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Dungeon Rats - first impressions and general feedback

Parabalus

Arcane
Joined
Mar 23, 2015
Messages
17,432
- Sleeping god was unkillable for my full combat build character. Makes sense as he's a god I guess, but it felt cheap, as the big problem was getting knocked down every single turn. Had max block and armor penalty of 20. There was probably something I could have done to win, but it was 2 emasculating to have to reload after decimating everything that crossed his path. Was wading through legionaries like a champ before that point.

Annoying to know that if my character had used Bolas he would have killed him in a few turns. I saw Eyestabber do that, should be changed IMO, if it hasn't been already. Bolas: the real god killer.

-Faction reputation was bad. Charisma 4 character so I got a bad ending. P. insulting to read that my slayer character was "not a good fighter, promoted for political reasons not battlefield accomplishments" I guess this is how the PC is perceived by game world. It's annoying that Charisma 4 characters cannot get good endings, but this is fairly realistic (or maybe I missed a few Rep gains?).

I got the Berserk ending with this character, and liked it much more than the "real ending".

I had no ideas bolas affected him and I killed him "legit" several times. Should be changed really, seems retarded.
From my experience he will kill you in 2 rounds no matter what, so you gotta kill him in one round, which kinda cucks defensive fighters.

IIRC you can get "good" guard ending with 4 CHA but you need to be guard all the way and hit every gain.

Fagillio, the Merchant



Was very fun. Interesting to see how these men with money set all the events into motion. The game gets weaker toward the end, and it's much more apparent here playing the Merchant questline. Same complaint about being tasked to find a temple. Not sure why I was asked. Should have some faction specific option to hire an expedition. Fagillio was forced to master Lore in order to find temple, which I thought was out of character.

I've read a lot of criticism of non-combat play already, so not much point giving mine, but it is definitely less satisfying.

Not sure why you'd HAVE to master lore, since you can go through Hellgate+Temple by talking. Lore kinda comes naturally tho since you have SP to spare.

I just want to post about the game bros, but the reason I logged on was to ask some Dungeon Rats questions, generate some discussion, not enough stuff to read about it on the internet. If anyone has an opinion on the following please respond, I'm playing on Ironman with AoD settings:

Playing with an 8Charisma PC, is it worth it to go 9 for Yngvar? Is Yngvar a BRO? Is his jail story interesting? No spoilers pls. Seems like a good back up in case Marcus gets killed.

I'm trying really hard to optimize SP gain. Can I drag Cyrus through the game and get his Alchemy up to 10 before meeting the Sword/Bow guy, or should I just let him kill the ants in the first area and then kick him out for the Barca fight and everything past that? I think he'll die if I continue into the Dredger's territory, and since it's Iron Man I'm leaning toward leaving him down at 4 Alchemy and never using him again.

Should I run with a party of sacrifices for the Dredger fights? I can't clear them without taking heavy damage and getting my men killed. But it seems like a waste, too. Not sure.

I'm thinking party composition should go PC/Marcus (all game or until death)/Ardomir----> Roxana (Ardomir is technically wasted SP, but he's too useful in those early fights to leave out)/ Crafting and Alchemy leveling slot (Charisma 9 can slot in Yngvar when you finish...?)

Supposedly there is a skymetal construct fight that kicks everyones ass, would the construct you get be helpful in that fight?

I think it is optimal to take down Barca at the first opportunity so we can access Hieron and better characters sooner, but when should I clear the Ant Queen section? Will holding off until I have my final party or Ismail leave me under powered for the coming fights? Thinking of doing the section with only 3 characters, PC/Marcus/Hieron. If we take along Cyrus we can get Alchemy 6, but with that much invested I'd feel obligated to get him all the way to 10.

Really not enough discussion on this game. Took me many searches to dig up a coherent answer to how this "healing machine" works. (You do not need all three canisters to operate the machine. Each canister may be used to gain one (1) stat point)

Farthest I've gotten is final Dredger fight. Not asking for tactics on it. Thinking of using Quintus to replace Marcus during those fights, as losing him won't hurt nearly as much, and he can make himself very useful before he dies with a decent shield. Just seems hard to keep men alive here.

