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Doom vs Brutal Doom - DISCUSS!

shihonage

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One of those rare cases where every element seems to fit together to perfection.

Whoa, too much credit? Yes Doom had good level design (examples of it including its many puzzles, secrets, resource placement, monster placement etc), cool (but stiff) guns, excellent (but not perfect) audio design and visuals...AI behavior, player movement, pickups and weaponry balanced against each other very nicely...for the time it basically was perfection.

Repeating "for the time" doesn't actually make it true. It is still perfection. There's nothing like it. Some games imitate parts of it, but none capture the whole.

There's more I would have done (and I look to Brutal Doom here, especially its AI and weapons).

Then let us all thank the Gods of Cobol that id software wasn't full of people like you back then.

Don't get me wrong it still was a very complimentary formula indeed, but what I wanted to say is there are plenty of games that have great design synergy and Doom was also dead simple design synergy, at least in comparison to an RPG or Looking Glass game for example.

The burden of proof on the "design synergy" being "dead simple" remains on you. And as long as you keep repeating that, you will continue sounding like a doe-eyed teen with no practical experience in creating any sort of game content.
 

Alfons

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...you will continue sounding like a doe-eyed teen with no practical experience in creating any sort of game content.
58430672.jpg

CyberP My main man. Put him in his place!
 
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Unkillable Cat

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The tower defense comparison is spot on, that's exactly what the game felt like and it was mostly because of the (lack of) level design. It's mostly just a long ass hallway or an open field and tons of enemies with different gimmicks just run at you and spam you with shit. I say gimmicks because that's what it felt like - the suicide guy, the long range guy, the rocket guy etc etc. and it's because the enemy design is just insane and tasteless

Shit, I've never actually contemplated Serious Sam in this regard.

Now compare the final level from SSam: SE. It's one gigantic Tower Defense level through a snaking passage, complete with actual towers and cannons!
 
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The burden of proof on the "design synergy" being "dead simple" remains on you. And as long as you keep repeating that, you will continue sounding like a doe-eyed teen with no practical experience in creating any sort of game content.

Vanilla Doom by today's standards is a very simple game. Simple is easy to master. Nobody has mastered complexity yet, except maybe myself ;)
And don't get me wrong, Doom still has relative complexity. Game development is by default complex, especially when you're creating your own game engine too.

Then let us all thank the Gods of Cobol that id software wasn't full of people like you back then

I think you should actually give the mod a chance. The shit you purists say make it apparent you haven't really done that.
 

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CyberP You quoted the wrong person, but he and I do sound alike on the subject.

I tried BD twice over a long period of time. It continues to be a telling vision of how Doom is perceived by teenagers. Maybe I perceived Doom like this too when I was a teen - taking it entirely for granted, and messing with its game balance.

After all, I even made a utility which combined several popular DEHACKED patches with a DOS interface and sounds from "Mortal Kombat" because that movie was ... kewl. Low gravity, going-under-doors, slow-mo and all other kinds of crap. It was there for lulz, because at that age I WANTED the lulz.

When I showed Fallout to an acquaintance who was new to games, he blew through the first game, and then excitedly started showing me a hack for Fallout2 which overbuffed all the weapons. That excitement was alien to me by that point, but I remembered where it came from. That place of discovery and giddy experimentation.

There's nothing wrong with messing with Doom. However, it's no longer Doom.
 

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Vanilla Doom by today's standards is a very simple game. Simple is easy to master. Nobody has mastered complexity yet, except maybe myself ;)
And don't get me wrong, Doom still has relative complexity. Game development is by default complex, especially when you're creating your own game engine too.

Then how come everyone is spouting that "simple to learn, hard to master" line about so many games? Maybe because on this particular topic, you're wrong?

Vanilla Doom is simple by today's standards, yes. Also loads of fun. I haven't tried Brutal Doom yet, but that comes from sheer lazyness rather than some puritan mentality, I "contaminated" my Doom with the Aeons of Death mod years ago.

It's stupidly easy to fuck up a game with bad game design, even if it's just some little detail that blindsides everyone on the first Tuesday after release. Then modders usually come in, change some other little detail and the next thing you know you have a cascade of modder drama, naysayers and decline rolling over the internet.
 
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BD features great design minus the fatalities.

