Divinity: Original Sin Beta Release Thread [GAME RELEASED, GO TO THE NEW THREAD]

[ForkTong]

I checked and indeed, the room where the woman in the bath tub is, is storylocked. We then had a discussion about this type of stuff and we agreed that we should only do it if there is really no other way.

Oh, and Zixzax should appear with the stones as soon as you zap a starstone afaik. Been working on skills and loca and such more than quests/story, so I'm not completely 100% up to date.

 

[SuicideBunny]

I checked and indeed, the room where the woman in the bath tub is, is storylocked. We then had a discussion about this type of stuff and we agreed that we should only do it if there is really no other way.

you still should somewhat explain it in a way that makes sense and the thing is it isn't really the only way to do it here. getting the pyramid first doesn't break stuff since you still can't port to the other before you get it and that bathtub joke is not in any way relevant to the story (unless for some weird reason you reference it constantly from there on out, which would be weird considering that picking up the pyramid isn't even mandatory so far).

 

[victim]

I think your jargon is sheer sophism. Actually, scratch that. It doesn't even rise to that level, its straight up bullshit.

do you have something relevant to say about the actual content of my post or did you just want to throw in some random irrelevant comment about its form?

More sophistry (form/content..really?!) and with even less art.

The only relevant comment anyone can make is that there is no content. You are phrase mongering and hoping that others assume that it has meaning.

I don't know what "atomic interactions" means because it is intentionally vague and nebulous--and, you don't know what it means either. "Emergent gameplay" sounds like a very solid concept but it has no actual "density" (look, a science word out of context that almost makes sense!)

Your framework (such as there even is one) for analysis is so wildly conceptual that it is not possible to produce any legitimate analysis. It seems to boil down to the fact that the player can do things that are not anticipated by the game designers/developers..or, at least, things that are not explicitly anticipated by the game designers. (contrast this with the fact that no matter how "emerrgence" is available, your RPG will never suddenly see your character morph into a dot eating Yellow head and thenceforth become a game of Pac Man)

The issue then turns into a debate about constraints built into a game--or, more loosely after your wont--"degrees of freedom". Perhaps this line of thinking has value--but here it largely serves to layer an objective sheen over what remains a very subjective (not to mention arbitrary and liberally defined) criterion. Certainly when we reach the point where we are invoking true abstractions (which are devoid of content) as defining paramters, we have passed the boundary of preoccupation and entered into Romulan Fetish Territory.

If it sounds like I am saying STFU in so many words, I am. A word count is availabe by request.

 

[ERYFKRAD]

 

[SuicideBunny]

I don't know what "atomic interactions" means because it is intentionally vague and nebulous--and, you don't know what it means either.

i've given examples of what i consider atomic interactions and used slightly different terms to describe them. atomic, as used by me, means the most basic player-perceivable (as opposed to ones in the actual code) interactions between elements (most importantly, but not solely, actors) in the gameworld.

Your framework (such as there even is one) for analysis is so wildly conceptual that it is not possible to produce any legitimate analysis. It seems to boil down to the fact that the player can do things that are not anticipated by the game designers/developers..or, at least, things that are not explicitly anticipated by the game designers.

my framework for analysis of what? i am not analyzing anything in the posts you are referring to, i am stating my displeasure at devs explicitly restricting stuff in original sin that is a result of systems they put into a game in the first place while not giving any reasons for that restriction in the game and at the same time (one of them) saying they aren't doing any restricting to begin with, then i proceed to explain my usage and personal understanding of some terms to somebody who clearly has a different understanding of said terms.

 

[Jaesun]

Master of Arcanum.

 

[Hassat Hunter]

I still have to disagree with the Bunny in regards to the door.

The pyramid is a PUZZLE. A very simple one at that, but that some people wonder and you need to use your brain a little does qualify it. Just unlocking or destroying the door circumventing the puzzle is weakening it.
What is wrong with having a puzzle? It's not the first, nor will it be the last in the game. Should all puzzle-locked doors be circumvented because someone is just annoyed a door might be locked till you get a certain item/lever combination right?

