Dungeon Rats - first impressions and general feedback

[Whisper]

Isn't throwing a bit OP? I mean, why even bother with critical strike or even STR when, with max crafting and throwing, you can make fast attacks that ignore armour completely 92% of the time? Didn't it use to be that the passive would only half DR and that it needed to activate on a torso shot to ignore it completely?

Theory crafting or you try play throwing build (especially with low Str)?

 

[TigerKnee]

Low Str Throwing Build was my first - the start was utterly horrid because of the lack of ammo and I abandoned it.

The one I beat the game with had 7 Str - it's kinda murderous when you have high Alc Berserk and Neurostim on, but otherwise not that impressive IMO.

 

[Lurker King]

That is a serious problem. How are you going to craft new ammo on the rock bottoM?

 

[Jrpgfan]

Lack of ammo is indeed the biggest problem with throwing, especially early in the game, but IMO it's still really OP. That's why I think Roxanna is the best companion in the game. Her high throwing skill and throwing rate are a game changer when you get her. She can rape grown men in heavy armor like they were naked babies.

 

[Fenix]

Theory crafting or you try play throwing build (especially with low Str)?

It is definitely not theorycrafting, because Roxana or my thrower playthrough looks exactly like that - craft Karda, sharpen it with stone, poison it, quaff Berserk, throw knifes with fast attack 6 in a turn, or 9, watch them all dying...

Btw, I made it till Emperor on Ironman, but he kicked my ass hard, "like US marshals".
I'll wait till situation with bomb becomes clearer - are they bugged, or maybe not.
Elhoim please clarify.
If they are bugged I'll wait because that mean they are completely useless.

 

[kryminator]

Is there everything ok with SP distribution? I am asking because just after scorpin, scorpin fight my char who has 5 INT received 5 SP while Hieron with his 8 INT received only 3 XP. Moreover, others who have 5 INT (Roxy and Marcus) received 2 SP each. I would expect 2 or 3 XP for my char in such case. But maybe I am just too stupid to understand that mechanics. Nevertheless, the screens:

before fight:

and after fight:

So, it was Me +5, Hieron +3, Marcus +2 and Roxy +2

Game version is GOG-4 a.k.a the previous one (dont know the exact version numbers because GOG has some idiotic patch/update/new_version release process and there is always only one version there which in this case is the last one)

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

I think CHARNAME just gets extra XP

 

[zool]

Is there everything ok with SP distribution? I am asking because just after scorpin, scorpin fight my char who has 5 INT received 5 SP while Hieron with his 8 INT received only 3 XP. Moreover, others who have 5 INT (Roxy and Marcus) received 2 SP each. I would expect 2 or 3 XP for my char in such case. But maybe I am just too stupid to understand that mechanics.

Yes, I noticed on occasions some very weird SP distribution too, and then the next fight, the SP distribution seems in line with INT stats, so I'm not sur if it's a bug or not.

 

[Mozg]

I figured that the game "remembers" fractions of an SP you got from intelligence and when you get like +.5 to go with your .6 it awards you with a full point. Then there's probably another issue where if a fight gives an amount of SP that isn't evenly divisible it probably gives the remainder to the main character. Put them both together and sometimes it will look p. anomalous

 

[kryminator]

Elhoim
This is strange. It is said 'Extract Rock Oil' but it is a source of fools gold. Moreover, it is unlimited source

Guys, what do You think about bow? I made a char using bow, but she had to have high CHA (8) so CON an STR are 4 and I feel like she is rather shitty char. I don't know... should I give her more STR instead of PER for example or maybe it is because I am still using bronze arrows or something else is wrong. She does some dmg per turn but it's like half of dmg Roxy can do. What are the best bow and tactic for 12 AP?

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

Elhoim
This is strange. It is said 'Extract Rock Oil' but it is a source of fools gold. Moreover, it is unlimited source

Guys, what do You think about bow? I made a char using bow, but she had to have high CHA (8) so CON an STR are 4 and I feel like she is rather shitty char. I don't know... should I give her more STR instead of PER for example or maybe it is because I am still using bronze arrows or something else is wrong. She does some dmg per turn but it's like half of dmg Roxy can do. What are the best bow and tactic for 12 AP?