I think I'm going to reroll now that I know how the healing machine works. Currently 6/8/7/6/5/8

going to try

6/8/6/6/5/9

or

6/8/6/5/7/8

(use some of the additional skill points to increase synergy weapon and even out the Perception penalty, should be a net gain)

or

6/8/6/5/6/9

(same idea but Charisma 9)

The game has 3 difficulty modes, but the real hard mode seems to be having less than 4 companions. Solo might be easier, though. I like how the game rewards you for flawless victories with the ration healing system. Always trying to not just win, but win better, use less resources, (though, sometimes that means using a consumable).

I killed Roxanna on my first run, didn't know she could even join, so I was with Marcus +Yngvar, with 3d wheel Hiernon/Ismail only to max Crafting and Alchemy to 10, using Silas as filler, until I got secret NPC.
Don't think 9 CHA is worth it for Yngvar, better go to 10 then. If you're going for high cha best to use xbow and drop str to 4 so you have more points to play with. I used 4 10 4 8 4 10 for first run, probably better 4 8(+2) 4 10 4 10 with knowledge of the healing machine.

Construct is a great as a meatshield for meteorite since he can't be healed.

Never liked doing Barca before ant queen, either solo or with a party, since you get bronze weapons and a bunch of SP from deep caverns. If you could take him down with 3 thrashes which you sacrifice so you get all the SP then take Hiernon to clear Deep Caves so he gets them to rush crafting it makes sense, but you are still blocked by forge quality so it's a minor gain.

I wouldn't advise Ironman with <4, or at all for first playthrough, there are a lot of "bullshit" mechanics which can ruin your run, like wrongly remembering which of the 6 enemies uses a a bomb or net, etc.
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,547
Anyone play through the game with Spear/Block? I know that Spear/Dodge is better but I was thinking about it because if you don't recruit Yngvar, it is hard to justify having a blocker in your party who is not your main character. Seems like the path that would make you play longest with a crude weapon and then to add insult to injury, when you find a decent replacement you can't get back to your forge to craft an upgraded version without first finishing one of the tougher fights in the game (IMO). Eventually you get a great weapon. Just wondering if anyone has an opinion on whether the crappy early game is worth the effort.
 

Geckabor

Savant
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
173
Alright so I decided to finally give this game a go and I'm not too far yet, but having quite a lot of fun for now! There's something really satisfying in fast attacking people with little to no armor with a sword and getting bleed effects aswell. There's one encounter I'm having problems with (it might be an optional one). There's these 3 scorpions (one stronger than the other 2) and I can manage to kill one but afterwards I just get demolished. Are there any general tips against them? Some additional info: I'm running a sword/dodge user and using Marcus(hammer/dodge) and some old guy who uses a crossbow and critical strike. Playing on murderous psychopath.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
With scorps - you need run to bottleneck, fight them one by one, use Wait, then hit legs first turn - to get better chance to hit, then arterial or arms, something like that.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
8,600
Location
Deutschland
Alright so I decided to finally give this game a go and I'm not too far yet, but having quite a lot of fun for now! There's something really satisfying in fast attacking people with little to no armor with a sword and getting bleed effects aswell. There's one encounter I'm having problems with (it might be an optional one). There's these 3 scorpions (one stronger than the other 2) and I can manage to kill one but afterwards I just get demolished. Are there any general tips against them? Some additional info: I'm running a sword/dodge user and using Marcus(hammer/dodge) and some old guy who uses a crossbow and critical strike. Playing on murderous psychopath.
Always have enough antidote. Never just eat the poison dmg, use antidote to prevent it entirely. In this game your HP are a FINITE resource. Healing supplies are limited. If you don't want to discover mid game that you have to start over because you can no longer heal up your party avoid as much damage as you can. That said
1) you can come back later when you're more powerful and better equipped or
2) trigger combat, immediately retreat over the bridge and then to the side where they have to come at you 1 at a time, a small one will always be quickest in pursuit, so if you have ranged characters you can have Marcus tank the small one while you kill the elder scorpion with ranged weapons, put all points in Marcus dodge (up to 10) before you start putting points elsewhere
 

Geckabor

Savant
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
173
Thanks for the help! The tips worked and I beat them. I might have to restart anyway since I didn't skill any crafting skills (just want to try a playthrough without them) but I gave my character 10 intelligence, so using those extra skill points for some alchemy/crafting seems to be the smartest choice. For some reason I didn't really mind restarting in AoD aswell just to try some things slightly differently.

EDIT: Alright so I reached my limit at the third battle against Roxana. Zero rations, my character is at 1 HP and yeah... I'm a goner. So, I think I'm going to try to skill alchemy in my new playthrough instead of having an unnecessarily high swords skill, and my DEX was the lowest of all my companions aswell, so I might as well drop the 5 CON I had to 4 and take an extra point in DEX instead. Let's hope it goes better this time.
 
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ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
Thanks for the help! The tips worked and I beat them. I might have to restart anyway since I didn't skill any crafting skills (just want to try a playthrough without them) but I gave my character 10 intelligence, so using those extra skill points for some alchemy/crafting seems to be the smartest choice. For some reason I didn't really mind restarting in AoD aswell just to try some things slightly differently.

EDIT: Alright so I reached my limit at the third battle against Roxana. Zero rations, my character is at 1 HP and yeah... I'm a goner. So, I think I'm going to try to skill alchemy in my new playthrough instead of having an unnecessarily high swords skill, and my DEX was the lowest of all my companions aswell, so I might as well drop the 5 CON I had to 4 and take an extra point in DEX instead. Let's hope it goes better this time.

Wouldn't dump CON so much unless you're a ranged CHAR, it affect too many things in combat (HP, DOT from bleeding and poison and even defense to a somewhat lesser degree) and DR is all about combat, you'd be too squishy. 10 INT seems pretty wasted to me on a non-solo character, there are some good choices in companions for alchemy/crafting bots (you don't have to use them alll the time, just when you need something made).

If you're having some trouble with ranged characters consider equipping a shield as even dodge characters benefit from vsRanged defense they provide (though you'll have to live with some THC loss usually).

Alchemy is a great choice, as far as I'm concerned it's by far the best skill when it comes to DR. Gives great value for every level (as early as 2 which allows you to create basic healing potions) and gives you an answer for everything the game throws at you. Crafting is still very good (especially because sharpening stones are aplenty) but when every mook and his brother wields a powerful crafted weapon and wears an armor to match it's not nearly the game changer it was in AoD i feel.

Also, always remember to flank and avoid being flanked. It can provide siginificant THC bonuses, with a high DEX character if your attack rating is too low sometimes it pays off to circle around enemy for a nice backstab.
 

Fenix

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 18, 2015
Messages
6,458
Location
Russia atchoum!
If you're having some trouble with ranged characters consider equipping a shield as even dodge characters benefit from vsRanged defense they provide (though you'll have to live with some THC loss usually).
I think it was patched out?
Not sure, something in last patches.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
I think it was patched out?
Not sure, something in last patches.

You're right, I just checked and no extra ranged defense in the defense rating during combat. Figures there'd be some changes, didn't played the game in quite a while.

Can't say I disagree, it did feel somewhat exploity, especially with dodge being already so strong (at the beginning atleast).
 

mushaden

Scholar
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
334
[crystal caves] It's focking gay that you can't end the combat with the three plants and the sclopendoptera if you kill the bug and then walk past the range of the plants. I know you have to clear a path for your posse but still, at least let me heal scum or something. I understand that this would probably be difficult to implement with the way the skill points are rewarded at the end of a fight, I'm just frustrated, but not beaten!
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
[crystal caves] It's focking gay that you can't end the combat with the three plants and the sclopendoptera if you kill the bug and then walk past the range of the plants. I know you have to clear a path for your posse but still, at least let me heal scum or something. I understand that this would probably be difficult to implement with the way the skill points are rewarded at the end of a fight, I'm just frustrated, but not beaten!

Agree but plants aren't that tough though usually. You just use hit and run on them, they have no attacks of opportunity and their melee attack is far more powerful than ranged. Maybe if you have low CON and ran out of antidotes.
 

Geckabor

Savant
Joined
Mar 6, 2016
Messages
173
Using berserk potions is also really effective against plants, since the loss of accuracy doesn't really matter against them.
 
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mushaden

Scholar
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
334
Hard for a low CON solo dodger, but I managed it. This is certainly a fun game, almost feels longer than AoD :troll:
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
How did I fucking wait sooo long to play this?!

Yes, I've died already. I'm teetering between dropping DR in order to play AoD for the first time (I've never played it), but by no means does this mean I'm not liking DR; simply the matter of knowing that if I am loving DR this way, AoD will be 10x better.

PRE-Emptive EDIT: And here is why I never bothered playing AoD:

- I simply wasn't that interested in a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure Game cum RPG hybrid filled with text
- I (am still to this day) stupefied that there is no walking and instead teleporting from script trigger to the next trigger
- And lastly, and yes, hate me, I can take it: no party members. I simply could not believe it would be worth my time to play a single-char TB game.

I thought it would be boring as fuck, and for me combat is the single most important part of the RPG template as it is what will keep bring me back.

Happy to eat my words now after playing DR and seeing the depth in the combat system. AoD can absolutely coast by without party members on that TB system.

(But I still dislike not having some form of companions in my TB games, or any RPG games for that matter, and I find it humorous VD gave in to consumer demand and made Colony Ship a party-based RPG simply because of the non-stop raging butt-hurt over AoD's one-man-army/diplomat).

Also I kind of disliked VD from the fallout from the Codex Rebellion, since months of his Dictatorship and censorship had ingrained itself into my brain... now, though, now? Now I wish we had a strong ubermensch like VD to come and tell us what to do and what to say and what he can't do and what we can't say, just like the good ole days.

He would never have allowed GD/Politics to become the utter cesspool of disgust that it is now, so now in my older age I can appreciate where VD was coming from in wanting to impose moral order on the Codex, so, time to finally play AoD.
 
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Black Angel

Arcane
Joined
Jun 23, 2016
Messages
2,910
Location
Wonderland
aweigh If you like Fallout 1 in terms of its sheer focus, scope, and reactivity, you will surely loves AoD. What AoD has is that, and pumped to eleven. I found myself replaying AoD countless times in such a short time span because of how tight it is in terms of focus and scope, and seeing different outcomes because of the reactivity is also really nice. Teleporting might've turn you off and you might not even like it after playing, but it's what helps the game to have tremendous amount of replayability, on top of no trash mobs and random encounters.

Also, despite the lack of companions, the game has multiple instance where you will have allied NPCs helping you, and big fights are quite a chunk of the game.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
dude, believe you me, i am fucking in this shit. This is like my new Vietnam. Fights are EXACTLY the level of challenge I always love/appreciate, and I gotta say, without even having half VD's cock dangling on mah lips, that the encounter design is top-notch! I expect/assume it will be much better in AoD given it's lessened focus on stuff like manhandling rats. Who live in dungeons.

I will say tho: game would've actually been legit PERFECT if it had been first-person view... obviously with Gold Box-style perspective shift to strategy-lite battle map, like in those games (although just to be hipsterish dark heart of uurkuul did the gold box style of Final Fantasy Tactics combat much better)

. I just think dungeons uniquely benefit the most by a very large and quantifiable margin of parameters in having a first-person view/approach. Nothing makes a dungeon feel more like a true labyrinth/maze than that perspective.

Overhead view crawlers/blobbers like Lab. of Touhou do excellent things in terms of their mechanics and how polished their hot takes on the sub-genre's conventions; but I couldn't get into Touhou crawlers simply because overhead perspective of the dungeons kills the excitement, the atmosphere, everything.

/rant

Rats is fucking ace though. Been having this TB hard-core battle fag ITCH for a WHILE now; since I played KNIGHTS OF THE CHALICE! Nothing approaching the sheer joy of TB combat of KotC had come around til this thing.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
- I (am still to this day) stupefied that there is no walking and instead teleporting from script trigger to the next trigger
There's plenty of walking. There's *some* teleporting like returning your character to quest givers after completing quests, which isn't a big deal, but as you know people like to exaggerate.

Happy to eat my words now after playing DR and seeing the depth in the combat system. AoD can absolutely coast by without party members on that TB system.
Glad you like it.

