Game News Divinity: Original Sin released on GOG

[PowerTorment]

Isn't the main issue here post-release physical retail distribution for non-Kickstarter backers? Seems to me that printing boxes for a few thousand backers shouldn't be a big deal either way.

Wouldn't printing boxes for such in such small numbers (from retail perspective) actually be more expensive than printing in huge numbers with all the discounts that would mean?

Maybe, but I get the feeling that the main problem on Swen's end isn't so much expenses as it is having to time his release to line up with retailers' preferred release windows and stuff like that. I might be wrong, though.

I got the impression Swen was referring to the backer stuff as well. Also, the boxes are just some of the stuff they shipped. I am happy with my stuff but I understand him. There's T-shirts, crafting cards, playing cards, cloth maps, concept art, stickers, manual, dice, audio CD, and poster. I can only imagine the hassle that has been. So far I got 3 packages sent and I expect more later...

And did you any of you get the physical art book yet. Mine was not in the box.

 

[Onholyservicebound]

Spoiler

The orcs in D:OS imo were just about the worst take on the creature I'd ever seen. Doesn't actually look half bad here, that top left is very cool. But meh, what game has ever accurately translated it's concept art anyway?
The real question is why hasn't anyone complained about the female orcs yet? The dimorphism between males and females is hilarious, I remember a lot of people making a fuss about that in WoW, here the males are literally gorillas and the females literally hot green women.

Anyway, cool stuff there.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

But meh, what game has ever accurately translated it's concept art anyway?

Happens with cars too.

 

[l3loodAngel]

Could be add-ons.

snip...

I was referring to this part: "(and no, I don't know why KickStarter's amount raised and number of backers is different than when you add up all the tiers manually)"

Now that I think of it, it could also be add-ons + shipping. And that is even worse for Obsi, because shipping is money that Obsi will not have a chance to use.

Tax and KS fees are irrelevant as they're equally applied to all tiers. Producing the physical goods is an issue and I totally agree, but it's clear people are willing to pay more for those physical goods that should make it profitable. I do think some KickStarters got carried away and didn't realise how much some of this would cost though (which is just lack of business skills) - even with all the extra work they added for the digital tiers (adding in named pets, custom content for players costs development money).

Yeah but 65$ for a boxed version with localized translation does not cut it. People won't be willing to pay $250 for a simple box and even if they do the company won't manage to achieve the quantity needed. Higher price = lower quantity, but the thing is that the quantity was never sufficient in the first place.

If it was unprofitable for DOS, it was because they didn't have clear physical tiers and got caught up in their digital clutter. Look at the numbers and you can see D:OS raised most of its money from all the tiers under $65 (Over $575k or 65% of their funds raised). So again, people aren't after add-ons. They don't want extra personal digital crap as much. They're after copies of the game. Some people want a boxed copy though and that's what D:OS missed out on.

I was referring strictly to PE (except where I specifically mentioned other projects), because comparing 3 projects simultaneously could be time consuming. DOS raised less, because they don't have such following and cult titles as Obsidian or its employees do. I would be really surprised if they received less due to lack of good boxed tiers. I would call DOS their first good game.

If true, then removing the digital tier would result in more people buying the physical tier. AMIRITE?

IMO yes. If the only way of getting the game would be boxed I would pay for boxed. But likely after release as I would need time to accumulate more money. Boxed + shipping etc.

AND that could mean much more money for developers.

It wouldn't mean that much more - and in fact could mean less. The P:E digital tiers of $20.00, $25.00, $35.00 and $50.00 have 60,048 backers and raise $1,603,320.

Depends. I believe that this cost or time spent on it may be the elephant in the room: "getting Original Sin translated and age-rated in multiple territories prior to release."

(How many people would you lose? How many people are buying the digital tiers because that's all the money they're willing to risk on the project and how many people are buying the Signed Collector's Box because money isn't an issue and they just want to support the game but want something physical to show for it?)

By comparison, the $65, $140 and $250 tiers (the boxed versions) only have 9,060 backers (Less than 1/6th the number of people) and yet they raise $1,174,110. If we include all the super high add-on content tiers, it's about even. But if those 9,060 backers all decided, "Well, if I can't have a box / cloth map / signed box, so I may as well just get the digital tier" it'd only be $453,000 a $721,110 reduction. You also add the risk that they could've decided "well, fuck it I'm just not buying anything" and you lose anywhere up to the full $1.1M.

