Doom vs Brutal Doom - DISCUSS!

[toroid]

Is that any different to mouse support ?

Mouse support doesn't let me kill enemies in other rooms through freakin' walls. Of course it's different, come on. I think wall penetration might be a tolerable feature of Brutal Doom if it was drastically reworked to be far less overpowered. In general though I don't care for it because I don't think it fits into what I like about Doom gameplay (that's a totally different discussion) and it's simply an unwanted feature IMO; it doesn't serve a real purpose. I don't know what "true Doom" means either, other than "100% vanilla" I guess.

I'll ask you again, reworded: Does killing enemies through walls belong in Doom in your opinion? How about in Brutal Doom? Yes, no or indifferent?

 

[JarlFrank]

Killing enemies through walls is bullshit and I prefer brutal doom over vanilla.

 

[Perkel]

Is that any different to mouse support ?

Does killing enemies through walls belong in Doom in your opinion? How about in Brutal Doom? Yes, no or indifferent?

Why does it even matter ? What is "belong in Doom" ?
Yeah i don't see it as + if this will be some radicolous shit like in video IF i would somewhat care about BD.

BD is just gory fun. I don't see how anything can make it "worse" if whole point of game sits on subject more gore = more fun.

 

[toroid]

Why does it even matter ? What is "belong in Doom" ?
Yeah i don't see it as + if this will be some radicolous shit like in video IF i would somewhat care about BD.

BD is just gory fun. I don't see how anything can make it "worse" if whole point of game sits on subject more gore = more fun.

For someone who is so indifferent/complacent towards Doom's gameplay formula/structure, you sure do seem to react strongly to people who do have preferences about what they want included in the game.
I dunno, maybe we're not communicating well.

 

[Perkel]

More like i am pointing people their idiocy in behavior.

You already have best doom formula and it is called "doom".

Pointing that BD or that recent modification is not "doom" is pure insanity.

You are trying criticize that goat isn't cow.

 

[Unkillable Cat]

Bullet penetration is an idea, but it shouldn't be allowed through pretty much every surface. Certain walls and certain doors, yes. But I'm seeing bullet penetration through concrete and metal doors in that video.

Also, I would LOVE to see the Spider Mastermind turn this around and gib the player through a door or two.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Shooting through walls was somewhat cool in PS2 era FPSes, like Red Faction 1/2, with weapons designed for that (railguns).
FFS filthy modern shootahs have this but with thin materials (wood, some thin metal plates on the fence) with weapons with high penetration potential (AWP from Cunter Stroke, FMJ bullets).
BD? Nope. No point in it. Seriously.

Also, I would LOVE to see the Spider Mastermind turn this around and gib the player through a door or two.

Yesplz.

 

[CyberP]

Reduce the wall thickness that can be shot to 8 pixels and the feature wouldn't be too bad, as in it will only be possible to do on very thin surfaces so therefore not possible to exploit to the degree in the video and it would be something that rarely happens as walls that thin are especially rare in Doom. That or no wall penetration are the only options.
If it is implemented, cool. If no bullet penetration, fine. The game doesn't need it, although it will be an appreciated minor feature if implemented properly.
Given the limitations of Zdoom it should be probably be scrapped though, as tracing for wall material would be ideal.

 

[toroid]

Pointing that BD or that recent modification is not "doom" is pure insanity.

You are trying criticize that goat isn't cow.

Oh I see now. You're taking it literally when people say that something is or is not Doom. When we say that, we're evaluating whether it feels appropriate within our own individual perception of the game, as a part of our personal Doom experience. It's a matter of preference in gameplay and design (and game modification and customization).

If I told you that I played Doom slowly and deliberately so that I could better appreciate the horrific atmosphere would you say that I played it wrong?
If I used mods (PSX music, etc) that emphasized these aspects of the game, and if I felt that "this is Doom to me", would you say I was wrong?
(not gonna get into why I prefer it this way, that's for a different thread)

BD is just gory fun. I don't see how anything can make it "worse" if whole point of game sits on subject more gore = more fun.

BD is more than just gore. The added gore is simply a novelty, and the 'fatalities' can be completely ignored imo. The real meat of BD lies in the altered ai and gameplay mechanics, and the overhauled weapons. I consider it a welcome change after hundreds of hours of vanilla.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Why is this thread going on?

