Completed Deus Ex: Mankind is quickly divided by Conspiracies and Invisible Wars

[RK47]

 

[RK47]

 

[RK47]

 

[Ninjerk]

*spends entire game not killing*
"He just made you better at taking lives away from other people!"

 

[abnaxus]

 

[Ninjerk]

 

[Ash]

Revealing the game for what it is: absolutely mindless in play. The gameplay is juvenile and stupid, and since that is what you spend the most time doing in a game that is not a good thing at all. I don't care if the themes, events and writing are interesting enough to the point of serviceable as with HR, if your game is dumb and not engaging it is not worthy.

The writing and themes are bad and don't make much sense. The feel of ever-present conspiracies from DE1 is gone, Human Revolution and this one are supposed to be set before DE1 yet everything is more advanced (flying robots, huge mechs, Jock in DE1 flies with fairly 'standard' black copter but in new ones they fly you around in skyrangers, Jensen can do anything JC can even without nano augmentations. The aug "racism" doesn't make much sense because it's just begging the question: if augs are worse than hitler what do normals do with people who have contemporary "augmentations" or even glass eyes? Do they send them to the aug ghettos too? And if not, where do they draw the line?
It's funny how not one out of all nu-DE characters came even close to Gunther and his tragedy of being afraid of becoming just a pile of scrap metal.

Just saw this.

The feel of ever-present conspiracies from DE1 is gone, Human Revolution and this one are supposed to be set before DE1 yet everything is more advanced (flying robots, huge mechs, Jock in DE1 flies with fairly 'standard' black copter but in new ones they fly you around in skyrangers, Jensen can do anything JC can even without nano augmentations

That doesn't mean the writing is bad per-se (based on its own merits), just that it takes a massive dump over the rest of the series.

The aug "racism" doesn't make much sense because it's just begging the question: if augs are worse than hitler what do normals do with people who have contemporary "augmentations" or even glass eyes? Do they send them to the aug ghettos too? And if not, where do they draw the line?
It's funny how not one out of all nu-DE characters came even close to Gunther and his tragedy of being afraid of becoming just a pile of scrap metal

Absolutely. There wasn't a single character I found interesting except the pivotal few, and even most of them were boring. Everyone else was cannon fodder or manikins to act as window dressing.
The game is mediocre, but I still think the writing was "serviceable" . By that I mean interesting enough to engage you get you to listen on the first playthrough, especially as far as modern AAA goes. If you can even be slightly invested in the game's story then that's "serviceable" by today's standards.
Gameplay too was probably serviceable by modern standards, but shit by any standards that actually matter.

 

[Ash]

Also, at RK47's many shitty opinions.

So what is the reward for taking a no kill approach in this game?
At least in Human Revolution and Mankind Divided you get more EXP for no alert and non-lethal takedown.
All I hear is Paul whining that I killed too many and Navarre saying I need to kill everyone.
Man, I'm so divided.

 

[RK47]

 

[Ash]

There is no "reward" either way. By design.

-Rewarding xp for specific actions, encourages specific actions. Especially when you award more xp for certain actions over others. The original Deus Ex doesn't judge. All it encourages is exploration.
-It's a middle finger to combat players to reward more xp for non-lethal.
-Such xp systems are always open to abuse, or are unbalanced, and encourage unrealistic banal grindy behavior.
-Constant XP pop-ups. It's a minor thing, but it is a bonus to be without if there is no need.

Eidos Montreal and every other RPG developer that is not Looking Glass did not get the memo.

The reward is the enjoyment of playing the game a different way. Seeing the story play out a different way in response. Having more freedom in roleplaying, and not having rewards holding too strong an influence over your behavior.
Don't get me wrong I love gamey systems, frequent rewards and pats on the back, but xp rewards based on playstyle is just flawed in RPGs (those with variable playstyles on offer) and always has been.

Stop playing the garbage sequels and instead replay Deus Ex (sensibly, not "low effort"), and also move on to the other Immersive Sim classics (System Shock 2, Arx Fatalis, Ultima Underworld) and experience the masterclass of game design.

 

[Ninjerk]

Biochip C&C

EDIT: Whenever she says Panchaea, I think pancetta and it makes me hungry.

 

[Dev_Anj]

. The original Deus Ex doesn't judge. All it encourages is exploration.

Which begs the question; why is rewarding xp for exploration good if rewarding xp for actions is not? I agree with your points but that's a genuine design question.

Stop playing the garbage sequels and instead replay Deus Ex (sensibly, not "low effort"),

Sounds like you're forcing him to replay a game just because you want him to have an opinion that agrees with you. Try to avoid that, forcing people to do things against their will often only makes them hate it even more. What's the problem with him not liking some design decisions of Deus Ex, and what's the guarantee he'll like them after a replay?

 

[abnaxus]

Should've just appealed to that Chink's honour.

 

[RK47]

Should've just appealed to that Chink's honour.

Sounds like you're forcing him to replay a game

I don't have to, since he wants to kill himself.

 

[Ash]

Which begs the question; why is rewarding xp for exploration good if rewarding xp for actions is not?

Because the alternative to exploration is not exploring (which in most circumstances is bad), and because exploration is already rewarded by default in a multitude of ways so there is no harm added by further rewards. In fact, skill rewards for exploration are a crucial reward that ensures all playstyles are rewarded equally. In a secret stash you can only place so many items/rewards, and skill points are one of few resources that benefit all playstyles equally.

Sounds like you're forcing him to replay a game just because you want him to have an opinion that agrees with you.