I would estimate that all those who bought $65, $140, $250, $350, $500 would buy the lower digital reward. So $65 tier would buy $50, $140 would buy $110 and other tiers would buy $165 digital tier.

And I would assume that the company would loose anywhere between 30% of customers (my best estimate) and 50% of customers (my conservative estimate) buying boxed tiers up to $500. Obsi would lose from $717,772 to $903,503 of revenue. Now how much profit they would lose is a completely different story that dependent on the costs. Game companies are worst in reporting so estimating is the only way to go.

 

[80Maxwell08]

As someone who only donates at a physical tier I don't mind if they charge $15-30 more for a boxed copy if it's a hassle to make them in large numbers. I donated to PoE at the $250 tier so they could get more money from me with only singing the box. Of course someone at Obsidian would later hate the idea of me paying more for so little and threw nearly every single add-on they could at me.

 

[mindx2]

"Don’t do anything physical," says Vincke, when I ask him about recommendations for his fellow developers who are thinking about using Kickstarter. "I would never again do all the boxed stuff, and I regret that we spent so much time on everything related to making a physical release happen."

Bad, bad, bad idea.

Almost half was raised just from adding "Physical Box, Collector's Box and Signed Collector's Box" alone (and no, I don't know why KickStarter's amount raised and number of backers is different than when you add up all the tiers manually).

Could be add-ons.

I'm only talking about those first 3 Project: Eternity Physical tiers:

1. Physical Box = $248,170

Pledge $65 or more; 3818 backers

Previous reward tier + BOX VERSION OF PROJECT ETERNITY. The boxed copy will include a DVD version of the game and a printed manual. This is in addition to the digital version of the game (so 2 copies total!). Please add $15 for international shipping.​

2. Collector's Box = $489,440

Pledge $140 or more; 3496 backers

Previous reward tier + we will upgrade your box to a COLLECTOR'S EDITION BOX. You will find a CLOTH MAP OF THE GAME WORLD and the PROJECT ETERNITY CLOTH PATCH inside the box + EARLY BETA ACCESS + PROJECT ETERNITY MOUSE PAD. The collector's edition box will include a cloth map just like the old RPGs that we love. You will also get early access to the game with a BETA KEY. Includes Making of Project Eternity Documentary (DVD/Blu-ray). The game patch is an embroidered high quality non-iron on patch. Game patches are a tradition at Obsidian, and we want to share that tradition with you! Please add $20 for international shipping.​

3. Signed Collector's Box = $436,500

Pledge $250 or more; 1746 backers

Previous reward tier + you get your COLLECTOR'S EDITION BOX signed by CHRIS AVELLONE, TIM CAIN, JOSH SAWYER, and the rest of the development team + full color printed PROJECT ETERNITY COLLECTOR'S BOOK + an elite version of the PROJECT ETERNITY CLOTH PATCH. The book will be a full color book that includes concept art, player's handbook, monster manual, exclusive information about the campaign setting and characters, and a special behind the scenes look at making the game. Please add $30 for international shipping.​

I don't think you can say someone paying $250 for the Collector's Box is just after the other add-ons, they want that Collector's Box. Same as with the Physical box and the Signed Box. The total for tiers higher than that is another $489,750, which is only half of the $1,174,110 total from those three box editions above. I'm not saying don't do the really high tiers and bonuses, but you can clearly see people are looking for a copy of the game either in Digital Form, Physical Form, Collector's Edition or Signed Collector's Edition. They're the options that raise the most and have the most backers.

You ignore the fact that it's not the final amount the company gets. You have to subtract KS fees, sales/vat tax and actually produce physical goods.

Tax and KS fees are irrelevant as they're equally applied to all tiers. Producing the physical goods is an issue and I totally agree, but it's clear people are willing to pay more for those physical goods that should make it profitable. I do think some KickStarters got carried away and didn't realise how much some of this would cost though (which is just lack of business skills) - even with all the extra work they added for the digital tiers (adding in named pets, custom content for players costs development money).

So we don't know how much money there is actually left for developers. In manufacturing physical goods quantity is the main way to receive profit. Low quantity + high quality =/= profit (in most cases). Manufacturing boxed sets for PE, WL2 or some other big project might be feasible and slightly profitable, while for DOS it might be unprofitable.

If it was unprofitable for DOS, it was because they didn't have clear physical tiers and got caught up in their digital clutter. Look at the numbers and you can see D:OS raised most of its money from all the tiers under $65 (Over $575k or 65% of their funds raised). So again, people aren't after add-ons. They don't want extra personal digital crap as much. They're after copies of the game. Some people want a boxed copy though and that's what D:OS missed out on.