You've seen all the AI stuff I mentioned, now some focus on the weaponry:

Obviously now in combination with the source port we have full manual aiming, which is a good base to build upon. Adding headshots does just that; it increases the skill cap as precise accuracy is required. Monster HP has also been increased to compensate and the auto aim flag is switched off.
When bullets hit walls we now have ricochet sound effects.
Weapons have improved muzzle flashes, including dynamic light emitted.
Recoil now exists, furthering the skill involved with aiming some more and adding to the personality of each weapon.
There's also subtle camera shaking effects which make the guns feel more realistic and satisfying.
Reloading, while it is understandable that purists can dislike this one, simply means you have to dodge more whilst reloading, or just switch weapon.
Alt fire just adds some nice variety to a weapon. Even aim down the sights has a place as it is entirely optional.
Weapon animations are given more frames, meaning they look smoother in motion.
Every weapon has new sound effects, which is good as the vanilla ones were underwhelming. Only swapping the iconic BFG sound for the Doom 3 one is something I'm not sure one.
Obviously the gore furthers the sense of actually using weapons, as in they tear flesh, a chaingun rips enemies apart, and it makes things more visceral.
New melee attacks add depth (especially kick) and empower the player in a meaningful way. Useful to do if your clip is empty and no time to reload, or to kick barrels into a suitable position as two of many possible examples.
Revenant launcher...is pretty shitty, I'd probably remove it.
Mancubi cannon is decent, but these weapons do mess with Dooms ammo distribution a little, granted.
Explosion effects of the rocket launcher, shooting barrels, plasma effects, particle effects etc all make the weapons more satisfying.

Its all basically stuff a Doom sequel would ideally have, but seriously though fuck the fatalities. What a waste of the modder's talent.
 
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Then how come everyone is spouting that "simple to learn, hard to master" line about so many games?

That's what businessmen within the industry and casuals who follow their lead say. Uncompromising complexity is my ideal type of approach. Said businessmen only want it to be simple to learn so it is easy for everyone to get into, nothing more. Truly empowering skills, programming for example, are not simple to learn and never will be. The easiest form of programming is visual scripting languages, but there's many downsides as a result. The simple to learn hard to master game design mentality so prevalent today is part of what lead to the decline we all so loathe.
Of course you don't want to make it intentionally hard to get into, and subtle cues and other such methods can help the player learn, but if you want it to be strictly simple to get into, then your game has to be simple. The more rules, the more complex, the more unavoidably difficult it makes learning the game.

After all, I even made a utility which combined several popular DEHACKED patches with a DOS interface and sounds from "Mortal Kombat" because that movie was ... kewl. Low gravity, going-under-doors, slow-mo and all other kinds of crap. It was there for lulz, because at that age I WANTED the lulz.
.

Yeah, your typical shitty mod that dilutes the relevance of greater works by sheer numbers. The "doing it for the lulz" approach also pisses me off. Thankfully BD is not categorized as such, again except the stupid fatalities.
 
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CyberP

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Dude, what the fuck are you talking about.

I'm not wrong. The design may be popamole 98% of the time, but engines are significantly more complex and capable of producing far greater quality...if only that potential was actually used. When I say for the time, I mean it was perfection for a FPS using technology of 1993, the engines and hardware of that time. Today we have the capability to far surpass something like Doom.
But even then, I think using perfection to describe Doom is just a little bit too generous. Audio design was underdeveloped, guns were not as fleshed out as they could have been, why couldn't we jump or crouch? The devs included platforming as one aspect of design, after all, but it was a case of running across gaps as opposed to actually jumping. Auto aim the z axis, it wasn't a requirement, though granted it would have slowed things down as aiming on a keyboard is just torture. There's more you could nitpick, but overall it is definitely a solid game.
 

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Dude, what the fuck are you talking about.

I'm not wrong. The design may be popamole 98% of the time, but engines are significantly more complex and capable of producing far greater quality...if only that potential was actually used. When I say for the time, I mean it was perfection for a FPS for technology of 1993, the engines and hardware of that time. Today we have the capability to far surpass something like Doom.
But even then, I think using perfection to describe Doom is just a little bit too generous. Audio design was underdeveloped, guns were not as fleshed out as they could have been, why couldn't we jump or crouch? The devs included platforming as one aspect of design, after all, but it was a case of running across gaps as apposed to actually jumping. Auto aim the z axis, it wasn't a requirement, though granted it would have slowed things down as aiming on a keyboard is just torture. There's more you could nitpick, but overall it is definitely a solid game.
lel I played Doom without sound
(I also played Quake 3 with keyboard aiming until I learned to control the mouse on JK2. I think I even played on Hardcore at some point with the keyboard aiming.)
 

shihonage

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Yeah, your typical shitty mod that dilutes the relevance of greater works by sheer numbers. The "doing it for the lulz" approach also pisses me off. Thankfully BD is not categorized as such, again except the stupid fatalities.

You're right, Brutal Doom is a serious work of art. It's the "Brothers Karamazov" of gaming.
 
