Dota 2 Discussion (~Boston Majors & Road to TI7~)

[Pope Amole II]

He refers to the yesterday's EG vs DK summit finals, where the EG have sealed the deal with a two PA picks in a row. And, I haven't seen it myself, but I figure that they played her realy agressively in the midgame, hence his comment. Wouldn't say she has no survival & damage, though - with the new 50% evasion she's extremely tanky against anything physical based (make her a fast vanguard and she can dive towers yolo-style), and with the 130 attack bonus on her blink she begins to rather hurt in melee. I've randomed her a couple of times in the pub and I wasn't just afk farming until 35 min (because I can't farm, lol) - we were teamfighting and she was doing pretty well.

 

[Malakal]

He refers to the yesterday's EG vs DK summit finals, where the EG have sealed the deal with a two PA picks in a row. And, I haven't seen it myself, but I figure that they played her realy agressively in the midgame, hence his comment. Wouldn't say she has no survival & damage, though - with the new 50% evasion she's extremely tanky against anything physical based (make her a fast vanguard and she can dive towers yolo-style), and with the 130 attack bonus on her blink she begins to rather hurt in melee. I've randomed her a couple of times in the pub and I wasn't just afk farming until 35 min (because I can't farm, lol) - we were teamfighting and she was doing pretty well.

I know he was referring to yesterdays big game and, while I only watched game one which was lost miserably by EG, I deducted EG won with PA picks. But your points dont stand.

First of all mid game for pros =/= mid game for pubs. By 15min any position one hero will have at least 100 last hits which translates in at least two medium items for PA (phase, drums, possibly claymore) and level 11. Thats enough to deal some damage with level 2 ult (crits clocking 400-500dmg). With good team composition expected in pro games that may work.

But in pubs you will have an underfarmed hero with pathetic hp. While evasion helps a lot it also does nothing against magic and magic reigns supreme during the mid game.

I am not saying that PA is a bad hero now, its just that I dont agree shes a good mid game hero.

 

[Malakal]

Also ironically enough faceless void is an excellent mid game hero since his ult has massive teamfight potential no matter how much farm he has.

 

[Pope Amole II]

But in pubs you will have an underfarmed hero

Yeah, dude, but it's not like you're gonna play against the pros in the pub - enemies will also have underfarmed heroes (often with pathetic hps). Sure, there are some exceptions (like Luna - it's really hard to fail farming on Luna, though not impossible), but the majority will be as poort as the PA. So it kinda balances out. Not to mention that she's not that bad at laning now - fast evasion makes harassing her much harder, after all.

Though I've watched the highlights and it wasn't really the PA who sealed those matches - in 4th game (1st PA game), I think DK somewhat mispicked(or they was outpicked) They have a carry silencer (which is more of a defensive hero), but the rest of their team is mostly gank (with a little bit of teamfight from Kunka). But the opponents have great ults (with much lower cooldowns than the global silence) and are all damn tanky. Tough times.

And in game 5 I think DK just misplayed - I mean, you have enchantress & sand king, two of the game's best early gankers, and also io who deals a freaking lot of magical damage early on. And the enemy team doesn't have, like, an ultimate counter-gank composition, How can it happed that at the 10 minutes mark the score was what, 1:2? They should've totally ganked them to the smithereens, but no.

 

[Malakal]

I have observed that pro teams often fall into the farming trap not using the full potential of their picks. Like Alliance time after time picking slark and then going midas on him. Whats the point.

 

[Renegen]

Whenever I see PA in competitive dota I get all giddy, nothing better than seeing the champion I like the most and play once a month whenever I dabble in Dota2. All of her buffs make me scared she'll be spammed a lot and then nerfed into the ground though, I already heard one of the commentators complain that her dagger range is too big, yikes the vultures are circling. It's interesting to note that she wasn't really fed or did anything special that you would expect of the pros compared to pubs, she was never in the safe lane so her farm was lacklustre, around 60 cs at 15 minutes and she didn't get mid-game items like drums, in fact the 2nd game she rushed a Battlefury. The only help she got was some lifesteal and stacking from her team.

