Incline Elminage Gothic (former Japan only dungeon crawler)

[aweigh]

I've only watched footage, like this:


The art looks fucking beautiful and the score sounds freaking amazing. I'll probably give it a try someday.

EDIT: BTW, ISO Zone just closed, and they were the only place I know of that had the ISO's for Wizardry Chronicle and Wizardry Empire 1 and 2.

I have Wiz Emp 1 and 2 saved but I didn't have Wiz Chronicle on my HDD currently.

 

[TigerKnee]

http://www.theisozone.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=74725

The good news is that they just handed the database to another website so go there instead

 

[Miner 2049er]

Another Iso site I have frequently visited is NICOBLOG and there a some more. They have an english patched Wizardry Empire II and some few more Wizardry titles, but no Chronicles though.

BrotherFrank:
I would think it's no bad idea to start with Original and play Gothic afterwards. By the description of fellow codexers, Gothic builds up on Original and I can imagine, if you're used to the difficulty of Gothic going back to Original, it is leaving you a bit cold and underwhelmed. That way you can fully appreciate two great games.

And a blobber recommendation: 7th Dragon 2020 for the PSP (or the PPSSPP emulator). It's a gem with one of the best combat systems I have ever experienced. It has great synergy effects between the characters. Like Starcrawlers, but more and stronger. The exploration is done from an isometric perspective, but combat is like Wizardry, Might & Magic and the likes in first person view. And you shouldn't forget Lords Of Xulima, too.

 

[Matador]

Best blobber ever? I really am intrigued. Can put up with a rough start if game picks up after.
Officially leaning towards gothic then.

I haven't tried wiz 1-5, only read about them through lps.
But wiz 8 was definitely my groove, feel free to hit me up with some recommendations.

Will give wiz 1 a try at some point if only to see what the game that started the whole genre is like.

If you are searching for grid based blobbers in the vein of Wizardry I can also recommend you Stranger on sword city. Modern and accesible, good art and graphics, sound mechanics, nice character and party development. It's not perfect, and lacks the magic of other titans but is a very good game and is very easy to get into (tutorials, automap, good UI, middle ground between permadeath and save scum with limited lives per character...).

Another Iso site I have frequently visited is NICOBLOG and there a some more. They have an english patched Wizardry Empire II and some few more Wizardry titles, but no Chronicles though.

BrotherFrank:
I would think it's no bad idea to start with Original and play Gothic afterwards. By the description of fellow codexers, Gothic builds up on Original and I can imagine, if you're used to the difficulty of Gothic going back to Original, it is leaving you a bit cold and underwhelmed. That way you can fully appreciate two great games.

And a blobber recommendation: 7th Dragon 2020 for the PSP (or the PPSSPP emulator). It's a gem with one of the best combat systems I have ever experienced. It has great synergy effects between the characters. Like Starcrawlers, but more and stronger. The exploration is done from an isometric perspective, but combat is like Wizardry, Might & Magic and the likes in first person view. And you shouldn't forget Lords Of Xulima, too.

That 7th dragon sounds sweet. Thanks!

 

[BrotherFrank]

Cheers all, starting with Elminage Original. Gothic after that.

Starting party: Fighter/Valkyrie/Thief/Mage/Bishop/Alchemist

 

[Matador]

Cool, keep us posted. Don't forget that the thief can steal equipment from monsters when he hit some levels, I don't remember how many. There is some very good stuff to steal.

If you have a hard time, think about changing the bishop for a cleric for the extra healing. I won't spoil anything more. Have fun!

 

[Haplo]

High Mastery abilities come at level 26 for base classes, so he still has ways to go...
Yeah, Bishop is very slooow, but he also has a Valkyrie,. who can do the healing duties decently.

 

[aweigh]

Bishop is, at the end of the day, kind of just convenience since by level 10 and onwards your mages will have learnt the teleportation spell which allows returning to town easily.

Alchemists however... the only criticism I have of Elminage is that they made Alchemists simply too essential. You CAN play without enchanting and crafting but doing so is only gimping yourself intentionally.

 

[BrotherFrank]

Cleared 1st quest in tutorial dungeon (was REALLY nice of them to give you that hp refill fountain and the Avi statue for some easy early xp) and have been visiting the first floor of of other maps since and mapping out what I can before spell uses run out.