Another thing is that people who would not buy physical goods would likely buy digital version.

If true, then removing the digital tier would result in more people buying the physical tier. AMIRITE?

See how that doesn't work?

(How many people would you lose? How many people are buying the digital tiers because that's all the money they're willing to risk on the project and how many people are buying the Signed Collector's Box because money isn't an issue and they just want to support the game but want something physical to show for it?)

AND that could mean much more money for developers.

It wouldn't mean that much more - and in fact could mean less. The P:E digital tiers of $20.00, $25.00, $35.00 and $50.00 have 60,048 backers and raise $1,603,320.

By comparison, the $65, $140 and $250 tiers (the boxed versions) only have 9,060 backers (Less than 1/6th the number of people) and yet they raise $1,174,110. If we include all the super high add-on content tiers, it's about even. But if those 9,060 backers all decided, "Well, if I can't have a box / cloth map / signed box, so I may as well just get the digital tier" it'd only be $453,000 a $721,110 reduction. You also add the risk that they could've decided "well, fuck it I'm just not buying anything" and you lose anywhere up to the full $1.1M.

While I do think they may have lost more money on that $65 tier compared to the $50 (or more accurately, made more money on the $50 digital tier), I don't think you can argue that an extra $110 to have a cloth map signed would be a "loss". Like-wise a Cloth Map, Mouse Pad and embroidered patch can't cost $75 to manufacture (the difference between the Standard and Collector's Edition). I can get custom printed Mouse Pads for $5 each from my local printer and that's at quantities of 500 and a quick google of a bunch of fabric printing places shows prices around $20 for one-offs (depending on material and size). I'd think a few hundred (or getting it done in China) would reduce that down to around the $10 mark. Plenty of places do the embroidered patch too. Hell, I had a company name hand-stitched into a shirt for $15 and if you can buy patches online for $5 - $10 they can't be more than that to manufacture.

I do think the physical box tier at $65 is priced way too low though. It's an extra $15 above the $50 "Digital Collector's Edition" tier. But then, it's a DVD, manual and a cardboard box. Those things aren't expensive and I'd trust a company that's made boxed games in the past to actually know their pricing on that.

Either way, that has impacts on the KickStarter and it's marketing - which I think is seen in the D:OS KickStarter where while they only asked for $400,000 and got $900,000 - P:E was asking for $1.1M. If D:OS had asked for $1.1M would they have gotten it without physicals? If D:OS had had better and clearer physical tiers, would they have made a lot more money and reached higher stretch goals? It then feeds into a "failed KickStarter" versus "successful KickStarter" in all the marketing. "Oh, here's this game that failed it's KickStarter..." which presumably would have a potentially larger impact on sales down the track.

Besides, you have a made a logical fallacy by attributing high level tiers to physical rewards. Designing a custom portrait, inn, a party or weapon should be digital. Or split even to not skew the calculation.

No, that's why I said for Eternity that "Almost half was raised just from adding "Physical Box, Collector's Box and Signed Collector's Box" alone" IE: Ignoring all the rest of that crap down the bottom and basically excluding it from both sides of the equation. It's also why I posted the numbers, so you can actually see how much money comes in from only a relative handful of people compared to the masses buying the digital copies.

Couldn't have said it better myself... can I forward this to Swen?:D

Spoiler

Not being as elegant and logical as you my argument would have boiled down to
"YOU WON'T GET A DIME FROM ME WITHOUT A SIGNED BOXED COPY BEING DELIVERED TO ME!!!!"

 

[Abelian]

Game patches are a tradition at Obsidian, and we want to share that tradition with you

Game patches are a tradition because of the bugs hurr durr

 

[Sceptic]

Couldn't have said it better myself... can I forward this to Sven?:D

You have GOT to do this.
I might have pledged if there were no physical box... maybe. If I had though, I'd have given the exact bare minimum to get a digital copy and nothing else (which was... what, $20?). And only if I were convinced that the minimal pledge isn't more expensive than just buying the digital copy at release. Instead, by going MAP! BOX! Larian got FIVE TIMES more money out of me. As did, incidentally, Big Finish for Tesla Effect.

And you RPG fags need to get with the times. TB RPGs are dead. I'm sorry but you can no longer caress, cradle, and jizz on your superior gameplay.

Very compelling argument. Especially on the codex in this day and age...

Don't mind him. It's Metro. If the thread isn't about him begging for free games his brain tends to short circuit.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Where do all you physicalfags keep your boxes?