 

[garren]

wat

 

[SuicideBunny]

The pyramid is a PUZZLE. A very simple one at that, but that some people wonder and you need to use your brain a little does qualify it. Just unlocking or destroying the door circumventing the puzzle is weakening it.
What is wrong with having a puzzle? It's not the first, nor will it be the last in the game. Should all puzzle-locked doors be circumvented because someone is just annoyed a door might be locked till you get a certain item/lever combination right?

le fuck?
the thing that is wrong with it is that it's a shitty puzzle because it does not allow any solutions which seem valid until you arrive at a point in the story where the solution is literally handed to you, at which point solving it becomes trite. so no, you don't have to use your brain a little or at all. you would have to use your brain if the door was breakable, because merely destroying it might cause vandalism trigger with the room's occupant so you would in turn have to use some means of circumventing that, like setting door on fire or using summon to destroy it.
it's a shitty puzzle because it blocks those other solutions that seem valid solely so the game can deliver some text about source hunters barging into rooms when their occupants are naked. it's a shitty puzzle because it breaks a bit of world logic as it has been established to that point (shitty frail looking wooden doors are kinda easily breakable, sturdy looking doors, especially large, stone, or metal ones, are kinda friggin hard to break down). there is nothing wrong with having a puzzle as long as it's not obsolete shit. there is nothing wrong with having proper puzzles, but when you set them up in a way that would allow the player to circumvent them through your other mechanics, explicitly blocking the circumvention is shitty design. set them up differently or don't block the circumvention.

 

[Hassat Hunter]

To you, to me, to anyone with 2 braincells... but there are enough Skyrim-people who are too handholded not to take 2+2=use the damn pyramid.
(which in many cases will be before you even reach said door)
If it's so easy for you... why do you object to it, opening the door, and making the solution trivial?

Using summons to destroy a door without AI interference is a bug (they have confirmed so already) so don't expect to keep utilising that in the future...

 

[SuicideBunny]

the thing i am objecting to is the "impossible to solve" that comes before "trivial to solve" and which can last for an eternity if, like me, you like to shit on the main plot and just go frolicking and exploring the world.

 

[Infinitron]

Hassat Hunter:

Chris Avellone from Obsidian has said in the past that not being able to kill anybody you want in an RPG (so-called "invincibility flags") is bad design. Do you agree with this?

If so, why is it bad for NPCs to be invincible but okay for wooden doors to be invincible?

 

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, but that's not really the point of Original Sin. While it may support it; why should the game just hand you everyting if you do it like that? That's kind of the point of just mucking about, no? Trying to game the game... instead of expecting the gamemakers to hand you everything on a silver platter?

I just really don't see the point of making the game's story less interesting and being able to be circumvented just cause someone doesn't want to do the plot. You don't want to? Okay... but don't expect to still reap the benefits from it.

EDIT:
Infinitron: Depends. They may say it, but do you honestly believe yourself you can kill everyone in PoE and still finish the plotline? Seems unlikely no. And some games may try solutions to solve this, like the no-weapon zones in Invisible Wars, which are just even worse than the problem in the first place!
Sometimes the good of the game needs to trump 'realism' or 'wants' of gamers, just to make the game better. I expect most here to understand that, no?

 

[Infinitron]

Yeah, but that's not really the point of Original Sin.

On the contrary, it is even MORE the point in Original Sin than it is in "Black Isle-style" RPGs, which have always had a more limited world interaction model. You couldn't blow open any doors with fireballs in Baldur's Gate - it avoided these consistency problems via abstraction.

While it may support it; why should the game just hand you everyting if you do it like that?

If it doesn't want to hand you something, it shouldn't put that something behind a wooden door!

I just really don't see the point of making the game's story less interesting and being able to be circumvented just cause someone doesn't want to do the plot.

So much decline

 

[Hassat Hunter]

If stories in games are decline... I'm probably at the wrong forum... sorry about that. If it's just about fucking about and getting everything handed to you... I wonder why Oblivion and Skyrim aren't more revered here than loathed...
And here I thought Planescape: Torment was much loved for it's story...

 

[Athelas]

If stories in games are decline... I'm probably at the wrong forum... sorry about that. If it's just about fucking about and getting everything handed to you... I wonder why Oblivion and Skyrim aren't more revered here than loathed...
And here I thought Planescape: Torment was much loved for it's story...

More freedom/free-form mechanics can improve storytelling (i.e. being able to forge your own meaningful path). It's annoying when fictional characters do something illogical for the sake of advancing the plot, why should that be different for video game stories?

 

[Infinitron]

I wonder why Oblivion and Skyrim aren't more revered here than loathed...