What is interesting however is she went threads, which is quite common, but also had a flask because she went mid. The extra tankiness from those 2 items helped her not die and get levels, from my experience the worst thing that can happen to late game champs is they get shutdown early and mid helped her there. A lot of the time the "safe" lane carries end up being targeted for group gangbangs so there's nothing that safe about them, also she always had a 2nd threat on her team - Doom and Weaver who farmed even harder than her to make the enemy think twice about who to camp. She did take part in teamfights, but nothing that Doom wasn't doing so you can't say she was that active, only Weaver was splitpushing hard.

 

[Ninjerk]

I'm mainly happy that she punishes Morphling for trying to Shotgun.

Anyway, the safe lane (for either side) is known as such because it's the only lane where you can reliably change the creep equilibrium by pulling jungle camps. At a certain level of competition/general player game knowledge, the ganks are going to happen to some lane no matter what. Sometimes it's because of a specific hero (e.g. late-game nightmare hero), sometimes it's a respect gank on a particularly good player (people try to shit on RTZ in his games because he can take over games), a gank of convenience, a tower-push gank, etc.

By the by, I'm not nearly as terrible or ragey as the last time you played with me AngryEddy's bitch ass can attest

 

[Renegen]

Oh I don't even remember the rage haha. My steam is usually off so I never know who's online, but there seems to be a lot of codexers on the NA dota2 servers, I bet if we had 5 of us in the same game it would be really lulzy. Maybe even LP worthy if we're not too lazy. I played with Ninjerk and Kingcomrade so far and both of their crew seemed pretty fun, I think one of your friends Ninjerk even carried me, I'd always be up for that too.

What's a good time to get online for everybody?

 

[Ninjerk]

Some CDS people play apparently but I think the only one I'm friends with is Corporate_Jew_Master ? IDK, I pop on from time to time mostly during evening EST hours.

 

[Great Deceiver]

champion

Icefrog balancing isn't Riot balancing. A hero doesn't get nerfed because someone whines about them. And usually when something is nerfed, it's a pretty smart nerf, not a dumb number nerf; also, most Dota balance patches have way more buffs than nerfs, so heroes feel stronger overall, not weaker.

 

[Renegen]

champion

Icefrog balancing isn't Riot balancing. A hero doesn't get nerfed because someone whines about them. And usually when something is nerfed, it's a pretty smart nerf, not a dumb number nerf; also, most Dota balance patches have way more buffs than nerfs, so heroes feel stronger overall, not weaker.

It's funny, I was watching the EG vs DK finals yesterday and the chat went full of people trying to spam how dumb League players were. They really cared about their positions, so organized a sad raiding party to one of the most popular LoL streamers that was on. The link was provided, they all jumped on the stream, spammed their shit, and within 15 messages the chat went into sub mode. They then came back to the dota chat and said "WE DID IT, WE SHOWED THEM". Ahem, you really did.

This hate is really weird, it's completely one directional I assure you. I can appreciate both games, and plenty of codexers to have fun with in both games. Anyway, think you can carry a LoLer, or are you too embarassed he should carry you?

I dunno about the nerfs, I recall Wisp, PL and Bat Rider getting the shaft hard.

 

[Great Deceiver]

Whoa, you're a little too defensive there buddy, I was just cracking a joke. Also, stream watchers in general are the scum of the earth, most of them don't play the game, they just watch a bunch of shit and think they know something, and they really don't.