Went through what I'm guessing are the usual noob mistakes:
-20 mins to figure out how to assign fame as well as how to use alchemist/forging
-not realizing you have to rest in town to level up. First tpk came about 5 mins in when got surprised attacked by a french maid and her 3 pet rats. They ate my 8hp party alive.
Have yet to stumble upon that enemy group again for some payback.
-still trying to figure out if there's anywhere i can dump items. Ingredients starting to accumulate and got limited inventory space.

Find inventory management super clunky but otherwise liking things so far. Monster and spell variety is nice even this early in the game so combat is p.interesting.

That said...Wtf is up with levelling up?
If it wasn't for me save scumming like a mofo, my fighter would have gotten nothing but 1hp at each level up
He has one job:to be an hp sponge. So of course, game seems to love trolling me for his lvls up, takes me 4-6 reloads each time to get a different result. Maybe because I made him 40yo?
But yeh if had played this game ironman my fighter would have lower hp then my mage.
Am biting the bullet on my other characters but they don't seem to have same problem though can't help but wonder why they seem to lose and gain stats randomly.
Poor bishop, rolled a 39 for her abilities, so started with 20 int/20 wis. Now is 19/19.


Otherwise the Valk is mvp of my party, pulling every duty except magical damage dealing. Valks are just awesome in every blobber it seems.
My Bishop lags behind despite high stats because she runs out of steam quickly this early but I'm hoping once I reach teen levels she will be worth it.
Tbh if there's anyone I'm considering swapping out, it would be the fighter. But I guess between savescum shielding him from low hp gains and that fighters usually come in their own once they get good gear at mid game, he's just like the bishop in that I need to toughen it up until later levels.

 

[Haplo]

Yeah, the Stat randomness is annoying. However regarding the HPs, you shouldn't worry about it much after a few levels. As the HP TOTAL gets rolled on every level up. So after a few 1s you're bound to get some nice rolls that will compensate. You can get a lot of HP on one level up.
But now, after you've been maxing your rolls, you're likely to get some poor results.

 

[Miner 2049er]

You can use that Avi statue to level new and class changed characters by bringing only two characters to the fight.The rookie and a heavy hitter doing the work for him.

 

[aweigh]

Good memories whooping Avi's ass. Also when your Thief learns class mastery and can steal go back and steal Avi Statue's gear.

 

[Matador]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=321865136

This guide says that weapon behead chance stacks with Ninja innate beheading chance. I though this was on Elminage original and removed on gothic. Am I wrong?

"Weapons keep certain attributes to themselves, such as the chance to inflict status effects or hurt Ghosts, and are applied only when that specific weapon connects. Chance to Behead will stack with a Ninja's innate increased Chance to Behead, but not with other Chances to Behead. Positive damage to enemy type modifiers will default to the weakest you have equipped. Buffs cast in battle will stack with equipment values."

 

[aweigh]

I remember that in Gothic the behead chance from weapons is additive with the level-increasing behead chance of the Ninja class; the level-increasing behead % of the ninja class maxes out at 50%, btw, in Gothic.

The only way one can reach the silly beheading chances (70% and up) that one would have in Original by mid-game is only possible by farming +2 Ore materials in the final post-game dungeon Ibag's Tower, which costs 1 million GP a pop to farm (you need to buy a special weapon/tool inside the Cave of the Ancients post-game dungeon which costs 1 million GP, and this specific weapon/tool is what allows you to farm +2 Ore materials inside the final dungeon). With +1 ore materials you ain't gonna reach the high echelons of behead, and honestly that's how it should be.

EDIT: For comparison's sake in Original the level-increasing behead chance for ninja class was not only FASTER-per-level than in Gothic, but maxed out at something like 80% or 90%, something ridiculous like that; and additionally the beheading-chance bonus % from ninja gear in Original was also Additive to the level-increasing %, including specific armor and other armor-parts. In Gothic only the % from weapons is additive.

EDIT 2x: yes, I know that armor has defensive %'s instead of offensive ones so that the majority of armor pieces would provide a defense AGAINST beheading %, however there are ninja-specific pieces that give offensive and/or both. Not really something worth making a build around since in Original the natural level-increasing % of the ninja behead was stupid-broken.

 

[aweigh]

Argh, i'm getting Elminage itch again... goddamnit, I need to clear my backlog instead of replaying Gothic for the millionth time!

 

[Matador]

Thanks, Aweigh. I got the Elminage Gothic itch playing Wizardry 2 last days.