 

[mindx2]

Where do all you physicalfags keep your boxes?

I have an "office/ den" in my house which is my own sanctum sanctorum. It's where the computer is as well as all my games, books and other collectibles. My wife gets the rest of the house... .

 

[Athelas]

DarkUnderlord, it's not exactly rocket science why D:OS' Kickstarter raised less compared to P:E, WL2 and T:ToN. Unknown Belgian company vs. Black Isle nostalgia. The fact that a completely obscure outfit like InXile received millions should be an indication of how strong that nostalgia is. Can't believe you put all that effort into that analysis that completely misses the point.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Where do all you physicalfags keep your boxes?

When I moved out from my parents house, I had to leave my boxed games at home because in my flat, it would just take space away from otherthings.

 

[mindx2]

DarkUnderlord, it's not exactly rocket science why D:OS' Kickstarter raised less compared to P:E, WL2 and T:ToN. Unknown Belgian company vs. Black Isle nostalgia. The fact that a completely obscure outfit like InXile received millions should be an indication of how strong that nostalgia is. Can't believe you put all that effort into that analysis that completely misses the point.

I don't think you realize that people, such as myself, will NOT spend as much on KS without those collector edition boxes... period. I don't care what game it's based on I will NOT sink $100s for digital only. I was all excited about The Banner Saga when it first started on KS (loved the artwork) but the minute I saw no boxed copies and them specifically stating they would not have any my pledge dropped to the lowest tier for the game only. This is true of every KS game that hasn't included a boxed Collector's copy tier.

It's a reality that I hope these companies keep in mind for the future. Part of the nostalgic pull of KS is also in the promise of those "old school" boxes and their cloth maps, manuals, trinkets, etc. It's part of the whole appeal to those games of yesteryear.

 

[Volourn]

Yup. Same here. Box or GTFO.

 

[Excidium]

Nostalgiafags crack me up

 

[l3loodAngel]

DarkUnderlord, it's not exactly rocket science why D:OS' Kickstarter raised less compared to P:E, WL2 and T:ToN. Unknown Belgian company vs. Black Isle nostalgia. The fact that a completely obscure outfit like InXile received millions should be an indication of how strong that nostalgia is. Can't believe you put all that effort into that analysis that completely misses the point.

It's a reality that I hope these companies keep in mind for the future. Part of the nostalgic pull of KS is also in the promise of those "old school" boxes and their cloth maps, manuals, trinkets, etc. It's part of the whole appeal to those games of yesteryear.

OMG. So they were not catering to RPG fans after all. They were catering to hoarders!!!

 

[Grunker]

Nostalgiafags crack me up

There are two kinds of Codexers: the ones who deserve their reputation, and the ones who don't.

 

[Excidium]

DarkUnderlord, it's not exactly rocket science why D:OS' Kickstarter raised less compared to P:E, WL2 and T:ToN. Unknown Belgian company vs. Black Isle nostalgia. The fact that a completely obscure outfit like InXile received millions should be an indication of how strong that nostalgia is. Can't believe you put all that effort into that analysis that completely misses the point.

It's a reality that I hope these companies keep in mind for the future. Part of the nostalgic pull of KS is also in the promise of those "old school" boxes and their cloth maps, manuals, trinkets, etc. It's part of the whole appeal to those games of yesteryear.

OMG. So they were not catering to RPG fans after all. They were catering to hoarders!!!

No they just completely miss the point of physical copies much like most other things about CRPGs, it's just there as a checkmark on the list of how to do a "classic" game. Of course that there are people with more money than sense to actually buy those is another story

Actually I'd give Larian some credit because at least the map integrates with the game in some way iirc

 

[Metro]

Collecting game boxes is as faggy as collecting beanie babies.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

I was referring to this part: "(and no, I don't know why KickStarter's amount raised and number of backers is different than when you add up all the tiers manually)"

Now that I think of it, it could also be add-ons + shipping. And that is even worse for Obsi, because shipping is money that Obsi will not have a chance to use.

Ahh... ok. And yeah, seems funny. Not quite sure where those extra numbers are coming from.

DOS raised less, because they don't have such following and cult titles as Obsidian or its employees do. I would be really surprised if they received less due to lack of good boxed tiers. I would call DOS their first good game.

+

DarkUnderlord, it's not exactly rocket science why D:OS' Kickstarter raised less compared to P:E, WL2 and T:ToN. Unknown Belgian company vs. Black Isle nostalgia. The fact that a completely obscure outfit like InXile received millions should be an indication of how strong that nostalgia is. Can't believe you put all that effort into that analysis that completely misses the point.