More like i am pointing people their idiocy in behavior.

You already have best doom formula and it is called "doom".

Pointing that BD or that recent modification is not "doom" is pure insanity.

You are trying criticize that goat isn't cow.

The original argument was that BD > Doom but in the sense that BD is Doom except moar Doomy. It was that argument some of us had trouble with. I personally have no problem with BD as its own thing, i just hate when people say stupid shit that isn't true.

 

[JarlFrank]

BD is just gory fun. I don't see how anything can make it "worse" if whole point of game sits on subject more gore = more fun.

It's also about aggressive AI and challenge, it's much harder than vanilla Doom.

 

[CyberP]

Grenades? Most FPS' grenades swing between terribad to barely useful, with some exceptions such as those from Shadow of Soviet Russia Chernobyl. What's more, in the same video the player hits himself with said grenades multiple times, heh.

You're clearly just shit, shit just like whoever was throwing them in that video. It is somewhat rare when grenades haven't been useful in a shooter. Especially if you can cook them and/or have influence over throw strength, and most importantly when they have a dedicated key input to throw without having to switch to them. It has a dedicated key in BD thankfully and they are useful. No cooking though.

 

[Alfons]

The formula is good shooting mechanic synergizing with great level design leading to non-stop action awesomeness.

The difficult part isn't the formula though, but its execution. Apparently anyway, since lots of devs don't seem to get the formula at all, which is what i find baffling, as i said.

It's here so not to drift that thread.

If this is the formula then what is your contention with BD? It has the same level design and the shooting is great. You said that the perception that BD is more Doomy is wrong because Doom isn't about the gore and ultraviolence but besides that, going by your definition it has the same qualities doom has.

 

[shihonage]

Doom level design counts on monster placement, which is dependent on certain monster movement speeds, behaviors, and extermination rates.

Once you fucked with all that, the experience changes. Simply put, Doom level designers were working with an entirely different set of gameplay mechanics, and could've never foreseen the atrocities of BD.

BD shooting being "great" is highly subjective. It felt like ass to me.

 

[CyberP]

Doom level design counts on monster placement, which is dependent on certain monster movement speeds, behaviors, and extermination rates.

Once you fucked with all that, the experience changes.

Negligible. It is the same encounters just harder. The AI retain their core behavior, they are just more offensive (speed, damage, blast radius), use better pathfinding algorithms and have a new attack or two each. there is still not a WAD I've yet to be unable to finish because of said changes. One thing is certain: all encounters were more challenging than they were vanilla. Especially so when you play the crazy hard WADS that constantly force you into run and gunning madness due to the monster placement (dropping you in a room surrounded by Barons, for example).

I really pity you fools who have in their head that BD is anything but awesome as a whole. Can't blame you though, seeing the absolutely retarded fatalities would make anyone skeptical.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I said what my contention with BD is. That is, i have no problem with the mod in and of itself (i prefer the simplicity and balance of the original, but BD can be fun in its own right), but only with the notion that BD > Doom because it is more "Doomy", which to me betrays a lack of understanding of what Doom actually is. BD is its own thing, it isn't Doom except better because it has moar RIP AND TEAR HUGE GUTS. Sometimes less is more, as is definitely the case with Doom.

This relates to Doom 4 (since this thread was split from there) in the sense Bethesda is trying to show that they want to go back to the game's "roots" by bumping up on the rip and tear, without showing anything in so far as gun play or level design goes. Apparently some people think Doom = trololo gore and violence and a lot of people don't seem to understand just what a masterstroke in game design that thing actually was. One of those rare cases where every element seems to fit together to perfection.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Hell, why bother repeating myself? What i said at the beginning still stands:

What is Doom all about, LS?

Derp trololo uber 80's violence of course.

Brutal Doom is no different in principle from Serious Sam, Painkiller and other failed attempts to recreate the Doom formula. It takes one single aspect of said formula and blows it out of proportions or makes it the sole and only focus. It is as if they think Doom was just an assorted collection of gimmicks that people just happen to enjoy. Large waves of enemies, violence, gore and so forth.

Brutal Doom is of course better than Serious Sam and the others purely because it uses Doom as a basis, but all it is is a fun detour from the coherence and simplicity of the original for the sake of getting laughs out of the excess. I very much like the mod for what it is but i hate when people simply assume it is a more "truer" form of the original formula. Because it isn't.