My 10 Cha character was a 4 str and con bow and alchemy guy. I mainly used him to get every enemy poisoned while my m80s concentrated on killing single targets. While I had no trouble beating the game with this group, I'm quite certain I would have been better off with crossbows in retrospect.

When there were ranged enemies that I couldn't avoid I ended up just parking my guy out of the way since I barely had any defense skill and could die really easily.

 

[TigerKnee]

Bows are way better with good physical stats - if you're going 4 Str, you take Crossbows.

Well I guess technically everything but Crossbows is better with good physical stats unless you Berserk Potion it up but that's very mid/late game. If you have low Str then your early game is basically helping your party members with Aimed Attacks for debuffs

 

[Tigranes]

Can't Touch This, the sword/dodge solo maestro, did away with the Emprah without too much problem.

The final construct trio is another matter, though. You could have 10 DR and they'd still get enough damage past you, not to mention critical hits, and they hit you very often with 10 Dodge. All the while it's pretty tough to get past their DR.

Also, is it better to have 10 crafting or 10 alchemy for the final push? Feels like you pick up enough loot (sky metal swords, etc) that you don't really need the blue steel / sky metal crafting.

 

[TigerKnee]

Don't know if they nerfed it this patch but 10 Alchemy feels much stronger with Berserk Potions that only drops your THC by 5% at that level and 5/6 AP Neurostims and 11 HP poisons.

 

[SniperHF]

Completed my first run through, party of 4 with My character (2H Spear+Crafting) - Roxana(dagger) - Marcus - Ardomir. Roxana and Ardomir fell during the fight with the Emperor and I decided to finish without them instead of reloading for a better win.

I found it easier than AoD overall, perhaps due to the 4 characters. Gonna try 3 next. One thing I did notice was I didn't once receive stat damage on any of my characters so I had a bunch of those salves laying around afterward.

I remember reading earlier in the threads about the game that people seemed to think enemies hit a lot more frequently than in AoD. I also found that to be the case though my assumption was because you were fighting against foes that were closer to on par with your character. It did lead me to prioritizing offense over defense which is backwards from how I played AoD most of the time. Especially early on if you have slower AP characters you don't get the benefit of higher DR armor to match, which is one of the bigger flaws of DR IMO. It might make sense plot wise but it really doesn't incentivize creating 8 or 9 AP characters at all.

The main tough fights were:
The one where Roxana was on the tower.
The first set of 2 Scorpions.
The Emperor - mostly because Ardomir got murdered by the ranged guys almost immediately.

Stupidly easy:
Constructs - They had a hard time piercing my armor.
Stationary Plants - maybe give them more HP?. Though going for headshots/using ranged weapons is the secret sauce for those things so adding more HP might be a problem for certain parties or players who don't figure that out.


Once I had access to steel and the alchemy follower the game while not outright easy, became a lot less challenging. Usually fights didn't require any or more than 1 reload after that.

Oh and Neurostimulant wrecks.

 

[Tigranes]

Easy/hard fights vary greatly depending on build and party. Plants can be super deadly if you don't have ranged, for example, esp. due to their high damage melee swing.

 

[Tigranes]

Alright, Can't Touch This has made it out.

For some reason, bombs started being useful again as damage dealers by late game, maybe because high alchemy => high damage bombs? Had a dozen bombs saved up and could use them to take out at least six or seven guys in the finale, and took out the Centurion with the mystery-bomb. Hell, forgot I had half a dozen level 9 neurostims saved up!

So, solo done, 3-man done. Maybe 2-man with axe or bow next.

 

[Whisper]

Looks like Int was giving +10% more SP per point than intended 5%.

 

[Whisper]

Anything else feels that CS stat is useless unless you have crafter AND use certain weapons.

100 CS (10 lvls of CS) do not give reliable crits, you see like 10-20% chance on usual mobs you fight.
You have to get 125 CS to see actual benefit, this means you need craft for +25 CS (1st) and 2nd use weapons that benefit from such craft (you cant put CS on bows or crossbows for example).

