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Did Bethesda screw up with level scaling or is it necessary?

JarlFrank

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This. And if you can't envision or implement a character growth system that doesn't involve bloat, you'll be better off ditching character growth altogether - just make a build and roll with it, it will still be an RPG as it will still have build limiting what you can and cannot do.

Also this.

Being able to best all the challenges through repeated application of grind is bad and renders all the challenges void.
Being able to withstand something that, by all logic, should turn your character into an unrecognizable smear on the landscape is bad.
Inevitable loot and threat inflation highly vertical development leads to is bad.
Highly vertical development in itself is uninteresting.

I mostly agree with you, but your second point (being able to withstand something that should turn you into a smear on the landscape) is contestable, in a way. Not that I approve of being able to take 10 hits from a dragon without being reduced to a bloody pulp, but there should be ways to deal even with the hardest shit the game throws at you - just that dealing with it shouldn't be straightforward or easy.
Wanna fight a dragon? You need specialized equipment (nets to tie his wings or something, a LOT of preparation by taking potions and charms and spells that protect against fire, ranged and reach weapons because getting close enough for the dragon to just EAT YOU is a bad idea, etc etc). Wanna fight a giant? You need to use the right tactics (fuck up his feet and legs until he can't stand anymore, preferably with a ranged weapon, try flanking or coming from behind or circling around him or even climb on him to reach his vitals). That would be fun. A LOT of fun. And more challenging, and definitely more special and memorable than just hitting the thing until it falls over and dies.

It would actually make the encounter feel like something that was a challenge, because you have to use special tactics. Sure, it takes much more effort to design it like this, you need to script enemy reactions like giants falling if they take enough damage to the legs or dragons losing the ability to fly when attacked with big nets. It's much easier to go the "lol hit it till its dead lol" route.

But this is why Dark Souls bosses are so memorable. They have their own strengths and weaknesses and you beat them by learning about these and exploiting them.
 

Greatness

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Level scaling is just laziness. Why spend resources fine-tuning your gameworld for a genuinely hand-crafted experience when you can just auto-level everything and forget about it.

Too bad M&MX did so poorly. It was refreshing to have an open-world that wasn't dumbed down. It had been too long since I actually had to avoid difficult areas/encounters and getting my ass kicked felt so good.
 

sser

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Within my first twenty minutes playing Skyrim I:

Rode a wagon full of prisoners.
Escaped the chopping block.
Killed a dragon.


One of these things is not like the other...
 

Luckra

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Level scaling is lazy but can be done right. Just having a kind of min/max like in Dragon Age: Origins is a good start compared to the pure scaling Bethesda did on Oblivion or Fallout. IMO the perfect level scaling is not taking into account levels and stats but modifying the gameplay by adding less or more enemies kind of like Baldur's Gate did or tune the enemies so that they use abilities less or more powerful (or even unique ones at higher levels).

Analogy time: the scaling of Bethesda is like adding more HP to the enemies in a FPS resulting in bullet spongy wankers (I'm looking at you Borderlands) where instead you want more enemies using more advanced techniques like flanking (like FEAR).
 

imweasel

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Level scaling is never good IMHO. If you must use some type of scaling then it should be encounter scaling.

Level scaling is not Skyrim's biggest problem anyway, it is the shitty copy-pasted filler content which makes up 90% of the game. You don't work to conquer an ultimate goal, you just herpa derp around doing pointless banal bullshit for absolutely no reason at all. That probably wouldn't be so bad if the game actually some reactivity, but it doesn't. The gameworld feels empty and lifeless.
 

Metro

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Level scaling is terrible. There are ways to design a game that allow you to survive in high level areas based on skill or meta-gaming like Dark Souls.
 

Slow James

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IMO the best solution to open-world design is not level-scaling but limited character growth. It should be about gaining flexibility in how you approach the encounters, not hp and dps bloat. The same applies to enemies - different types should require different tactics to kill, not just have higher numbers.

Agreed. An interesting system that come to mind are Betrayal at Antara, which let you level up by doing in a manner similar to TES games but only let you reach a certain level within a certain area. This also was complimented by their magic system, which allowed you to unlock different spell combinations only when the skill level became high enough.

I'd like to see this applied to more games, as it makes sense from a realism stand point, as humans don't progress in a linear fashion, but rather have peaks and plateaus.
 

