Dev Log #56: Experimental Branch with Version 1.0.3.13

[Sykar]

Monster density needs to be fixed first. This stupidly high amount of enemies in small spaces makes it impossible for sneaky builds to function properly.

 

[Lhynn]

lukaszek actually sykar is right. monster density has increased by a lot. Especially early game stealthing is p. hard. You have to actually wait and in some cases it is downright impossible to progress with stealth alone.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Lhynn]

ive made a point of finishing game with stealth alone. Only place I had problem was rat cave in DP and as someone already mentioned I could have bypassed that with rathound king regalia.

I assume that if you had problems it was due to not stacking movement speed. Ive played last a bit over 6m ago so unless more mob were added since then my experience is valid.

To rephrase: due to mob density some areas are harder but none were impossible. Tackling density will lower difficulty.

Again, what part of increased mob density after the patch dont you get?

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Lhynn]

Read the thread title.

 

[Lhynn]

Tygrende not only are you wrong in your analysis of infused leather armor and its impact on the character.
You are also missing the fact that unarmed damage just got that much lower thanks to lower quality and diminishing returns on the only high end material that could be used to make them.

The changes so far since i beat the game have basically been: Less AP per Dex, taste for blood nerf, cheap shot nerf, cheap shot nerf, infused siphoner tabi nerf, infused rathound leather nerf, powerfist nerf, buff to pretty much everything else, that you have to actually face in the game.

 

[Sykar]

ive made a point of finishing game with stealth alone. Only place I had problem was rat cave in DP and as someone already mentioned I could have bypassed that with rathound king regalia.

I assume that if you had problems it was due to not stacking movement speed. Ive played last a bit over 6m ago so unless more mob were added since then my experience is valid.

To rephrase: due to mob density some areas are harder but none were impossible. Tackling density will lower difficulty.

Just so we are clear, you are also playing on Dominating, right?
With that out of the way, I do have Interloper and Ninja Tabi so there is not really much else I can do about sneaking speed. The part where I am stuck at the moment is getting through Depot A. Specifically the gate on the map with the two plasma turrets and an ungodly amount of mutated dogs. Earlier I could kill them one by one or ignore them or on a lucky day sneak past. Now? No idea. They detect you very fast when you try to sneak past them in close proximity, there are like twice as many now compared to Hard both mutants and dogs so sneaking past them is basically like playing lotto.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Sykar]

Just so we are clear, you are also playing on Dominating, right?

No, was not aware it adds more enemies. I assume it does make sneaking harder through that 30% skill diff

With that out of the way, I do have Interloper and Ninja Tabi so there is not really much else I can do about sneaking speed.

rathound king regalia before you get infused hopper armor

The part where I am stuck at the moment is getting through Depot A. Specifically the gate on the map with the two plasma turrets and an ungodly amount of mutated dogs.

sneaking is hard early game and you are not supposed to go through that path. Different one will allow you to get on the other side of the fence.

there are like twice as many now compared to Hard both mutants and dogs so sneaking past them is basically like playing lotto.

This is interesting. That being said mutated dogs were always covering large distance with their random walk and with bad luck it could result in their grouping. Might not be the case if indeed groups are larger.

Earlier I could kill them one by one

One by one as in killing one before another gets to you? Its quite an accomplishment as with dogs in that gate you get always agro of every critter on the map and they have nice movement pool.

1.) You cannot get either Infused or Rathound before you finish Depot A and my build has mechanics and electronics only.
2.) You could sneak through that map previously. Now it is basically impossible.
3.) You kill them one by one by isolating them and then using quiet attacks like Thought Control PSI (sans Frighten) or with a silenced weapon or luring them into a room which you can lock the door behind them.

I did realize that if I had pumped Hacking to 55 instead of 50 I could have hacked the console which powers down the turrets for the room which has the key card to the last gate before you get the drill parts so I have to replay an hour again.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[Sykar]

Well I made it now. If you can power down the turrets you can sneak through the depot and get the card for the last big gate which is on a shelf behind the double plasma turrets and 2 sentry bots.

 

[Tygrende]

Tygrende not only are you wrong in your analysis of infused leather armor and its impact on the character.

What's wrong with it?

You are also missing the fact that unarmed damage just got that much lower thanks to lower quality and diminishing returns on the only high end material that could be used to make them.

Damage on high-end infused leather gloves was inflated to begin with, it was pretty much the only weapon in the entire game that could reach 200 quality. It also made metal gloves completly not worth it, save for Power Fist (I don't think it needed a nerf by the way). Unarmed is arguably the strongest of melee builds so I don't think it's going to be a big problem.

 

[Stavrophore]

Underrail is for like 5 euro on gog!. The price is just too good for such a majestic game.

 

[Lhynn]

What's wrong with it?

Basically that its just numbers and doesnt acknowledge moment to moment gameplay. light armored builds were already very rng dependant, it has steadily become more and more of a crapshot.

Damage on high-end infused leather gloves was inflated to begin with, it was pretty much the only weapon in the entire game that could reach 200 quality.