And in more effect of crits, lets say its not that spectacular. Omg, -1 perception to enemy, or 4 bleed tick. Keep in mind fast attacks give -15% chance to crit so you need high accuraccy (read add to Perception which asks for question if you raise Per and Dex and Str, how many points you put in Con, Cha and Int? And you need Int - unless you go full group and "level" Hieron - to raise CS skill).


I played several times, mostly solo and never did i felt "If only i had higher CS skill this fight would go easier". Though for dagger user its probably a must the way special works.

 

[HoboForEternity]

Stationary Plants - maybe give them more HP?. Though going for headshots/using ranged weapons is the secret sauce for those things so adding more HP might be a problem for certain

i love those plants becasue they give me alot of cassava.

anyway in indonesia we fry / steam cassava and eat them as snack. didn't know it can be a blood coagulant till i play AoD

 

[zool]

Ok, so finished my first playthough on Tough Bastard (because I usually suck at combat). Overall I liked it a lot, as a simple dungeon crawler with a well-rounded combat system - and that's coming from someone who doesn't like dungeon crawlers in general. However, there are a few things missing from that game which I think would have made it into a truly great dungeon crawler instead of it simply being "good":

- Make companions more unique : after having read the game was party-based, I had hoped that companions would be more than stats and a 15-line background. Alas, they were not.
It would have been great if companions had unique special traits that added to the whole party, like in Dead State. For example, having Ismail in the party would result in a 10% bonus to bomb damage, or things like that.
Simple party banter between companions would go a long way to making the game and your party feel more alive : it would also be great if some companions were not willing to work with others, or on the contrary if using some NPCs in pair would result in special bonuses.
Companions having special dialogues with some NPCs would be great too. For example, I was disappointed that Yngvar had no special dialogue with Democritus. Likewise, unless I missed something, I recruited the Guardian but he had no special dialogue with the Emperor.
Companions should also react to the gameworld : for example, if you recruit Yngvar, he could give you some tips on Democritus' weaknesses. It could also be simple flavor text such as companions warning you about certain dangers when you enter a specific area or things like Quintus making a comment about facing Aurelian legionaries again if you manage to bring him all the way to the surface.
All in all, things like this wouldn't require a huge amount of work but would add much-appreciated flavor to the game. It would also add hugely to the game's replayability, as players would not only want to run through the game again to try out a new build but also to try out a new party with unique companions and interactions.

- Lack of a real "prison feel" : now, I understand that the whole idea behind the Second Chance is that it is a prison mine. However, it would have been great if the underground levels had been more of a mix between an underground prison and a mine, rather than simply looking like a mine. For now, you only really start to feel the whole prison thing when you get to the old cell block, which is a bit late in the game IMO. The last level was great though and did manage to capture very well that relief to finally see the sky. Playing with the vertical element was very cool too, and made me appreciate DOF for once.

- Lack of unique items and issue with crafting : the lack of unique items is a problem that plagued AoD as well but it's even more acute in DR: the whole weapon and item progression thing feels very linear and there is a sore lack of unique items to spice things up. If I'm not mistaken, apart from Scaurus' spear and shield (and maybe the enforcer's sword), there are no unique weapons or amors in the game. Unique items are usually what makes looting bodies exciting, like in BG2. But in DR, new weapons are simply the same old weapons forged with a better ore and/or crafting, and that's not very exciting.
The problem gets even more acute when you bring along a high-craftmanship PC (or get Hieron to 8 or more in crafting) as you will consistently have crafted better weapons than the ones you find on your opponents' bodies, which litteraly kills the "finding new and more powerful items" part of the game (the only thing you're looking for at that point is new schematics).