For me the beheading being overpowered is the kind of thing I like about these games. Maybe it was too much in original, but here it's fine. For me having petty abilities to balance difficulty is decline. It's better to give the players powerful tools, and then make the enemies and encounters nasty dangerous motherfuckers. More fun to figure out how to abuse my stuff avoiding the broken stuff the enemies have.

Last time I played it I got to Afum Zar light cave and quit because I had just completed Elminage original and Persona 5, and I was a little tired of Dungeon crawlers. Yesterday I went back where I left, completing Afum Zar Light cave, and what a blast. This game has the best semirandom crafted encounters, combat and party development in any RPG, ever. I also like the loot, and the flexible and easy crafting.

I'm fresh to complete this wonderful game this time. My party:

- Human Ninja Lvl 17 (previously thief) . Kunai and dawn sword.
- Werebeast Brawler Lvl 19 . Hawk Talons.
- Human Lord Lvl 18 (previously cleric). Flamberge
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
- Elf Bishop Lvl 15 (previously mage).
- Dracon Samurai Lvl 16 (previously mage). Killer spear.
- Human Alchemist Lvl18.

I have more characters created around those levels while I was experimenting with the game, but for now I'm going ahead with this 6.

 

[Haplo]

Weapon behead chances are nice but before really grinding the post-game crafting, what aweigh described, you can recruit monster adventurers cought by the summoner to your party and their behead chance will stack with ninja's level bonus. Dragonfly and Master Ninja are available pretty early and have 25 and 30% respectively. I prefer Dragonfly, who is easier to capture early and also boasts 35% Charm chance (plus a few other 5%s). Master Ninja also has a few other 10%s.
Brainsly fish might be the best ninja candidate with a full suite of strong status defences, but is only available in the post game (and apart from behead doesn't get other status affliction chances).

 

[aweigh]

Yeah, you can do crazy stuff with monster adventurers.

 

[Matador]

Beaten Cyclanos at the third attempt. He only summoned 2 vampire lords so it was harder because I had no time to buff myself before having to face him. I managed to put him to sleep while I killed the vampires. I buffed and debuffed to oblivion and then hit him with all my power while he was dreaming. The fight would have been even easier if I had got the skill to stop turn HP recovery.

What an amazing ride and this has only begun. Now on to the postgame!

EDIT: went to the volcano to prove luck, and got this in 30 minutes.

 

[Matador]

Finished Soldier of the Giant Gods. A little underwhelming after some nice dungeons like Ishmag underground sanctum or the Royal Tomb, but had some good loot and introduced a few nasty foes like the demon lords. The level design was bland.

Now I'm going for Cave of the Ancients.

 

[Dorateen]

I rather enjoyed the Soldier of the Gods. If I'm not mistaken, its eight levels represent the deepest dungeon encountered in the game up to that point. The concept of exploring the body of a giant was an interesting theme. And the overarching quest of the dungeon, collecting the various body parts to solve a mystery. Wasn't this the dungeon that also introduced mind-flayer type enemies?

 

[aweigh]

Cave of the Ancients is my absolute favorite dungeon. I love EVERYTHING about it. CotA is an amazing love-letter to Wizardry and Wizardry Empire, and it is full of cryptic references to both.

Seriously, I can't overstate how much I love CotA, and I also love it's special music theme. You can just really feel the Tender-Loving-Care that Starfish SD poured into dungeon's design.

 

[Haplo]

I remember also not being too impressed about SotGG, apart from its size. But even the size wasn't too impressive, when you've spent a lot of time figuring your way trough the 6 levels of Hastrana air caves before.
Well, as I don't have this long blobber history, CotA was just... weird for me. But it's not very long and worth enduring in order to get to the final test. And Ibag's Tower combat challenges do not disappoint.

 

[aweigh]

Ibag's Tower is something else, that's for sure. It will test you. You literally have to beat Obi Wan Kenobi in order to even be allowed inside!

 

[Matador]

I rather enjoyed the Soldier of the Gods. If I'm not mistaken, its eight levels represent the deepest dungeon encountered in the game up to that point. The concept of exploring the body of a giant was an interesting theme. And the overarching quest of the dungeon, collecting the various body parts to solve a mystery. Wasn't this the dungeon that also introduced mind-flayer type enemies?

Yes, their encounters with their whip demon friends attacking back rows were fun. If they didn't behead my guys, my charmed ninja would do it.

Also: