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Incline Dominions 4 announced

Grimwulf

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This thread is the closest thing we have to Dominions general discussion, so...

What's the deal with patch notes like
"Stat and description fixes
Various nation fixes"


How am I supposed to know what those fixes are? One would think that if it's not elaborated in detail, then those "fixes" are nuthin' serious. Like fixing typos and such.

But THEN one notices that Gaze of Death is gone completely from the game after 4.21 or 4.22 - I'm not even sure which one exactly, coz there's not a word about it in the changelog. Just "stat fixes" or "nation fixes", ffs. Previously it was a ranged attack that dealt 999 damage over aoe 5 and range 20, although could be MR negated. It was pretty rare, but some units could do it (Catoblepas, Basilisk, Abomination, some national heroes). Now it only does 15 AN damage, and still can be MR negated. In other words, it's completely useless.

Yes, this post is butthurt post, coz I invested a shitton of water gems in Catoblepases in one of pbems, preparing for war with Ashdod. Back when I just started summoning them, the Gaze of Death was still inflicting 999 damage, then it was changed mid-game. But my butthurt is not the point.

I am really confused about WHY was it changed at all? Which of the GoD summons was so overpowered that it required nerfing? Was it Cross Breeding? Catoblepas? Abomination? The last two were situational at best (and very overpriced for what they are), and now I can't imagine anyone in sane mind using those summons. And Cross Breeding - come on, you can't seriously count on getting significant amount of Basilisks even in Luck 3. It's so random and rare, not even worth mentioning. The logic behind this change, and the reason of why it wasn't mentioned in changelogs elude me.

Also, Gaze of Death should be renamed to Uncomfortable Stare.

:decline:
 

Johannes

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This thread is the closest thing we have to Dominions general discussion, so...

What's the deal with patch notes like
"Stat and description fixes
Various nation fixes"


How am I supposed to know what those fixes are? One would think that if it's not elaborated in detail, then those "fixes" are nuthin' serious. Like fixing typos and such.

But THEN one notices that Gaze of Death is gone completely from the game after 4.21 or 4.22 - I'm not even sure which one exactly, coz there's not a word about it in the changelog. Just "stat fixes" or "nation fixes", ffs. Previously it was a ranged attack that dealt 999 damage over aoe 5 and range 20, although could be MR negated. It was pretty rare, but some units could do it (Catoblepas, Basilisk, Abomination, some national heroes). Now it only does 15 AN damage, and still can be MR negated. In other words, it's completely useless.

Yes, this post is butthurt post, coz I invested a shitton of water gems in Catoblepases in one of pbems, preparing for war with Ashdod. Back when I just started summoning them, the Gaze of Death was still inflicting 999 damage, then it was changed mid-game. But my butthurt is not the point.

I am really confused about WHY was it changed at all? Which of the GoD summons was so overpowered that it required nerfing? Was it Cross Breeding? Catoblepas? Abomination? The last two were situational at best (and very overpriced for what they are), and now I can't imagine anyone in sane mind using those summons. And Cross Breeding - come on, you can't seriously count on getting significant amount of Basilisks even in Luck 3. It's so random and rare, not even worth mentioning. The logic behind this change, and the reason of why it wasn't mentioned in changelogs elude me.

Also, Gaze of Death should be renamed to Uncomfortable Stare.

:decline:
:what:

I did not know that at all. Retarded change if you ask me, none of the units with it were that good to start with, with Balor too you'd rather cast spells most of the time than use that.
 
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i so wish i could enjoy this game, it's exactly the kind of strategy game i'd play to death. but it's such a micromanagement hell with an inadequate interface and lots of hidden informations, starting from the very race selection.
 

Dayyālu

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i so wish i could enjoy this game, it's exactly the kind of strategy game i'd play to death. but it's such a micromanagement hell with an inadequate interface and lots of hidden informations, starting from the very race selection.

Stop worrying and just try. I loathe micromanagement and am kinda derpy with a ton of things, yet I can somehow enjoy the drug.

It's less complex than other games, truth be told, I mean, there are tons of hidden and weird mechanics, but it's darkly intuitive in some regards. I don't know, MOBAs and RTSs played at "pro" level require far more 'spergin than Dominions. Not to talk about "proper" wargames like War In the East or the like.

Start a newbie game, get some people in, and ask to the vets. Community is almost nice.

T The logic behind this change, and the reason of why it wasn't mentioned in changelogs elude me.

Also, Gaze of Death should be renamed to Uncomfortable Stare.

Illwinter is not a bunch of players, we all know. They do it for consistency, or just for fun. We endure. I'd like to have shields on the human MA Atlantis troops, for a start.
 

mondblut

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But THEN one notices that Gaze of Death is gone completely from the game after 4.21 or 4.22 - I'm not even sure which one exactly, coz there's not a word about it in the changelog. Just "stat fixes" or "nation fixes", ffs. Previously it was a ranged attack that dealt 999 damage over aoe 5 and range 20, although could be MR negated. It was pretty rare, but some units could do it (Catoblepas, Basilisk, Abomination, some national heroes). Now it only does 15 AN damage, and still can be MR negated. In other words, it's completely useless.

You sure about it all? I did a quick google, and a wiki says, Balor (EA Fomoria unique hero) has gaze of death attack of AN15. In Dom3.
 
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i so wish i could enjoy this game, it's exactly the kind of strategy game i'd play to death. but it's such a micromanagement hell with an inadequate interface and lots of hidden informations, starting from the very race selection.

Stop worrying and just try. I loathe micromanagement and am kinda derpy with a ton of things, yet I can somehow enjoy the drug.

It's less complex than other games, truth be told, I mean, there are tons of hidden and weird mechanics, but it's darkly intuitive in some regards. I don't know, MOBAs and RTSs played at "pro" level require far more 'spergin than Dominions. Not to talk about "proper" wargames like War In the East or the like.

Start a newbie game, get some people in, and ask to the vets. Community is almost nice.

T The logic behind this change, and the reason of why it wasn't mentioned in changelogs elude me.

Also, Gaze of Death should be renamed to Uncomfortable Stare.

Illwinter is not a bunch of players, we all know. They do it for consistency, or just for fun. We endure. I'd like to have shields on the human MA Atlantis troops, for a start.
i have 9 hours on it, i'd say i tried enough.
it's not complexity which scares me, that's actually what attracts me, but this game sucks.
take this for example: to have an extensive (but still not clarifying of its mechanics) description of a race you have to select it. While you create the game you pick a race from the list, click on it and there's no turning back, you fucking have first to create a god, name a god, load/create the map and start a game, then you quit to main menu and try again. and still you haven't the slightest idea of how that race would have worked. like that one who does't spread dominions if not only by temples and prophets. i can't read anywhere, in game, about this.
issues like this make for a terrible game.
 

Grimwulf

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You sure about it all? I did a quick google, and a wiki says, Balor (EA Fomoria unique hero) has gaze of death attack of AN15. In Dom3.

Just checked Dom3 - you are right, it used to deal 15 damage back then.

izmqpm.jpg


But I'm 100% positive it dealt 999 damage in Dom 4. Can't find a screenshot right now, but maybe later.

take this for example: to have an extensive (but still not clarifying of its mechanics) description of a race you have to select it. While you create the game you pick a race from the list, click on it and there's no turning back, you fucking have first to create a god, name a god, load/create the map and start a game, then you quit to main menu and try again. and still you haven't the slightest idea of how that race would have worked. like that one who does't spread dominions if not only by temples and prophets. i can't read anywhere, in game, about this.

You do know about the manual, right?
 

Matalarata

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You have to approach Dominion from a different angle, yes a better interface would do wonders but this is first and foremost a communal game, information is hidden for a purpose, you'll need to get your ass handed and listen to your betters. Turns require you to think on a grand scale and the clunkiness of the UI sometimes lets you notice hidden moves or little tweaks that can make or break your strategy.
The combat system is incredibly deep and robust, even with just 5 rounds of passive scripts, this gives you so much freedom that that you can't really think in terms of hard or soft counters, everything could happen, even a noob can surprise you with unconventional strategies or just a solid preparation.
It's the only game I know where the distinction between raiding and actual conquest has meaning, and the only one that avoids doomstacking with such elegant and simple solutions. Many games consider supply lines, how many allow you to sneak in a scout behind enemy lines, carring a magical cauldron of broth and an eldritch mirror which fools your enemies into thinking a 50 man army just appeared from thin air?
Or forge a magical staff, give it to a mage to summon a powerful elemental minion, give the staff to said minion and summon a frickin' Elemental God (paraphrasis, you can actually do that in different ways to summon/forge/cast... things.)

As with games like dwarf fortress (even more than with it, if you ask me...) a game of such complexity means some slack has to be cut to the devs. I, for one, would prefer them to add 100s of interesting units, items and spells to the game instead of rebuilding the interface.

Edit: also:
:nocountryforshitposters:
 
Last edited:

Malakal

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i so wish i could enjoy this game, it's exactly the kind of strategy game i'd play to death. but it's such a micromanagement hell with an inadequate interface and lots of hidden informations, starting from the very race selection.

TBH the more experience you have the less time your turns take.
 

Johannes

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You sure about it all? I did a quick google, and a wiki says, Balor (EA Fomoria unique hero) has gaze of death attack of AN15. In Dom3.

Just checked Dom3 - you are right, it used to deal 15 damage back then.

izmqpm.jpg


But I'm 100% positive it dealt 999 damage in Dom 4. Can't find a screenshot right now, but maybe later.

take this for example: to have an extensive (but still not clarifying of its mechanics) description of a race you have to select it. While you create the game you pick a race from the list, click on it and there's no turning back, you fucking have first to create a god, name a god, load/create the map and start a game, then you quit to main menu and try again. and still you haven't the slightest idea of how that race would have worked. like that one who does't spread dominions if not only by temples and prophets. i can't read anywhere, in game, about this.

You do know about the manual, right?
Actually just checked, I had a Dominions version 4.20 installed on my laptop. It does 15 damage there. Nicely done, you had me there for a sec.
 

Johannes

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i so wish i could enjoy this game, it's exactly the kind of strategy game i'd play to death. but it's such a micromanagement hell with an inadequate interface and lots of hidden informations, starting from the very race selection.

TBH the more experience you have the less time your turns take.
I don't think there's a big correlation. You can stare at the map for a long time thinking of different options and optimizing scripts no matter your experience. You can get faster with time, for sure, you automate the things that took a lot of effort previously - but it's easy to then spend that saved time into adjusting minor details you previously never thought about. At least for the later turns. Expansion goes as a breeze when you're good at it.

Time taken per turn depends a lot on the nation, too.
 

Malakal

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i so wish i could enjoy this game, it's exactly the kind of strategy game i'd play to death. but it's such a micromanagement hell with an inadequate interface and lots of hidden informations, starting from the very race selection.

TBH the more experience you have the less time your turns take.
I don't think there's a big correlation. You can stare at the map for a long time thinking of different options and optimizing scripts no matter your experience. You can get faster with time, for sure, you automate the things that took a lot of effort previously - but it's easy to then spend that saved time into adjusting minor details you previously never thought about. At least for the later turns. Expansion goes as a breeze when you're good at it.

Time taken per turn depends a lot on the nation, too.

Yea nah. With experience you know what to spells to use and research. You know what mages to script with what. You know the shortcuts, about copy pasting mage orders. You know what to build where and what to recruit. Even super late game turns rarely take more than 30min for me.
 

Johannes

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i so wish i could enjoy this game, it's exactly the kind of strategy game i'd play to death. but it's such a micromanagement hell with an inadequate interface and lots of hidden informations, starting from the very race selection.

TBH the more experience you have the less time your turns take.
I don't think there's a big correlation. You can stare at the map for a long time thinking of different options and optimizing scripts no matter your experience. You can get faster with time, for sure, you automate the things that took a lot of effort previously - but it's easy to then spend that saved time into adjusting minor details you previously never thought about. At least for the later turns. Expansion goes as a breeze when you're good at it.

Time taken per turn depends a lot on the nation, too.

Yea nah. With experience you know what to spells to use and research. You know what mages to script with what. You know the shortcuts, about copy pasting mage orders. You know what to build where and what to recruit. Even super late game turns rarely take more than 30min for me.
And there's a lot of newbies too who never do turns longer than that. And a lot of great players who take consistently long turns. As I said there isn't a big correlation even if it worked that way for you personally.
 
Joined
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You have to approach Dominion from a different angle, yes a better interface would do wonders but this is first and foremost a communal game, information is hidden for a purpose, you'll need to get your ass handed and listen to your betters. Turns require you to think on a grand scale and the clunkiness of the UI sometimes lets you notice hidden moves or little tweaks that can make or break your strategy.
The combat system is incredibly deep and robust, even with just 5 rounds of passive scripts, this gives you so much freedom that that you can't really think in terms of hard or soft counters, everything could happen, even a noob can surprise you with unconventional strategies or just a solid preparation.
It's the only game I know where the distinction between raiding and actual conquest has meaning, and the only one that avoids doomstacking with such elegant and simple solutions. Many games consider supply lines, how many allow you to sneak in a scout behind enemy lines, carring a magical cauldron of broth and an eldritch mirror which fools your enemies into thinking a 50 man army just appeared from thin air?
Or forge a magical staff, give it to a mage to summon a powerful elemental minion, give the staff to said minion and summon a frickin' Elemental God (paraphrasis, you can actually do that in different ways to summon/forge/cast... things.)

As with games like dwarf fortress (even more than with it, if you ask me...) a game of such complexity means some slack has to be cut to the devs. I, for one, would prefer them to add 100s of interesting units, items and spells to the game instead of rebuilding the interface.

Edit: also:
:nocountryforshitposters:


again, i don't doubt the game's depth.
how much gold and resources per turn do i gather? mistery. i could automate recruiting, but without knowing this it makes very little sense.
i can build a palisade and a fortress! what's their function? no way to know.
what kind of troops will this race have? i'm not supposed to know until i start a game with it.
why can't there be a small symbol on regions with idle generals? why not a pop-up button "idle generals" which cycles through them or gives me a list?
why do i have to press fucking space to access each general available actions and lmb to move?
too many troops which are basically the same, only that 90% of them are less useful than cannon fodder and the only way to understand this is taking pen and paper, writing down all their values and make math.
and 9 hours are a whole lot more than necessary to have a feeling of an interface. 10 minutes are enough. sometimes 10 seconds are enough.

yes, i know there's a manual. i also know there's in-game enciclopedias at least since civilization. civ did that because it was NECESSARY.
 

Johannes

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how much gold and resources per turn do i gather? mistery. i could automate recruiting, but without knowing this it makes very little sense.
i can build a palisade and a fortress! what's their function? no way to know.
Income of a province is determined by population. Then altered by scales and unrest. Resources is terrain type dependant, in forts you draw also resources from adjacent provinces. Palisade and fortress let you recruit nationals. Did you not get this basic info in 9 hours?
 

Berekän

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Asking too much of someone that hasn't even bothered to read the fucking manual
 

Dreaad

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i so wish i could enjoy this game, it's exactly the kind of strategy game i'd play to death. but it's such a micromanagement hell with an inadequate interface and lots of hidden informations, starting from the very race selection.

Stop worrying and just try. I loathe micromanagement and am kinda derpy with a ton of things, yet I can somehow enjoy the drug.

It's less complex than other games, truth be told, I mean, there are tons of hidden and weird mechanics, but it's darkly intuitive in some regards. I don't know, MOBAs and RTSs played at "pro" level require far more 'spergin than Dominions. Not to talk about "proper" wargames like War In the East or the like.

Start a newbie game, get some people in, and ask to the vets. Community is almost nice.

T The logic behind this change, and the reason of why it wasn't mentioned in changelogs elude me.

Also, Gaze of Death should be renamed to Uncomfortable Stare.

Illwinter is not a bunch of players, we all know. They do it for consistency, or just for fun. We endure. I'd like to have shields on the human MA Atlantis troops, for a start.
i have 9 hours on it, i'd say i tried enough.
it's not complexity which scares me, that's actually what attracts me, but this game sucks.
take this for example: to have an extensive (but still not clarifying of its mechanics) description of a race you have to select it. While you create the game you pick a race from the list, click on it and there's no turning back, you fucking have first to create a god, name a god, load/create the map and start a game, then you quit to main menu and try again. and still you haven't the slightest idea of how that race would have worked. like that one who does't spread dominions if not only by temples and prophets. i can't read anywhere, in game, about this.
issues like this make for a terrible game.
:hmmm: Have you tried looking through the manual? :D It's there for a reason.
 

Raghar

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You can't git gud at the game if you play sp-only. A lot of stuff just doesn't work against AI, but is extremely effective against mortals, and vice versa. Basically, AI is just there to replace players who quit the game in the mid of pbem.
What doesn't work against AI, but is effective against normal players?
 

Grimwulf

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Long-winded and confusing diplo messages for one.

This, first and foremost. Diplomacy is everything in large-scale pbems.

But among other things (first that come to mind):
- AI fucking loves to suicide itself. Even on PD. Usually you don't invest much gold in PD during pbems - in fact, PD 1 is more than enough in most cases. But in sp, investing SHITTON of gold in PD is pretty damn effective - AI will attack it and die over and over again.
- AI is obessed with patrolling his provinces, and on higher difficulty levels (which you obviously should prefer to give AI at least a resemblance of hope) AI gets a massive boost to patrolling, due to hordes of chaff he receives. All your stealthy warfare (assassins, glam elves SC, Bane Venom Charms, and whatnot) basically don't work.
- AI doesn't understand supply. At all. Starving armies are a common sight in sp, but you barely ever see them in mp - homo sapiens usually plans supply usage ahead, and makes magic food/splits armies if needed.
- AI scripting is shit. Literally shit. You will never understand the game when playing with AI.
 

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