- Fugly 3D engine is fugly : in spite of Oscar's best efforts with it, Torque remains an ugly 3D engine, as I'm sure you're aware. I hear you're moving to Unreal 4 engine for your next game, which can only be an improvement. However, just think about how great DR or AoD could have been if, in addition to their great combat system and, for AoD, world interactivty and C&C, they also took place in crisp-looking beautiful isometric environments. Think AOD's distinctive post-apocalyptic Roman feel with IE graphics : it would be glorious. Pair up with Chris Bischoff or something! Truly great games shine in all departments - game design, art direction, gameplay, lore, graphics, etc - and AOD/DR only really lack great isometric graphics. Now that you guys are starting to get established and with AoD and DR pretty successful in terms of sales if I understand well, why not be ambitious and focus on improving that part of the game? /graphixwhore

 

[Darth Roxor]

and that's coming from someone who doesn't like dungeon crawlers in general.

well, to be frank, this isn't really a dunjin crawler

but i will clarify this in the Future (tm)

 

[Fenix]

Companions having special dialogues with some NPCs would be great too. For example, I was disappointed that Yngvar had no special dialogue with Democritus. Likewise, unless I missed something, I recruited the Guardian but he had no special dialogue with the Emperor.

Agree.

- Fugly 3D engine is fugly : in spite of Oscar's best efforts with it, Torque remains an ugly 3D engine, as I'm sure you're aware. I hear you're moving to Unreal 4 engine for your next game, which can only be an improvement. However, just think about how great DR or AoD could have been if, in addition to their great combat system and, for AoD, world interactivty and C&C, they also took place in crisp-looking beautiful isometric environments. Think AOD's distinctive post-apocalyptic Roman feel with IE graphics : it would be glorious. Pair up with Chris Bischoff or something! Truly great games shine in all departments - game design, art direction, gameplay, lore, graphics, etc - and AOD/DR only really lack great isometric graphics. Now that you guys are starting to get established and with AoD and DR pretty successful in terms of sales if I understand well, why not be ambitious and focus on improving that part of the game? /graphixwhore

Disagree.

 

[Lurker King]

Make companions more unique : after having read the game was party-based, I had hoped that companions would be more than stats and a 15-line background. Alas, they were not.
It would have been great if companions had unique special traits that added to the whole party, like in Dead State. For example, having Ismail in the party would result in a 10% bonus to bomb damage, or things like that.
Simple party banter between companions would go a long way to making the game and your party feel more alive : it would also be great if some companions were not willing to work with others, or on the contrary if using some NPCs in pair would result in special bonuses.
Companions having special dialogues with some NPCs would be great too. For example, I was disappointed that Yngvar had no special dialogue with Democritus. Likewise, unless I missed something, I recruited the Guardian but he had no special dialogue with the Emperor.
Companions should also react to the gameworld : for example, if you recruit Yngvar, he could give you some tips on Democritus' weaknesses. It could also be simple flavor text such as companions warning you about certain dangers when you enter a specific area or things like Quintus making a comment about facing Aurelian legionaries again if you manage to bring him all the way to the surface.
All in all, things like this wouldn't require a huge amount of work but would add much-appreciated flavor to the game. It would also add hugely to the game's replayability, as players would not only want to run through the game again to try out a new build but also to try out a new party with unique companions and interactions.

All true.

Lack of unique items and issue with crafting : the lack of unique items is a problem that plagued AoD as well but it's even more acute in DR: the whole weapon and item progression thing feels very linear and there is a sore lack of unique items to spice things up. If I'm not mistaken, apart from Scaurus' spear and shield (and maybe the enforcer's sword), there are no unique weapons or amors in the game. Unique items are usually what makes looting bodies exciting, like in BG2. But in DR, new weapons are simply the same old weapons forged with a better ore and/or crafting, and that's not very exciting.
The problem gets even more acute when you bring along a high-craftmanship PC (or get Hieron to 8 or more in crafting) as you will consistently have crafted better weapons than the ones you find on your opponents' bodies, which litteraly kills the "finding new and more powerful items" part of the game (the only thing you're looking for at that point is new schematics).

I agree 100%. One of the things I always admired in BG was the personal history of each magical weapon. Vault Dweller should put a little more effort in this detail in his colony ship game too. It is immersive.

 

[Lurker King]

I found it easier than AoD overall