Not really, the damage has always been low, you could not even hurt some opponents. Needing to rely on a single target feat thats on a cooldown to get by.

It also made metal gloves completly not worth it, save for Power Fist (I don't think it needed a nerf by the way).

Metal gloves always felt like they were intended for STR unarmed builds. Also an idea for this would be to improve metal gloves or give them their niche with different options.

Unarmed is arguably the strongest of melee builds so I don't think it's going to be a big problem.

Actually unarmed is the weakest melee build, without force emission its downright pathetic. With it its pretty great tho. But thats psionics, which also carry their own penalty and add to the RNG factor by lowering the HP pool, so the price for that was already paid for.
Also HP reduction from psionics was a bad idea, as it basically leaves heavily armored builds that rely on miigation in the cold, as HP is much more valuable to them point per point.

Anyway, you are wrong, what makes unarmed good is the sheer amount of synergies the game offers for it, not the power of any individual thing in them. To counter it you could either limit said synergy (which would be retarded) or nerf every single element constantly (which has been even more retarded). Or you could leave it alone and focus on encounter design (which is something styg has also done and is a good idea) and bringing more interesting synergies for the other weapons in the game.

 

[Parabalus]

Unarmed is arguably the strongest of melee builds so I don't think it's going to be a big problem.

Actually unarmed is the weakest melee build, without force emission its downright pathetic. With it its pretty great tho. But thats psionics, which also carry their own penalty and add to the RNG factor by lowering the HP pool, so the price for that was already paid for.
Also HP reduction from psionics was a bad idea, as it basically leaves heavily armored builds that rely on miigation in the cold, as HP is much more valuable to them point per point.

Anyway, you are wrong, what makes unarmed good is the sheer amount of synergies the game offers for it, not the power of any individual thing in them. To counter it you could either limit said synergy (which would be retarded) or nerf every single element constantly (which has been even more retarded). Or you could leave it alone and focus on encounter design (which is something styg has also done and is a good idea) and bringing more interesting synergies for the other weapons in the game.

This is just bullshit. Light unarmed was (likely still is) by far the best melee. Since your weapons were Q190ish you were miles above everyone else thanks to nothing but raw numbers - it made knives which share feats/stats appear garbage by comparison. Psionics aren't even needed.

Not really, the damage has always been low, you could not even hurt some opponents. Needing to rely on a single target feat thats on a cooldown to get by.

Your attacks cost 4 AP (used to be 2 AP), that's 12 attacks minimum, do you expect each one to 1-hit KO something

 

[Sykar]

Anyone else facepalming at the sheer stupidity that are the waves at the final step of "The Beast" quest series? Seems like double the amount of bladelings alongside 50% more HP and permanently buffed with extra melee attacks (max stack Taste for blood....) there seems no end to them and the entire fight deteriorates into how many bear traps one can spam.

Anyone who wants to try this on Dominating, unless you have a crap ton of AoE you will need something like 50+ bear traps probably. Maybe more. This has nothing to do with "hard" anymore, it is just flat out obnoxious and anti-fun.

 

[Tygrende]

Basically that its just numbers and doesnt acknowledge moment to moment gameplay.

I provided more than numbers, I also said how those numbers affect gameplay. Specifically the value of high DR and flat HP bonuses.

So what's that "moment to moment gameplay" regarding the infused leather armor you speak of? That's pretty vague, you need to be more specific.

light armored builds were already very rng dependant, it has steadily become more and more of a crapshot..

The only build I ironmaned the game with was lightly armored, wearing 20% penalty pig leather. It's anything but RNG dependant. I would agree than dodge/evasion builds are RNG dependant, but wearing light armor doesn't necessarily mean you will be investing in them. High stealth and lots of MPs are the main benefits of low armor penalty.

Also HP reduction from psionics was a bad idea, as it basically leaves heavily armored builds that rely on miigation in the cold, as HP is much more valuable to them point per point.

25% HP reduction is a very small price for everything psi offers, arguably too small. Even with it psi builds are still the most powerful builds in the game.

 

[Stavrophore]

Mushroom Cove depot has way too many azuridae on dominating. They all converge on my location, and its impossible to kill them.

After 20 bear traps rigging the front door -its doable. So current meta is a stealthy char with traps playing on oddity, got it. Gotta dust off the old good crossbow build... And i thought sledgehammer heavy will be finally a good build :/

 

[Lhynn]

This is just bullshit. Light unarmed was (likely still is) by far the best melee. Since your weapons were Q190ish you were miles above everyone else thanks to nothing but raw numbers - it made knives which share feats/stats appear garbage by comparison. Psionics aren't even needed.

Not according to my experience, but then again, i never made room for skinner feat. I found that without expose weakness my character could simply not hurt anything with high armor.

[/QUOTE]Your attacks cost 4 AP (used to be 2 AP), that's 12 attacks minimum, do you expect each one to 1-hit KO something[/QUOTE]
Attacks are 5 AP if you reach dex 14, 4 Ap was before taste for blood was nerfed. Read my previous point.