Dota heroes do get nerfed, but it's usually a big picture type thing and as I said, usually the hero is still strong after the nerf in exactly the same ways he was before the nerf. Take Batrider, for instance - his vision was nerfed during Firefly a few patches ago, and that was huge, but he's still the same hero. His lasso range got massively nerfed but he's still the same hero. Only during last patch did IF tweak some numbers to lower his jungling potential, but he's still the same hero. Riot balancing would be like reduce lasso duration by half or some other dumb shit that would make the hero feel like a limp noodle. I hope you see the distinction.

 

[Ninjerk]

Didn't IF add like 100 mana cost to Lasso? Anyway, Batrider's function is so useful and unique that it would be difficult to reduce his pick/ban rate without making him unreasonably weak (like 400 starting hp lol). My understanding with PL is that the big nerfs to him were nerfs to Tranquils. I didn't start playing until after the Wisp tether nerf, but that shit sounds like it needed to be nerfed.

 

[Great Deceiver]

75 mana if I'm not mistaken; and yeah, the Tranquils nerf were huge for PL as well as for other safelane carries like Antimage - it was literally always good to build those boots on any carry type hero, practically infinite sustain in lane and you could just disassemble for a Vlads later.

Wisp tether nerf was absolutely necessary, but as I said, it was a smart nerf - the hero still has the same characteristics as before, it still feels powerful in the same ways as before. When a team picks wisp isn't about wisp, it's about the tethered hero and the map possibilities that relocate opens. That's still exactly the same.

 

[Renegen]

Whoa, you're a little too defensive there buddy, I was just cracking a joke. Also, stream watchers in general are the scum of the earth, most of them don't play the game, they just watch a bunch of shit and think they know something, and they really don't.

Dota heroes do get nerfed, but it's usually a big picture type thing and as I said, usually the hero is still strong after the nerf in exactly the same ways he was before the nerf. Take Batrider, for instance - his vision was nerfed during Firefly a few patches ago, and that was huge, but he's still the same hero. His lasso range got massively nerfed but he's still the same hero. Only during last patch did IF tweak some numbers to lower his jungling potential, but he's still the same hero. Riot balancing would be like reduce lasso duration by half or some other dumb shit that would make the hero feel like a limp noodle. I hope you see the distinction.

I don't know why you have to do this, you're entering internet debate territory with the whole "range nerf is a-ok but duration nerf is not". Sorry about using the term champion, geez. The thread had a fun active mood to it..

Let me explain you the purpose of the Bat Rider nerf as a layman despite you saying "hes the same hero" is actually to make him more of a niche pick as opposed to a pick all the time hero, he's not functionally the same. The purpose of most nerfs in most games is to make the hero more situational, a range nerf and vision nerf reduces the instances where Bat Rider can gank and so he becomes a more niche pick.

 

[Great Deceiver]

It's not about a nerf being ok or not, it's about keeping the same functionality for the hero as before - do you agree that Batrider would be a fundamentally different hero if Lasso didn't last as long? He's still the same hero, fundamentally, after the range nerf; only the execution is a little more difficult. So, the reward is the same, but the risk of fucking up is greater - that's fine, I see Batrider as a high-risk, high reward hero.

As far as blanket picks, I don't think that's been the case at any point during the years I've been playing Dota. Picking and banning and building a team is probably the most difficult aspect of the game, and it's been like that as far back as I can see. Heroes are specialized and require some though behind picking them, and building a team around them, rather than just picking whatever is considered op. Look at Chinese teams, for instance - they didn't value Ember highly even during the OMG EMBER OP general craze (with the exception of DK probably), but they learned to build teams/pick around it, to decent success.

 

[Renegen]

A lower range is functionally very close to a shorter duration, it means you have to walk to the target - and then walk away from his teammates more than you did before, your window of success is shorter. A shorter duration is a shorter window of success. This relationship is part of the math behind MOBAs, movespeed can be measured as range, and movespeed can also be measured as duration (stronger slow is a longer duration stun).

Also just yesterday I heard some of the commentators (Dota2 pros btw) say how Doom right now is so OP that you just have to pick him or ban him.