You can't say "Unknown Belgian company vs. Black Isle nostalgia" in one sentence, and then say "completely obscure outfit like InXile" in the next. You're basically saying how well-known the company is is irrelevant. And D:OS had plenty of BIS-style nostalgia going for it:

"Picture a modern version of a world not unlike that of Ultima VII, explored either alone or with a friend, that sees you engage adversaries in tactical turn-based combat reminiscent of the great turn-based RPGs of the past. A world that is filled to the brim with choice and consequence situations, reactive NPCs, and a considerable amount of surprises. A world that captures the feeling of playing pen and paper RPGs with our friends. Then add the new stuff..." - Vision statement for Divinity: Original Sin​

Mind you, boxes are also pretty nostalgic of that era too, so you surely must agree that more nostalgia == greater KickStarter success. Addressing l3loodAngel's point more, Larian were known. They have as good a (in fact better) track record at making RPGs as the "relatively obscure" InXile.

And neither of you have explained how P:E, Torment and W2 can all raise almost as much again from Box sales - while D:OS has none? Even the Double Fine KickStarter raised over $1M alone from its boxed pledge tier. Why is D:OS the odd one out?

If true, then removing the digital tier would result in more people buying the physical tier. AMIRITE?

IMO yes. If the only way of getting the game would be boxed I would pay for boxed. But likely after release as I would need time to accumulate more money. Boxed + shipping etc.

"But likely after release" and that thar is yer problem. If your game relies on your KickStarter being successful, you need to raise as much as you can. People change their minds and their pledge. Some people only want the game, others want a box and are willing to pay for it.

And as the stats show, plenty of other successful KickStarters can raise substantial funds from their boxed copies and physical offerings. If anything, it's D:OS that seems to be the odd one out.

Yeah but 65$ for a boxed version with localized translation does not cut it. People won't be willing to pay $250 for a simple box and even if they do the company won't manage to achieve the quantity needed. Higher price = lower quantity, but the thing is that the quantity was never sufficient in the first place.

Trust me, translating the text on the box isn't hard. Considering the entire manual and everything else needs to be translated anyway for the digital PDF copies. It'd be the same as offering your web page in multiple languages. In fact, they'd already have the text from that to put on the box. Total additional translation cost: $0.

But sure, feel free to dig up other mythical costs that must be hugely expensive and totally make printing on cardboard boxes¹ far too expensive.

¹No really, go to your local printer and find out the cost to print your own custom design on a cardboard box. It really is that fucking simple. And the costs are not so astronomical, even for relatively low quantities. 500+ is sufficient to get considerable discounts on printing.

AND that could mean much more money for developers.

It wouldn't mean that much more - and in fact could mean less. The P:E digital tiers of $20.00, $25.00, $35.00 and $50.00 have 60,048 backers and raise $1,603,320.

Depends. I believe that this cost or time spent on it may be the elephant in the room: "getting Original Sin translated and age-rated in multiple territories prior to release."

Which has to happen for digital copies anyway. I mean, what, are you suggesting they'd only have released the game in English, if only they didn't have pesky boxes to deal with!

Now how much profit they would lose is a completely different story that dependent on the costs. Game companies are worst in reporting so estimating is the only way to go.

I think it's reasonable to assume that:

1. The box tiers are profitable.
2. That in fact, the box tiers make more profit than if the same people had bought a digital only tier.
3. That some people will only pledge if they can get a box and that those people are willing to pay a premium to have a physical box.​

And that raises another issue, which is better:

a) A KickStarter that raises $4M (4x what it asked) minus cost of physicals of $500k, leaving $3.5M to spend on development.

- or -

b) A KickStarter that raises $3M (3x what it asked) with no physical expenses, leaving $3M to spend on development?​

Now consider that people who want physicals have money and are willing to throw it at the company. Now take those people out of the KickStarter, leaving only those who have enough cash to just buy a copy of the game, you know, when they get the money. Which makes for a successful KickStarter?

 

[Sceptic]

Hey look, the steamwhores are using the nostalgia argument and think that collecting stuff is stupid. lol irony.

Around this time I'd probably launch into a long-winded analogy to bookshelves, and the sheer pleasure of browsing your book collection, bringing down a book you haven't read in a couple of decades, flipping through it and remembering how much you liked it, and so on... but I somehow doubt you'll understand.

After all, if it's not in your Steam library, then it sucks.