 

[Tygrende]

Anyone else facepalming at the sheer stupidity that are the waves at the final step of "The Beast" quest series? Seems like double the amount of bladelings alongside 50% more HP and permanently buffed with extra melee damage (Taste for blood....) there seems no end to them and the entire fight deterioates into how many bear traps one can spam.

Anyone who wants to try this on Dominating, unless you have a crap ton of AoE you will need something like 50+ bear traps probably. Maybe more. This has nothing to do with "hard" anymore, it is just flat out obnoxious and anti-fun.

I haven't reached Foundry yet, but I always found the final fight in that questline to be pretty underwhelming. Twice the amount of bladelings with more HP and DMG doesn't sound too bad to me.

I'm not having a lot of trouble with DOMINATING so far actually, playing sniper/pistol build. I do need to skip some fights and stealth through enemies I can't handle, but it's fine so far. Saving Newton is easy enough if you use doors to separate the psi beetles, I did Silent Isle before Depot A without too much problem (killed the rathounds without aggroing the bettles and then simply stealthed by them to pick up the cargo, took some reloads to get it right, mostly because Broderick was feeling suicidal). Depot A was easy enough even without disabling the turrets (EMP+ Snipe and Aimed Shot with AP ammo was enough to make short work of them). Looking forward to the Rathound King fight.

 

[Sykar]

Anyone else facepalming at the sheer stupidity that are the waves at the final step of "The Beast" quest series? Seems like double the amount of bladelings alongside 50% more HP and permanently buffed with extra melee damage (Taste for blood....) there seems no end to them and the entire fight deterioates into how many bear traps one can spam.

Anyone who wants to try this on Dominating, unless you have a crap ton of AoE you will need something like 50+ bear traps probably. Maybe more. This has nothing to do with "hard" anymore, it is just flat out obnoxious and anti-fun.

I haven't reached Foundry yet, but I always found the final fight in that questline to be pretty underwhelming. Twice the amount of bladelings with more HP and DMG doesn't sound too bad to me.

I'm not having a lot of trouble with DOMINATING so far actually, playing sniper/pistol build. I do need to skip some fights and stealth through enemies I can't handle, but it's fine so far. Saving Newton is easy enough if you use doors to separate the psi beetles, I did Silent Isle before Depot A without too much problem (killed the rathounds without aggroing the bettles and then simply stealthed by them to pick up the cargo, took some reloads to get it right, mostly because Broderick was feeling suicidal). Depot A was easy enough even without disabling the turrets (EMP+ Snipe and Aimed Shot with AP ammo was enough to make short work of them). Looking forward to the Rathound King fight.

Twice? Try quadruple at bare minimum.

 

[Lhynn]

I provided more than numbers, I also said how those numbers affect gameplay. Specifically the value of high DR and flat HP bonuses.

starting at turn 3 the overcoat will provide a bigger bonus increasing with each turn.

Every fight in the game that matters lasts over 3 rounds. This is what i meant by my statement. Dominating only makes your comparison even more ridiculous as every fights duration got increaded by over 50%.

The only build I ironmaned the game with was lightly armored, wearing 20% penalty pig leather. It's anything but RNG dependant. I would agree than dodge/evasion builds are RNG dependant, but wearing light armor doesn't necessarily mean you will be investing in them.

Remember that quality of infused going down means less dodge/evasion/othergoodies, making the character easier to hit. But its true, you could just as well not invest in it, the game does offer other sensible choices, which makes the fact that it got nerfed more inane.

25% HP reduction is a very small price for everything psi offers, arguably too small. Even with it psi builds are still the most powerful builds in the game.

Way to miss the point of what you are quoting.

 

[Tygrende]

Twice? Try quadruple at bare minimum.

That's even better!

I think you just have the wrong idea about this difficulty. It's not supposed to be a carefully balanced step-up from Hard, at least not yet. Right now it's experimental madness that was given to the seasoned masochists who played the game so much Hard just doesn't do it for them. Hell, even the in-game description says that Stygian doesn't gurantee it's possible to finish it. I love it.

 

[Sykar]

Twice? Try quadruple at bare minimum.

That's even better!

I think you just have the wrong idea about this difficulty. It's not supposed to be a carefully balanced step-up from Hard, at least not yet. Right now it's experimental madness that was given to the seasoned masochists who played the game so much Hard just doesn't do it for them. Hell, even the in-game description says that Stygian doesn't gurantee it's possible to finish it. I love it.

No it is not "better", it is retarded. Increased damage, HP and amount per wave was enough, but it seems like he also doubled the amount of waves which come which makes no sense considering you cannot even slaughter half as much inside the mines.

What is worse is that any build which does not have an overabundance of AoE is forced to spam bear trap over the entire field. I had to reload even when I laid down well over 30 traps and the 50 I mentioned was a mere guestimate. Sorry but this is not fun. It is also not "hard" since there are no choices to be made it all boils down to "Are there enough bear traps or not?".