Which brings us to Doom 4, and enemies hands (trololo violance) in place of card keys.

 

[CyberP]

One of those rare cases where every element seems to fit together to perfection.

Whoa, too much credit? Yes Doom had good level design (examples of it including its many puzzles, secrets, resource placement, monster placement etc), cool (but stiff) guns, excellent (but not perfect) audio design and visuals...AI behavior, player movement, pickups and weaponry balanced against each other very nicely...for the time it basically was perfection. There's more I would have done (and I look to Brutal Doom here, especially its AI and weapons). Don't get me wrong it still was a very complimentary formula indeed, but what I wanted to say is there are plenty of games that have great design synergy and Doom was also dead simple design synergy, at least in comparison to an RPG or Looking Glass game for example.

It takes one single aspect of said formula and blows it out of proportions or makes it the sole and only focus.

Which is factually incorrect and a retarded statement. BD takes everything about Doom it realistically/sensibly has access to and expands and refines. AI, weaponry, audio design, special effects, and miscellaneous bits and bobs. It doesn't need to touch the level design itself or make HD textures for geometry as there's plenty other mods for that. It also does music if you throw in the Doom Metal, which is infinitely better than God damn Midi.

The Sergeant's only crime is those fucking fatalities and options to cuss at monsters, but he had the sense to make the retardation optional of course so no real harm done.

 

[Cadmus]

I don't understand this fetishization of Doom. I liked it because it was gory and pretty but I always wished for better graphics, better controls and better everything. These old shooters don't do it for me. Sure it was important at the time but I don't like how it aged and I think it's become the equivalent of the fucking Zelda or Mario in the way how hipsters "love it it'z oldskool man remember that one time your dude got low health and his face gets all frowny and bloodied?"

You're applying your RPG-drought-inflated anger on every other genre and use the same criteria and it's stupid. The best thing about Doom that I remember liking was the level design of the first few areas, then it gets retarded. I like the art direction but it gets retarded later, too. It looks like shit now, I don't like shitty sprites in my 3D FPS, I don't even really like the super fast movement, I hate the BFG and all that shit.

I don't think doom 1 holds very well gameplay wise (except maybe the first episode) compared to the sequel and most popular level packs.

people don't fetishize doom 1 specifically but doom in general including the various level packs by amateurs (many of the original ended up designing levels as a professional). The gameplay formula is more interesting and fun. It's the way you have to manage crowd of enemies in levels structured to make it as interesting as possible.

There is a lot more to be said but obviously fighting a large crowd of enemies while moving at super speed and using an overpowered arsenal and having to prioritize targets is more interesting that pop a mole shooting. Maybe you are being obtuse?

serious sam is fucking great... get lost. Serious sam just takes the most frantic moments in doom 2 and makes a whole game based on that an in my opinion it not only works, but works great. I'm not such a fan of first encounter, I'm talking about second encounter and bfe.

regarding brutal doom, it's pretty cool and fun, the haters are lame and are also over reacting. It's nerdrage caused by something stupid. It's just a slight variation on the doom formula

Serious Sam is shit, it feels like somebody took a bunch of shitty enemies and put them in a box and made them explode like watermelons because they remembered Doom had lots of gore.
I'm not being obtuse and I didn't say a word about popping moles being better than Doom. I'll admit that it's a long time since I played it though, the last time was a few years ago when I finished it with a friend in co-op in one sitting and it bored me to death, but he drew me a diploma for finishing it in MSPaint, lol.

There's stuff about it that I like and there's stuff I dislike. The demons are boring, the levels are too nonsensical and abstract etc.etc. Maybe it's not for me because I like FPSs more rooted in realism (hm that sounds silly, I played UT and Q3 to death so maybe that's not it or they were an exception) Maybe I should replay it and see if it holds up.

 

[baturinsky]

Have you playes Serious Sam 3?

 

[Cadmus]

Have you playes Serious Sam 3?

I think I played 1 for a little while and 3 for a longer while and found it horribly boring. The only fun part were the insane one-liners.

 

[Durandal]

Serious Sam is shit, it feels like somebody took a bunch of shitty enemies and put them in a box and made them explode like watermelons because they remembered Doom had lots of gore.
I'm not being obtuse and I didn't say a word about popping moles being better than Doom. I'll admit that it's a long time since I played it though, the last time was a few years ago when I finished it with a friend in co-op in one sitting and it bored me to death, but he drew me a diploma for finishing it in MSPaint, lol.