 

[Excidium]

Hey look, the steamwhores are using the nostalgia argument and think that collecting stuff is stupid. lol irony.

Around this time I'd probably launch into a long-winded analogy to bookshelves, and the sheer pleasure of browsing your book collection, bringing down a book you haven't read in a couple of decades, flipping through it and remembering how much you liked it, and so on... but I somehow doubt you'll understand.

After all, if it's not in your Steam library, then it sucks.

Stupid analogy, videogames are digital format in one way or the other

And I'd prefer physical copies too, if the media was actually useful and not just a prompt to install steam, if the documentation existed and all the crap that comes with it was integrated with the game in some way.

That people pay more for what's essentially cardboard is just too funny, sorry. But hey you got stickers

 

[Metro]

Bingo.

Around this time I'd probably launch into a long-winded analogy to bookshelves, and the sheer pleasure of browsing your book collection, bringing down a book you haven't read in a couple of decades, flipping through it and remembering how much you liked it, and so on... but I somehow doubt you'll understand.

Do you put on your slippers and smoking jacket and curl up with a nice cognac, too?

 

[buzz]

1. Wait until the game is close to that final, FINAL state, with all the content and patches already implemented.
2. Download the gog.com version
3. Burn the setup to a DVD, the extra stuff like artwork and soundtrack to another. Optionally implement auto-run for the setup disk.
4. Buy a jewel case or a DVD case. Print artwork and stick it in there.
5. Get some CD adhesive label or maybe even a printer that can print on CDs directly. Apply on your DVDs.
6. Order a small cardboard box, either printed or blank (and you can stick some adhesive paper on it).
7. Order a custom printed manual from various Internet services. For extra cheapskatism, print the papers yourself and find a store with a comb binding machine to bind it. Optionally, laminate the covers.
There, mission fucking accomplished.

Seriously, this thread is disgusting. It's pretty much one of the reasons why I hate Kickstarter. People have turned it from a community service/crowdsourcing thing into a marketing pitch made by the developers directly to the consumers. And the backer tiers are partly to blame for that. Too many have the assumption that kickstarter is supposed to be based on the "give money -> receive product" dynamic, when in reality it is "give money -> help product get made".
Your incentive for throwing lots of dosh at a campaign shouldn't be a fucking box or a cloth map. Your incentive should be the FUCKING GAME GETTING MADE. You know, that type of game that modern devs and publishers no longer produce or create only extremely castrated versions of.
But hey, yeah, go make that minimum pledge amount just so you get the game, sure. Imagine a W2 or a Broken Age that barely scrapped the funding goal because everyone got the basic digital pack. Or better, imagine the campaign failing and no actual game getting made.

Physical goods are nice and welcome. But not when they're a novelty item that creates huge management and distributing issues. Not when it forces the game developers to use a significant part of the money making physical goods and shipping them all over the place instead of putting that money into the game itself. These companies are still independent companies, working on the peanuts a few tens of thousand people gave them. They don't have massive AAA budgets or the connections of big publishers. So let them work on the game, put that game on a digital, hassle-free platform and support them out of your own goodwill rather than for the physical shit.


Blackthorne of Infamous Quest kinda did it right. The original Kickstarter campaign had physical and big box backer tiers. But he made a separate kickstarter for the hint book. That's the correct way to handle this shit. Rather than hamfisting everything, do several micro-campaigns. Focus first on making the game and getting it in perfect condition. Then make a different campaign for the people who want collector editions, ports and other things like that.

 

[Zorba the Hutt]

Seriously, this thread is disgusting. It's pretty much one of the reasons why I hate Kickstarter. People have turned it from a community service/crowdsourcing thing into a marketing pitch made by the developers directly to the consumers. And the backer tiers are partly to blame for that.

I agree with some of your post, but I think the devs are also dealing with the reality of what money is out there for them. It would be great if millions of people gave $5 each without expecting anything in return but it seems there just isn't enough of that sort of "free funding" for most RPGs. Instead of "hating" kickstarter for this, some have realised that there is also a market out there for collectibles, complete with a secondary market for old game boxes. So why not tap into that? If it costs $50 to produce and deliver a box that you offer for $150 (or $300 for signed) then why not go for it? Looking at some of the kickstarters for collectible figurines etc, it's clear that collectors have a lot of money for things that interest them.

For really small kickstarters I agree that this becomes more trouble than it's worth but nobody is forcing them to offer this stuff. It's up to them whether they appeal to collectors or not. For small projects Blackthorne's approach is indeed probably better.