Invictus

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Sorry guys but level scaling is a necesary evil for mainstream open world games, unless you develop some sort of Block to your open world game, thus invalidating the whole open world idea. I happen to like Skyrim for exactly what it is, a pushover hiking simulator with beautiful mods.
I ve tried Réquiem and it is fun but the system was never balanced for static world so it is never as good as a game designed from the ground up for that like Morrowind.
If there could be a good in between measure like área based level scaling, sort of like Morrowind as some of the others have pointed out but it could adjust also to your level, for example an área with rats would always have rats(instead of glass armored bandits) but depending on your level the rats could also spawn a couple of higher level "elder" rat or whatever to Spice things up a little
To be honest the best open world RPG for me would also be my first; Darklands and Daggerfall but both of those games definetly needed some commitment to level up and get better gear before knocking on some Raubritter's castle...lets face it that the current console based gaming landscape is not going to be very interested in that sort of thing
 

A user named cat

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While not a PC game or RPG, a strategy gem for Playstation 1 called Vandal Hearts tackled level scaling in a way I quite liked. While the regular story battles had enemies at fixed levels, if you wanted to grind or power level, you had to go through trial battles on the side against level scaled enemies that became increasingly difficult.

 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

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Level scaling is a LAZY development fix for poor development decisions. Nothing more.

Insane HP and MP bloat in leveling systems, bad leveling systems in general, a lack of enemy variety, poor level and area design, poor combat design. All of these can be "fixed" by the great band-aid that is level scaling. Now we don't have to worry about designing areas in such a way that the player can pick up auditory and visual clues that tell them how dangerous it is. Now we don't have to come up with enemy designs for low/mid/high levels because all of them can be used from the start. Now we don't have to worry about newbies quitting because there is no awesome button because combat is winnable - every. time.

All of it is unnecessary if the developer puts a little effort into his design. Again, give the player clues, have enemy stats not vary so much based on level so that the player can get a good idea of the strength of their opponent based on their enemy type. If there is a variation from the norm in a particular enemy type, show the player visually somehow. Have it kill a few higher level enemies or let the player hear the sounds of combat, only to find an entire squad of soldiers wiped out by said variant NPC. Maybe instead of every character you meet looking like a full plated baddass from the beginning, most fighters could have crappy armor and weapons so that the player can visually recognize when there is a threat far above his level? Maybe guys with muscles and scars should actually put up more of a fight that the old beggar you insta-gibbed at the beginning of the game because you confused the dialog and attack buttons? Maybe, just maybe, the player should required to be smart enough to know that since taking down a lightly armored bandit was difficult at their level, going up against Sauron-Vader-Godzilla might not be such a good idea yet? Maybe instead of shoving so many crap combat encounters, you could design each one? Maybe devs should have their quest writing be less "SAVE THE WORLD NOW OMG THE END IS SO CLOSE" in order to encourage exploration and retreat from difficult battles (see Daggerfall or Morrowind for more on this)? AND MAYBE, JUST MAYBE!!!!!!, developers should consider NOT PUTTING FREAKING DRAGONS UP AGAINST LEVEL 1 PLAYERS! I MEAN, IS THIS ROCKET SCIENCE TO YOU OR WHAT?!
:M

Level scaling is ruining our games. It makes each battle feel like a meaningless cookie cutter experience because it is one. Because the developer realized he didn't actually have to put any thought into it. And judging by how many people bought Skyrim, he was right.
 

Norfleet

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Agreed. It's also why I stopped playing MMOs. I can somewhat accept it in Hack&Slash games but they really are just made for that purpose. DPS and HP bloat is so damn stupid in cRPGs.
When he said in *ANY* game, he probably meant in *ANY* game, including MMOs. DPS and HP bloat are NOT a necessary component of any game, MMO or not. There really isn't any reason why character advancement needs to mean bigger numbers all around, which essentially translates into no advancement.
 
Unwanted

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Bethesda's target audience is the general console public, so no, they did not screw up. They will continue to use a system that those consumers are familiar with. There is no reason at all for them to do anything differently. It sells perfectly fine the way is it.

You know what you are talking about. Have you ever played a console RPG? It was the PC "Legends" that took thier franchises to consoles and made them insultingly retarded: everything by Bioware, Bioshock, Deus Ex: Invisible War, Molyneux and so on and fucking on.
Before that time the consoles had a golden age of their very own, and one modern game representing that age is Dark Souls.
Dark Souls has very good RPG systems. Better than the majority of cRPGs. Skyrim at heart is a cRPG. Dark Souls a console one. Conclusion? You're a faggot. running your mouth as usual.
I don't know about you, but I have never played a console-born RPG with level scaling, especially not from the 90's. Dark Souls is undoubtedly a console RPG of the 90's in design. King's Field, Castlevania: Symphony of the Night, a bit of Final Fantasy etc.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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but I have never played a console-born RPG with level scaling, especially not from the 90's.

There is one: Final Fantasy 8. But the enemies levels scaled up, not down. So they became more powerful to match your level. Still shitty design though. As Draq said, the problem is in the player's leveling systems. Namely the xp reward systems. Stop offering the player the option to grind, RPG devs. Learn from Looking Glass.
 