(But I still dislike not having some form of companions in my TB games, or any RPG games for that matter, and I find it humorous VD gave in to consumer demand and made Colony Ship a party-based RPG simply because of the non-stop raging butt-hurt over AoD's one-man-army/diplomat).
We planned it this way long before AoD was released. Our original plan was to develop two different settings with different systems. Fantasy vs sci-fi, single-character vs party-based, focus on melee vs ranged, skill-points vs increase by use, focus on exploration vs working your way up in a faction, feats vs skills' passives, etc.
 

Jrpgfan

Erudite
Joined
Feb 7, 2016
Messages
2,008
Another convert to the church of AoD/DR. A schizophrenic one, but welcome regardless(we do not discriminate).
 

epeli

Arcane
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
719
We planned it this way long before AoD was released. Our original plan was to develop two different settings with different systems. Fantasy vs sci-fi, single-character vs party-based, focus on melee vs ranged, skill-points vs increase by use, focus on exploration vs working your way up in a faction, feats vs skills' passives, etc.

That was the plan all along? That is really interesting to know. You're making yourself one of the most well-rounded RPG designers in the industry by going for such polar opposites right from the start! If I recall correctly, you've already talked a bit about the setting of a tentative game project after The New World. Do you already have ideas what you'd like to do with game mechanics there?
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
We planned it this way long before AoD was released. Our original plan was to develop two different settings with different systems. Fantasy vs sci-fi, single-character vs party-based, focus on melee vs ranged, skill-points vs increase by use, focus on exploration vs working your way up in a faction, feats vs skills' passives, etc.

That was the plan all along? That is really interesting to know. You're making yourself one of the most well-rounded RPG designers in the industry by going for such polar opposites right from the start! If I recall correctly, you've already talked a bit about the setting of a tentative game project after The New World. Do you already have ideas what you'd like to do with game mechanics there?
http://www.irontowerstudio.com/forum/index.php/topic,7208.0.html

I love the 19th century's Gothic novels like The Manuscript Found in Saragossa or Melmoth the Wanderer. Love the idea of proper magic, witches being dangerous, Lucifer as active player, corrupting souls and commanding agents, the Christian faith being a shield against darkness, which is everywhere, the Spanish Inquisition fighting the good fight, cursed places abandoned for a reason, forbidden knowledge, supernatural creatures, that sort of things. Needless to say it would make a great setting, but how do we get there?

I start with the main character, a monk, perhaps, armed with faith and potent prayers fueled by that faith but full of doubts that can be exploited. Basically, a character development fork: a man of God bringing light into darkness or an occultist who abandoned God's light, trading it for forbidden knowledge. Both character types would communicate with powerful demons - dukes of Hell and such, but in different ways. As you can see, now we're defining the setting, both mechanics and "lore":

- to start with, the demons and most "magic-users" can't be killed, they are far too powerful; you can only bargain, protect yourself, play them against each other, maybe banish from your presence to piss them off even more; thus the focus isn't on demon slaying but surviving in a dangerous world most people are unaware of.
- you use combat (or speech/stealth) against the human minions or human enemies standing in your way, like the Inquisition if you turn to the Dark Side.
- such a setting would be perfect for relics, both Holy and Unholy.
- skills like languages (reading ancient books, communicating with demons, etc) and rituals (from exorcism to summoning), derived stats like Faith and Sanity, etc.
- magic would play a large role: prayers, words in God's own language, signs, magic circles & pentagrams, rituals, spells and incantations. You'd acquire them from archives, NPCs, rituals, etc. Too much "hands-on" Occult knowledge would weaken your Faith and thus the power of your prayers and Holy relics, just like too much Faith would weaken your dark rituals and incantations (i.e. it will be hard to play a hybrid).

Now that we have some gameplay basics, it's time to figure out how such a tale would start and end as these two story points would define the rest. The ending would give us both the direction and options on how to get there. The start of the game would set up the tone and introduce the first choice. Etc.
...

Such a game would be perfect for a class-based system, word-based magic (like runes but with words, you learn new words rather than spells and string them together), gain new abilities via rituals rather than level ups, kinda like Bloodlines where you discover that there is a whole different world (of darkness), flintlocks and melee, single-character with summoned allies (animated suits of armor, raised dead, lesser demons, etc).
 

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