Disciples 2: Rise of the Elves

[the_shadow]

I've spent a bit of time on Disciples 2: RotE and completed the Dwarf campaign on Normal Difficulty, only struggling with the last two maps. I've started Legions of the Damned on the hardest difficulty, and it's quite a difference. First the AI produces units at a mind-boggling rate, particularly rod planters, to the point I'm spending half my time removing enemy rods near my capital. Secondly, all enemy stacks get a passive XP gain. This means the AI has hordes of units that progressively level up without having to fight neutrals.

The first map (Broken Seal) was manageable. I didn't confront the AI stacks in open combat, and merely held a city on the middle island until Gymner Cloudkeeper walked by, at which point I roasted him with two Ignis Carn and finished him off with my hero.

The second and third maps were pretty easy. Uther has a powerful ranged paralyze/fire attack, and better yet you can *clone* him if you use Dopplegangers in combat.

The fourth map (Salty Dungeon) was hell on earth, and came down to a war of attrition. Basically I could only afford the coins and mana to level up my main hero's stack by keeping them near my capital and poaching neutrals and AI stacks that strayed too close by. At around turn 120 I rushed to the demon gate, capturing each city on the way to heal up. Thanks to the passive XP gain on enemy AI I was facing stacks of Lvl 8 Sons of Ymir with 700 hp. Yikes/

Now I'm on the fifth map (Darkness and Light) and am getting bombarded with rod planters from both the Empire and Dwarves. I can beat the garrisons in each of the 3 target cities if I rush them, but holding on 3 is another problem. Has anyone ever completed this Saga on the hardest difficulty, and what strategies did you use?

 

[Darth Roxor]

Secondly, all enemy stacks get a passive XP gain.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true.

As for rod planters, you should either stomp them with summons (unless they're d0rfs cuz d0rf champ can easily kill level 2 summons) or keep a warrior hero with a bunch of units close to the enemy capital to kill any and all planters that go out of it. Although in my experience you can usually just ignore them once you're far enough into a mission that you don't need resources much anymore.

 

[the_shadow]

Secondly, all enemy stacks get a passive XP gain.

I'm pretty sure this isn't true.

It is on the hardest mode. Neutral stacks don't gain passive XP, but the AI does.

As for rod planters, you should either stomp them with summons (unless they're d0rfs cuz d0rf champ can easily kill level 2 summons) or keep a warrior hero with a bunch of units close to the enemy capital to kill any and all planters that go out of it. Although in my experience you can usually just ignore them once you're far enough into a mission that you don't need resources much anymore.

In theory that makes sense, but on the hardest difficulty they send out so many rod planters, spies and high level stacks, and you can't be everywhere at once.

 

[Goral]

Winning in Disciples 2 even on hardest difficulty is very simple - just find out where cities are (gold is the most important resource) and conquer them ASAP ignoring everything else. Also, defence is the most important stat so if you're taking items with you for the next mission make sure it's something improving your defence (BTW, it's often advantageous to defend during fights). Also, it's very important to max out your hero in each mission (there are missions where you need to complete a task as early as possible and can't waste time but you can easily make up for it in the next missions (mainly by attacking the capital - every race has an option to paralyse either by minions or by artefacts). Choosing the right minions is also important, less is better most of the time but at the beginning you can sometimes level up after the first fight so it's better to take as many of them as you can. Depending on your character sometimes it's advantageous to buy 3 melee minions as cannon fodder (or archers or wizards who are often attacked if they're the weakest) just to survive first fights and level up more precious ones. Legions of the damned have Gargoyles who have huge defence and are definitely worth taking.

 

[Darth Roxor]

Also, defence is the most important stat so if you're taking items with you for the next mission make sure it's something improving your defence (BTW, it's often advantageous to defend during fights).

Strongly disagreed. In my memory, by far the most important items to transfer are initiative banners and artifacts that add debuffs to attacks, like paralyze. The paralysis artifact might perhaps be the most important item in the game, in fact, because it lets all races knock out enemy capitals, while the only ones who can do it reliably without it are IIRC the undead (cuz phantom warriors and shades have paralyze too, not to mention turbopoison from deaths against the capital guardians and their 90% damage reduction).

 

[Goral]

I was talking about stats and defence IS the most important stat (but it's true that paralyse/petrify artefacts are OP and I've talked about it in my post). Defence is way more important than initiative most of the time, only in a couple of fights (where you're facing undead or legions of the damned who can paralyse/petrify you) higher initiative might be needed but you can get +50% initiative during level up (first strike "perk") + permanent +10% initiative thanks to a potion + you can use initiative potions.

+10% from a banner (+15% at most since there are no +20% initiative banners IIRC) doesn't make such a difference like +10% defence (+20% if you have banner of fortitude) especially since there are other artefacts which increase your defence and you can get 75% or more defence from artefacts alone. With defence as high as 75% (in the Darkness and Light missions my heroes have at least 80% defence from the start) you can win many, many fights with your hero alone (even without paralysing artefacts) without the need to heal. You can conquer city after city and the only problem is defeating the main boss who is immune to mind attacks.

the only ones who can do it reliably without it are IIRC the undead

Nope, Legions of the Damned have minions like that too although they petrify (so the source is earth not mind which sometimes is more advantageous). But yeah, poison is very effective against capital guardians since they have 90% defence so your attacks don't make much damage even if you max your attack (BTW, use auto attack for this fight once only guardian remains, it's pointless to do it manually).

the_shadow
About potions that permanently increase your stats, it's better to use them as late as possible unless it's iron skin (+10% defence) or +10% initiative. Also, there's an exploit in Disciples where you can steal all valuable items from shops by using your thief and save scumming but it's really not necessary since missions in campaign are rather easy. The really hard ones are fan made.

