lord knows what else I didn't even finish investigating.
    - Shippinusufen (whatever) is some sort of Humanoid-somewhat-looking divine warrior as he is packing the new Divine Sword, Divine Shield, Divine Orb, and Divine Fist. The stats on those items are just completely ridiculous, with the divine sword (which is main-hand) easily being TWICE as good as the 2-handed Holy Sabre you have to steal from the Apostate enemies inside the tower.
    - the third part of this trio is something called "Stella", and i have no idea what she/it is but from her inventory she is probably another "divine type humanoid", except this time she is a spell caster and not a fighter: her items include Stella's Wand (just imagine the best wand ever, then triple it), Stella's Shoes, Stella's Clothing, and... you know, I assume one can STEAL all this divine shit from these two bozos but both of them are around Level 2500+, and they're literallly the last thing you're gonna fight in the game...

    don't really see what's the point of even bothering to code those new items if there's no more game to use the items in (after beating them AND stealing them, heh).

    Have no idea what "Force" is but most likely it is some type of straight-up God-being, not a humanoid, as he doesn't have anything in his inventory.

    So there's those 3, plus Incarnation herself received stat boosts, though that won't make any difference. Now she's 5 percent susceptible to sleep instead of 15 percent! WOW! heh. something like that.
     
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