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Never said anything of the sort. It is a game-enhancing mod with quite a bit of work put into it which compliments Doom's design well, makes it more skill-based, grants the player more control whilst countering that with more intelligent AI, and expands upon the little details.

If you're too stubborn and butthurt to see past the fatalities and cheesy comic-like marketing, then your loss.
To oppose deeper, more skill-based & polished gameplay is decline of you old fags. Or you were always that way in which case get out.
 
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shihonage

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Never said anything of the sort. It is a game-enhancing mod with quite a bit of work put into it which compliments Doom's design well, makes it more skill-based, grants the player more control whilst countering that with more intelligent AI, and expands upon the little details.

Doom didn't need "intelligent AI". It threw enemies at you in hordes, and levels were based on those mechanics. AI is a red herring in this type of FPS, because the PROPERTIES of individual monster matter far more than them being "smart". A monster having unique movement patterns, or a unique weapon/ability/timing, and PLACEMENT in the level, is far more important than their pathfinding or "tactics". This is the part that every FPS since the 90s got horribly wrong. I partially blame Half-Life.

If Doom wasn't 100% skill-based before, what was that minority percentage based on exactly? Luck-based? I don't even know what you're talking about.

Granting player "more control"? Some would call it "feature creep".

If you're too stubborn and butthurt to see past the fatalities and cheesy comic-like marketing, then your loss.

I was REALLY excited about BD from all the hype, until I actually tried it. The hard truth is, it's NOT a Doom that id software circa 1994 would make if they had more CPU power or time. It's a version of Doom someone would make if they were trying to do "the Doom thing". Like, really hard. It's gimmick incarnate with no sense of direction, pacing, or taste.

To oppose deeper, more skill-based & polished gameplay is decline of you old fags. Or you were always that way in which case get out.

Skill-based? I played Enemy Territory: Quake Wars for years and LOVED it, and still play Tribes: Ascend. I'll save my tears for mourning the loss of those games, rather than some ADHD teens' defilement of a classic.
 
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Doom didn't need "intelligent AI". It threw enemies at you in hordes, and levels were based on those mechanics. AI is a red herring in this type of FPS, because the PROPERTIES of individual monster matter far more than them being "smart". A monster having unique movement patterns, or a unique weapon/ability/timing, and PLACEMENT in the level, is far more important than their pathfinding or "tactics".

And all of that is still there, only with smarter, more aggressive AI thrown on top! Isn't that great. You can only mow through the same dumb AI so many times. I got bored of the same old simplistic AI patterns fast even as a teen.

If Doom wasn't 100% skill-based before, what was that minority percentage based on exactly? Luck-based? I don't even know what you're talking about.

Auto Aim. It was still primary skill-based beyond that but BD just increases the skill cap.

Granting player "more control"? Some would call it "feature creep".

You're a big fat mancubi. And slow like a mancubi. Only possible explanation as to why you wouldn't more more control than just shoot, move and activate.
Greater control = greater gameplay depth = greater engagement of the brain as there's more possible options you can do at any one time, some of which may get you killed f used in the incorrect context.

I was REALLY excited about BD from all the hype, until I actually tried it. The hard truth is, it's NOT a Doom that id software circa 1994 would make if they had more CPU power or time.

Didn't Romero say that they would have broke the industry if Doom was like BD when released in 1993?
 
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shihonage

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And all of that is still there, only with smarter, more aggressive AI thrown on top! Isn't that great. You can only mow through the same dumb AI so many times. I got bored of the same old simplistic AI patterns fast even as a teen.

You can throw the "AI feature" at a game about crowd control, but it will not stop being a game about crowd control.

"AI" was important in games where enemies are either too few, or are designed to mimic human characters. With Doom, it's largely pointless.

... unless, of course, you make enough changes to step away from the formula until it can no longer be, for all intents and purposes, distinguished as "Doom".

Auto Aim. It was still primary skill-based beyond that but BD just increases the skill cap.

Turning off vertical auto-aim (the only auto-aim that existed in Doom) is a feature built into the ports on top of which Brutal Doom mod functions.

BD absolutely had nothing to do with it. It was there since the first Doom port.

And if you're talking about the lack of headshots... their addition is as pointless as the AI. Once again - Crowd. Control.

You're a big fat mancubi. And slow like a mancubi. Only possible explanation as to why you wouldn't more more control than just shoot, move and activate.
Greater control = greater gameplay depth = greater engagement of the brain as there's more possible options you can do at any one time, some of which may get you killed f used in the incorrect context.

This may be true in a mod which is designed with actual thought.

Didn't Romero say that they would have broke the industry if Doom was like BD when released in 1993?

John Romero is the creator of Daikatana, and John Carmack created Doom 3.