 

[Darth Roxor]

+10% from a banner (+15% at most since there are no +20% initiative banners IIRC) doesn't make such a difference like +10% defence (+20% if you have banner of fortitude) especially since there are other artefacts which increase your defence and you can get 75% or more defence from artefacts alone.

There is a +20% initiative banner, but IIRC it's super rare and might be available only in one campaign.

Still, IMO the 15% init increase is hella good, because with that all your 50+ initiative guys *always* act first before their enemy counterparts, which is crazy advantageous e.g. when playing undead (muh phantom warriors). Also, the 50 init dudes can also get to act before enemy archers with it, which can be extra handy against mobs with imperial assassins cuz they are often placed in the front in AI armies (and they are also massive sons of bitches). The defence banner I only pick for d0rfs, since their natural low init makes the init banner pointless, while the armour boost couple with higher hp lets them shrug off most of the enemy first strikes.

 

[Goral]

There is a +20% initiative banner, but IIRC it's super rare

I've checked and there isn't.

Still, IMO the 15% init increase is hella good, because with that all your 50+ initiative guys *always* act first before their enemy counterparts, which is crazy advantageous e.g. when playing undead (muh phantom warriors).

In a campaign, against computer, defence is definitely more important because it takes quite a few turns to get phantom warriors or shades and even if you would start with 5 ghosts they would be easily destroyed by your opponents due to their super low initiative (+15% wouldn't change a thing). So what's the point of taking with you banner of celerity when you won't be able to use it until late turns once you will have developed minions? Also, there are many orcs on every map who are heavy hitters and can one shot most of your minions unless you have good defence. They are worth fighting with though since they bring massive amounts of XP (and often treasures).

 

[Darth Roxor]

I've checked and there isn't.

It might be in the expansion campaigns.

So what's the point of taking with you banner of celerity when you won't be able to use it until late turns once you will have developed minions?

Also, it's not only useful for fully developed dudes. Like I said above, having guaranteed first strikes that allow you to eliminate enemy dudes before they get to act (and that's already possible with two tier 2 fighters, like zerks/zombies, + low level fighter hero) is nothing to scoff at, and odds are it might just as well save you from more damage than an armour banner would. If you kill a tier 3 fighter thanks to higher init, you 'evade' 75 damage by stopping him from attacking altogether. If you get hit by him when you have a 20% armour banner, you only evade 15.

Also2, I think the relative usefulness of the armour banner might vary depending on what lord you play. Since I almost always go with warrior lord for the fast healing each turn, getting clobbered a bit more in fights doesn't bother me as much as long as units survive.

 

[Goral]

With no artefacts and banners only you might be right, although I'm not sure. It would depend on what minions you would have and what opponents would have. Tier 3 minions have at least 200 HP and they're not easy to kill and during that time other opponents still attack you.

I'm certain though that in the long run defence is the most important stat, especially later when you can have 50% or more defence. I did some tests some time ago and with high defence I could take over cities the quickest (that 10-20% defence from banners made a huge difference). Almost always I've played as a mage but during first mission I created another leader who wasn't a wizard - wizards suck and have useless abilities (orbs I think which are utterly useless) and are slow (LOD wizard is the exception since it can fly). Wizards are useful for scrolls only but you can always recruit one just for that for 500 gold.

the_shadow
BTW, there is also another trick I've come up with - once you have many move points it's often advantageous to remove boots (and sometimes to change boots from those giving +60% move points to +40% or +20%) because each fight costs half of your move points so if you have 100 MP you will have 50 MP after first fight (assuming they're next to you) and no MP after the next, but if you would change boots/remove them you will lose less MP and might be able to attack more enemies in one turn.

 

[catfood]

This game was more fun for me when using the BORNTORUN cheat which replenishes movement points. It made chasing down those annoying rod planters a lot easier.

 

[RoBoBOBR]

the only ones who can do it reliably without it are IIRC the undead

nah man, every race can pop capitals:
- undead - lock a ghost on lvl 1, it'll get levels quick and gain enough HP and THC so that you can get it to 100% THC with potions and it can survive the cap-guard attack once (add some DEF potions if need be). Deaths and paralyzing skellies defo help do it quicker, but basically starting from map 3 (or maybe even 2, i forgot) undead can conquer capitals.
- inferno lads - IMO the worst capital busters from the original 4, you gotta get the petrifying caster (incubus) to 100% THC, which takes a lot of resources. IIRC polymorph is not guaranteed vs cap-guard, it can reclaim its original form before attacking. OTOH they get Uther very early in campaign and that boy can stomp capitals quite easy (some reloads may be required)
- gnomes - couple of Sons of Ymir, plus gnome DEF magics - and you just win the damage race (Sons have a nasty frostbite that ignores armor)
- hoomans - couple of heal-all units plus some DEF spells, outlast.
- elves - same, couple of Sylphs (they may need additional levels or DEF potions) and DEF buffs. Doesn't really go well with elven archer focus tho.

as for the rodders - they are annoying, yes, but you don't really need your main guy to stomp them, just put a melee/archer hero in every city you capture, staff them with basic units and only get them out to kill another rodder.