Well, Bethesda does get some props on the Codex for continuing to embrace non-linearity in an age where the "cinematic cutscene corridor" school of game design ruled supreme. We dislike them because they do it in the most hamfisted, dumbed down and poorly written way possible. And of course, Fallout: New Vegas, which addresses those issues, is adored by many.

And here I thought Planescape: Torment was much loved for it's story...

Like I said, PS:T was an RPG in the Black Isle tradition, which meant it had a limited world interaction model, thus avoiding these sorts of consistency issues. It was a game where almost every action you performed beyond the pure basics was implemented via scripted dialogue trees.

 

[Hassat Hunter]

Well, yeah, I wouldn't want it to be a cinamatic RPG like Mass Effect... old school ftw.

But I suppose I am more in league with Black Isle/old BioWare type games than with 'just do whatever you want, for no reason, cause this game really has no point'. So a functional storyline. And if that somewhat has to hamper the freestyle, so be it.
Apparently, I am the sole thinker like that on this topic it seems.

Killing all is amiable, but, well... even Baldur's Gate will insta-kill you if you killed critical NPC's. I know the best how it was with The Nameless Mod, killing everyone was accounted for, but boy, did it create a LOT of bugs and where a lot of instances it wasn't taken into account (and with full VO that's harder to correct than it would be here). Even after the 4 patches my hotfix still fixes 2 dozen cases of it not being correctly detected questwise. And what did it all add? Not very much.
I suppose it's nice for a gamer to have, but timewise implenting it and added worth to the game, I don't see it being worth it.
Now too many people on Larian's forum mention issues with stuff breaking if NPC's die... or how easy and unpunished it is to murder the entire marketplace, something I've noticed too, and that literally gives 10.000+ gold in items, and pretty much breaks any balance.

I'll see how they will fix that one. Or maybe they will just let it slip and balance can go out the window for all they care?
So many added issues. And for what?

 

[Athelas]

PS:T could have actually accomodated killing everyone, since it had a Speak-with-Dead ability that they could have used to let you communicate with any plot-important NPC's you might have killed.

 

[SuicideBunny]

So a functional storyline. And if that somewhat has to hamper the freestyle, so be it.

if a superfluous naked-lady related joke (which can be set-up easily so that you do not have to restrict anything) constitutes such an important part of the story for you that you think it is worth any gameplay sacrifice, then this really might not be the place for you. i recommend rps, they tend to focus heavily on the narrative and shit all over gameplay as well.

 

[Hassat Hunter]

More the 'you have to use your nogging to get the second teleporter' than the joke, really.
But I suppose having to use brains is too much, when you can just use brute force right... the ways RPGs are meant to be played *vomits*

EDIT:
And now I remember getting insta-killed with dialogue in PS:T attacking one certain NPC.

 

[Infinitron]

But I suppose I am more in league with Black Isle/old BioWare type games than with 'just do whatever you want, for no reason, cause this game really has no point'. So a functional storyline. And if that somewhat has to hamper the freestyle, so be it.

Sure, and that's all right. Those games imposed a lot of limitations on you to achieve that, though. As somebody who was part of the Ultima fandom in the 90s, I know plenty of people who saw those limitations as deal-breakers. Some of them stopped playing RPGs entirely because they just couldn't see games where all you did was "uncover pretty backgrounds, fight stuff and click on dialogue options" as true RPGs.

I disagree with that, but I can understand where they were coming from.

 

[SuicideBunny]

More the 'you have to use your nogging to get the second teleporter' than the joke, really.

yet having the second pyramid on some raised terrain outside max telekinesis range as i posted before doesn't work for you despite being similar (as in the same, only harder because you'd have to throw one of them down afterwards or dropped the first one on the ground before you use it) from a puzzle perspective but without any restrictions on actions? the room isn't set up in a way that cannot be entered for the sake of the pyramid, it's set up in that way so that the naked lady in the bathtub can drop her text when you port in.

 

[Hassat Hunter]

That would be fine with me yes... I never said otherwise.
And not really harder, you could just teleport out of there without using the pyramids too

EDIT:
So to clarfiy, my complaint is mostly about the 'puzzle' (weak as it is, but then again, it's an introductionairy one) being gone if other methods are allowed than I care about the joke.
I would be fine if they took the entire outside door out, making it just a part of Cecil's house... and then making it more complex for the player to get out again.
That would also take the entire wooden door argument away, well, except for the one in Cecil's house leading to the pyramids location...

 

[SuicideBunny]

ah, yeah, i forgot about the rune.