There's stuff about it that I like and there's stuff I dislike. The demons are boring, the levels are too nonsensical and abstract etc.etc. Maybe it's not for me because I like FPSs more rooted in realism (hm that sounds silly, I played UT and Q3 to death so maybe that's not it or they were an exception) Maybe I should replay it and see if it holds up.

I'd disagree. The enemy variety is pretty huge and so is the weapon variety. You'll constantly find yourself switching weapons to suit the situation, and most enemy types have their own kind of role, the Sirian soldiers and Gnaars are mostly cannon fodder, Kleers always come in packs and will force you to move in other directions but backwards and force you to use grenade launchers (long-range) or the SShotgun/Flamethrower (short-range), werebulls deny rocket launchers (depending on the distance) and usually require a cannonball to dispatch (why do you think they are one of the few enemy types who split in two after being hit by a cannonball in BFE?), biomechs require rocket launchers or you will get rocketed yourself, and headless kamikazes are like a deadline for the player because they will eventually catch up to you, and their unexplained screaming will alert the player that their doom is near, so you'll often target the kamikazes in a pack of enemies. Thankfully they go down easily, so you can catch up to killing the other monsters. There's a bunch of other types I forgot to mention, but fuck scorpions. Fuck those scorpions.
Everyone says the level design is just a bunch of rectangular rooms, which is true, but nobody mentions the enemy placement, which is an integral part of level design and Serious Sam as well.
Think of the werebull assault right before the Great Pyramid, you'll find yourself trying to line up the werebulls for a perfect cannonball shot, and the waves keep intensifying until you can't keep up and are forced to circlestrafe again. TSE tries to mix things up a bit with the gimmicky Newtonian nightmare levels, which were a nice change of pace.
I think it'd be more accurate to call Serious Sam a First Person Mobile-Tower Defense game though, you are constantly trying to keep with all the different shit the enemy throws at you, and you're in a tight position if they get too close. Which raises the question if you like Tower Defense games in the first place.

 

[baturinsky]

SS3 moved a lot of thing around, mostly for the best. Melee now is actually viable, levels are more complex. Not sure if I like that you can outun kamikazes now, though.

 

[Cadmus]

The tower defense comparison is spot on, that's exactly what the game felt like and it was mostly because of the (lack of) level design. It's mostly just a long ass hallway or an open field and tons of enemies with different gimmicks just run at you and spam you with shit. I say gimmicks because that's what it felt like - the suicide guy, the long range guy, the rocket guy etc etc. and it's because the enemy design is just insane and tasteless

 

[Alfons]

SS3 moved a lot of thing around, mostly for the best. Melee now is actually viable, levels are more complex. Not sure if I like that you can outun kamikazes now, though.

SS3 has some of the best and most enjoyable FP melee I ever experienced. Granted that's not saying much since there is almost no competition in that area, but it's really good. I also like the grapple mechanic as a high risk high reward action, what makes it work is the lack of invincibility that most games that include something like that have.

I haven't gone far in the game so these points might be exaggerated or completely false.

-More hit scan enemies. In the original I think the only hit scan enemy was the scorpion now they have 2 varieties of soldier guys, shotgun and rifle I believe. These fuckers always get you when turning a corner.
-More complex level design. Might sound like a plus but the way they did it is shit. Hallways in a horde shooter aren't a good idea, the originals have some of this and it was shit back then too.
-Improved graphics/ "Art direction". I don't remember having trouble seeing shit. The enemies were always easily distinguished from the background. Now that everything is more subdued sometimes I don't notice shit until it's up my ass.
-Big enemies are fucking strong. Scorpions are shit. They are shit. What is the first thing you think when I say serious sam? I'm sure as shit it's not hiding behind walls and peeking out to take pop shots at a tanky hit scan enemy. I only fought one bot but these fuckers are just brutal too, no hit scan but the fuckers are fast as hell and so are their rockets.

In my opinion the game is at it's best when it stays true to the SS formula. Wide horizontal plain with a bunch of shit everywhere. When the game becomes more hallwayish or more intricate the game suffers. It can be fixed but that would require changing the enemies.