SausageInYourFace

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While not a PC game or RPG, a strategy gem for Playstation 1 called Vandal Hearts tackled level scaling in a way I quite liked. While the regular story battles had enemies at fixed levels, if you wanted to grind or power level, you had to go through trial battles on the side against level scaled enemies that became increasingly difficult.

Vandal Hearts was a really great little game but I don't really understand what you mean with 'trial battles on the side'. As I remember it, the game was completely linear with no optional battles.
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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Bethesda's target audience is the general console public, so no, they did not screw up. They will continue to use a system that those consumers are familiar with. There is no reason at all for them to do anything differently. It sells perfectly fine the way is it.

What I'm saying is, ditch the retarded "Masterrace" mentality. Let us have a look at the tastes of this masterrace, shall we? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games
Such divine tastes, oh masterrace.
Truth is there is hardcore gamers, where this is a passion for us (and the truly passionate play on all platforms), and then there is everyone else who stands in our way, shoving popamole down our throats.
 

Sykar

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When he said in *ANY* game, he probably meant in *ANY* game, including MMOs. DPS and HP bloat are NOT a necessary component of any game, MMO or not. There really isn't any reason why character advancement needs to mean bigger numbers all around, which essentially translates into no advancement.

Read my post again.
 

Perkel

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Limited XP gain and chokepoints between chapters in a TES game? Doesn't compute.

Not choke points but areas designed to be handled at better level. And it doesn't need to be via area design.


Look at requiem. It delevels everything and sets some standards so if you want to explore dwevemer ruins you will always need some big preparations and no shitty guy can do it without problems. Vampire lair ? Better stock up best potions and equipment.

Which can be translated this way:

Main roads - mostly safe
areas near main roads - mostly low level stuff
areas near side roads - medium level stuff
areas not near any road or hidden - high level stuff.

This way you have logical world and if you want challange and better treasure you need to up your game and go to some medium or high level area.
 

Metro

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Open-world simply means you can go (most) everywhere immediately not that you can thrive (kill stuffies) everywhere immediately.
 

Karwelas

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Main roads - mostly safe
areas near main roads - mostly low level stuff
areas near side roads - medium level stuff
areas not near any road or hidden - high level stuff.

There is even better system. Based on lore and make books, documents and rumors useful. If you read about 'Fortress of Doom and Faggots' in some book you rather shouldn't go there on 1 level, but if you want... why anyone should stop you? Gothic 1 and 2 do this right. Some characters will warn you about dangerous places around, but no one stop you if you want go there. Fuck - if you have enough luck (or you are mad enough) you can try go in there, get some high level shit to sell or for later. You can even fight with monsters there becouse if you mastered the fight system you have chance (very little) to kill them. Even if it take around 30 minutes to kill one of them.

Level scaling is worst system that I can think about. In almost game there should be EXP/level limit that will stop player from become the God himself and kill everything on his way. Without challange there is no fun. Without fun there is no point for playing.
 
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Dark Souls has very good RPG systems. Better than the majority of cRPGs.

Wut?

I like the Souls games a lot, but their "role-playing" systems are far from great. From the "Choices and Consequences" school of role-playing, they're downright awful. And judging solely from the character systems...they're okay, nothing more.

Within the character systems, there aren't a lot of unique character builds unless one is participating in some sort of community-agreed level cap; every character's optimal outcome will be some SL800+ Ninja Cartographer. Save a agreed upon Soul Level meta, the only thing holding players back from raising an ubermensch is their patience at grinding infinitely respawning enemies for souls to level with (I would have love to say Dark Souls 2 differed, at least for the first X hours, from the previous games but From had to CASUL it up to eleven and give players an easy way around finite respawns with the upcoming patch).

The highlight of the Souls series character systems is that power progression is limited (mostly due to how much of the statistical progression in damage/defense is offloaded to the weapon/armor upgrade systems), with average characters only increasing their damage output threefold or fourfold (again, much of that due to taking weapons fully down their respective upgrade paths; properly geared SL1 characters can do comparable damage to SL120s, save for kookiness like Darkmoon Blade, Hornet Ring, Red Tearstone Ring, and Power Within shenanigans). This is only possible because the action element is able to step in and make up the difference, providing he challenge and decision making expected from a difficult game (and even then, Souls games aren't teriblt deep nor complex; really, they aren't systems-driven as much as they are content-driven).

It's a spot wherein the series could stand to improve, deepening the character systems, making them more complex, and allowing for more meaningful differentiation without the need for a PvP meta cap to do the work. As it stands, DeS/DkS1/DkS2 character systems are certainly serviceable (the Souls games are still pretty good fun), but far inferior to average cRPG fare (most cRPGs are systems-driven with poor content, while the Souls series tend to be a bit different, being content-driven with adequate systems).
 

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