History showed that John Romero's actions are irrelevant, just as are those of John Carmack. Them working together with a few correct individuals is what made id software, the creator of Doom. What does id software circa 1993-1995 think of Brutal Doom, we'll never know.
 
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CyberP

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Crowd control yes. Controlling a crowd of fucking retards. Now it's controlling a bunch of retards on steriods. You're acting as if something has been lost. It is rather apparent you haven't actually played the mod or are just blind/retarded.

History showed that John Romero's actions are irrelevant, just as are those of John Carmack.

What the fuck? :retarded:
The whole team would have been relevant, but Carmack is the renowned engine programmer and John Romero the primary level designer...dude, you're meant to be the hardcore Doomfag.

Edit: and if you're referring to their more recent actions specifically, well then you should have specified that. But BD basically IS in part what Doom 3 should have played like.

You're stubborn oldfaggery is boring me now. Enjoy circle strafing retards with underdeveloped weaponry for the 1000th time.
 
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shihonage

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History showed that John Romero's actions are irrelevant, just as are those of John Carmack.

What the fuck? :retarded:

Sigh. Neither of them alone managed to re-capture their former glory and create something that would measure up to what they did together. Therefore, what "one of them" says, doesn't mean jack shit, because what "one of them" did, has amounted to mediocrity. That clear for you now?

Crowd control yes. Controlling a crowd of fucking retards. Now it's controlling a bunch of retards on steriods. You're acting as if something has been lost. It is rather apparent you haven't actually played the mod or are just blind/retarded.

Less is sometimes more.

I was trying to deconstruct the Doom formula back when you were a fresh-faced kindergartener.

Nobody stops you from enjoying your mod, but keep your BD Master Race garbage to yourself. I'm done with you.
 
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I was trying to deconstruct the Doom formula back when you were a fresh-faced kindergartener.

Implying that that is a difficult thing to do :lol:
And no you wasn't, you were making retarded mods "for the lolz".
 

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I'm not wrong. The design may be popamole 98% of the time, but engines are significantly more complex and capable of producing far greater quality...if only that potential was actually used.

:nocountryforshitposters:

We ain't talking about the fucking engine, your fruit loop.
 
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Design and engines go hand in hand. In Doom we couldn't even have multi-story level design for example.
To create "perfection" today whilst making good use of new engines, not so easy.
If we were to make level design that was mostly cube-based today, that shit wouldn't fly. Every critic worth his salt would point it out and mention how it was unmet potential.
With the relative simplicity of the old engines and Dooms simple design scope by today's standards. it was relatively easy for them to create design "perfection".

You do realize that all that popamole shit of today is made by like 100 man-strong weak teams? A lot of hard team work goes into creating a level but your typical Doom level would take 1 level designer a few weeks. sadly, the end result is almost always shit from a gameplay standpoint, but that's beside the point.
 
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Finished UAC Ultra with the new version of Brutal Doom.

There are many changes to the previous one, that cannot be easily seen in the trailer. I will talk only for the classic mode. The pistol/rifle is still very useful, usually on the zombie pistol guys and shotgun seargants especially when we they are very distanced from our positions. Normal shotgun isn't so good and the best effect is always point blank, which is of course difficult in many encounters. What's important is that the speed of super shotgun is lowered. It has a powerful kick, but you will feel the diffrence in handling it. The machinegun is for now a great weapon that will dominate in many levels, especially with some tight corridors. The speed is suffice to make an instant abbatoir in any location. Rocket launcher feels heavy, and I mean really heavy. It's like the missile inside it is just waiting to be released. The hit ratio is big enough to kill you, but from my perspective it isn't lowered or highened up. Plasma is more powerful, you can tell the diffrence when you encounter Arch Villes. BFG is BFG, like it always was.

The pinkies that we can see on trailer are now really vicious creatures. Not only they have bigger running speed, but they bite so hard that when you will be ambushed by them into the corner it's probably game over. When they loose they arm it's just getting worse. Although after a while they bleed out and die if they don't have you on the radar. Another case are machine gun guys. Just 5 of them can perforate you like a swiss cheese. Their reaction is even quicker than in v1.9. Plus they feel more massive and take more bullets to succesfully kill them. Revenants can now shoot rockets more frequently, but they are slower. Plasma spiders are faster. Overall, the monsters changes are nicely implemented. Despite all this BD feels more balanced now thanks to the changes in the arsenal. Plus now the armor really helps to help you survive the unexpected ambushes.

The optimalization is waay better, on Zandroum I had a steady FPS count. Even with all the blood sprites erupting.

I omitted some stuff that you will quickly discover yourselves, but it really feels better and it's not just a couple of changes but extensively tested build. I'll be cross testing it with Beautiful Doom for some more challenging wads.
 

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