I agree that the identity of the hero is usually preserved, and that's a goal that every game strives towards. It reminds me of the boardroom speech in Network, what do you think Valve and Riot talk about at their board meeting, Karl Marx? No everyone uses the same game design principles.

 

[Great Deceiver]

A lower range is functionally very close to a shorter duration, it means you have to walk to the target - and then walk away from his teammates more than you did before, your window of success is shorter. A shorter duration is a shorter window of success. This relationship is part of the math behind MOBAs, movespeed speed can be measured as range, and movespeed can also be measured as duration (stronger slow is a longer duration stun).

Also just yesterday I heard some of the commentators (Dota2 pros btw) say how Doom right now is so OP that you just have to pick him or ban him.

That's all fine and dandy, but why the fuck are you ignoring blink dagger? A lower range is by no means functionally close to a shorter duration, it just means you have to be more precise with your blink. What the fuck kind of Batrider even tries to do something without a blink? Also past the 15-20 minute mark you don't walk away with your lasso'd target, you forcestaff away.

Re: commentators, well, Dota like any other game of this type is a game of fads - right now, Doom is a fad. He was considered garbage tier a couple of years ago. It is possible IF will nerf him in the next balance patch (he was already nerfed, Devour manacost is significantly higher and that's a pretty big deal, also Doom doesn't ignore Pipe anymore - an item which was buffed recently and people need to realize it's almost as essential as Mek now), but it's difficult to nerf Doom - he's valued so highly right now because of the way he's perceived to take someone out of the fight completely, eliminate them, no matter how fed they are, by casting one spell; that's only partly true, if the teamfight drags on long enough, it is possible the Doomed target can contribute if his team wasn't completely slaughtered during Doom's duration.

 

[Ninjerk]

A lower range is functionally very close to a shorter duration, it means you have to walk to the target - and then walk away from his teammates more than you did before, your window of success is shorter. A shorter duration is a shorter window of success. This relationship is part of the math behind MOBAs, movespeed can be measured as range, and movespeed can also be measured as duration (stronger slow is a longer duration stun).

Also just yesterday I heard some of the commentators (Dota2 pros btw) say how Doom right now is so OP that you just have to pick him or ban him.

I agree that the identity of the hero is usually preserved, and that's a goal that every game strives towards. It reminds me of the boardroom speech in Network, what do you think Valve and Riot talk about at their board meeting, Karl Marx? No everyone uses the same game design principles.

Yeah, Batrider doesn't walk. Walking is for peasants. What the range reduction does is make teammates of the lasso target have a better chance at stunning Batrider (if he doesn't have BKB). The core of Batrider is that he can disable a hero through immunity, drag him through impassable terrain, and punish anyone who tries to move through that zone. His functionality isn't changed by the lasso range nerf and the relationship with movement speed doesn't have anything to do with anything. I believe someone referenced a Firefly nerf as well? I don't remember specifically what it was, but if I remember correctly it was changed (or its interaction with Sticky Napalm?) so he couldn't get a ridiculous timing on his blink dagger.

 

[AngryEddy]

AngryEddy's bitch ass can attest

Oh he's just wonderful. He makes dark days bright and joyous.

 

[Great Deceiver]

The Firefly nerf was actually a Dota 2 specific bug, his vision wasn't getting reduced during it, so he had 1800/1200 (day/night) unobstructed flying vision whenever it was active, which was completely OP. They fixed it sometime last year (lowering it to the correct Dota 1 values of 800/700), can't remember when.

 

[curry]

What's a good time to get online for everybody?

What's your MMR? And the other Codex players' in the usual stack?

 

[Renegen]

What's a good time to get online for everybody?

What's your MMR? And the other Codex players' in the usual stack?

There is no stack, but maybe we should build one.

 

[curry]

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Renegen]

I haven't played ranked so I have no mmr. I mean in every stack some are better than others, just wanting to know if you want to organize one with people in this thread.