I've a gun to his head and everything.

What's the problem with him not liking some design decisions of Deus Ex?

Dev_Anj, oh Dev of Anj...

He was missing the point. If he still dislikes the design decision afterwards, then I expect logical reasoning as to why. If none can be provided, casual.txt will be updated.

This is the Codex. Meaning bashing of opinions and dicking around is part of the fun.

He never said he didn't like the game. There's no reason he'd hate it on a replay.

I'm not forcing him to do anything.

It's Deus Ex for fuck sake. If one does not like it, 'tard.txt will be updated.

Edit: Fucking font size troll script goddamn it.

 

[RK47]

 

[Ash]

 

[Dev_Anj]

Because the alternative to exploration is not exploring (which in most circumstances is bad), and because exploration is already rewarded by default in a multitude of ways so there is no harm added by further rewards. In fact, skill rewards for exploration are a crucial reward that ensures all playstyles are rewarded equally. In a secret stash you can only place so many items/rewards, and skill points are one of few resources that benefit all playstyles equally.

All of the above applies to killing or defeating enemies in most games too. So the question still stands.

I'm not forcing him to do anything.

Your tone in that post implies otherwise. "Stop playing these stupid modern games and replay Deus Ex seriously instead!" Just, well, try to keep that in mind when posting, ok?

 

[Ash]

All of the above applies to killing or defeating enemies in most games too. So the question still stands.

No, it only still stands for those that are missing the point.

Your tone in that post implies otherwise. "Stop playing these stupid modern games and replay Deus Ex seriously instead!" Just, well, try to keep that in mind when posting, ok?

lol. That is precisely my tone. Nonetheless I'm not forcing him to do anything.
RK47 is not phased I'm sure, just as I'm not phased by him telling me to kill myself, because it's ultimately just banter and harmless bashing. Nobody has crossed any lines yet, except you and your damn incessant pestering.

There is clearly a language (or dialect is probably more accurate) barrier hindering communication between us at times, as there's a lot you don't seem to get. That's fine, it's understandable, I can't speak your native language the slightest, just get off my case.

 

[RK47]

Because the alternative to exploration is not exploring (which in most circumstances is bad), and because exploration is already rewarded by default in a multitude of ways so there is no harm added by further rewards. In fact, skill rewards for exploration are a crucial reward that ensures all playstyles are rewarded equally. In a secret stash you can only place so many items/rewards, and skill points are one of few resources that benefit all playstyles equally.

All of the above applies to killing or defeating enemies in most games too. So the question still stands.

I'm not forcing him to do anything.

Your tone in that post implies otherwise. "Stop playing these stupid modern games and replay Deus Ex seriously instead!" Just, well, try to keep that in mind when posting, ok?

Please keep posting.

 

[Dev_Anj]

No, it only still stands for those that are missing the point.

While this isn't the right thread for it, let's try breaking down the reasons you posted for rewarding exploration with xp being good ok?

Because the alternative to exploration is not exploring (which in most circumstances is bad)

And what's the alternative to not killing or defeating enemies in many games? Just avoid them? That's bad in most circumstances, and is in fact near impossible in many games.

and because exploration is already rewarded by default in a multitude of ways so there is no harm added by further rewards

Most of this applies to killing or defeating enemies too. The reward you get from that is a sense of having overcome them, or having engaged in a good fight if the combat gameplay is good. In addition, it also frees up a space and makes it safe for you to look around or take a breather if you feel like it.

In a secret stash you can only place so many items/rewards,

Similarly, you can only put so many drops for enemies before it starts feeling contrived.

Now the xp system works fine in Deus Ex because it's a game that gives decent options for avoiding or sneakily disabling enemies, though a few are still unfortunately not placed with consideration to the stealth playstyle. My point is in many games there's not much difference to rewarding xp for combat or for exploration since both are mandatory, so it's not necessarily always a good design decision to reward one and not the other.

As for being on your case, well you know very well that you've had a sordid posting history and you have got into nasty fights and arguments a bit too often because of your aggressive posting. I just try to warn you against that.

 

[RK47]

Such a weak mission for a Pre-Order bonus.
And it's kinda plot-related as well.

 

[Ash]

And what's the alternative to not killing or defeating enemies in many games? Just avoid them? That's bad in most circumstances, and is in fact near impossible in many games.

Remember we're primarily talking about offering variable xp based on playstyle (e.g more xp for non-lethal than anything else, more for headshots etc). But OK, as you wish:

Why rewarding even the same amount of xp no matter how you take out enemies is bad in an RPG offering variable playstyles (using Deus Ex as an example):

-It encourages taking out neutrals turned hostile. Starting fights with police just for their xp, for example. Sure, the designer can exclude police from providing xp rewards (HR did this if I recall), but a player will only discover that after having killed/K.O'd the police in the first place, and it creates additional inconsistency (even if only minor).
-It excludes ghosting/avoiding enemies.
-You associate NPCs with xp, a unbelievable award. Hostile NPCs only, at that. they have a subconscious asterisks above their head *comes with 10xp for removal. It influences how the player perceives the virtual entity on some level, which is bad in games that intend to be immersive.
-Frequent pop-ups per takedown (if present) are potentially annoying, and also are used to confirm kills/K.Os. In other words, immersion breaking.
-Does it account for friendly fire or suicide? If an NPC accidentally killed his buddy or himself, why do I get the xp? and if I don't, that rules out emergent (unforeseen) scenarios where a player may have set it up to happen.
-Does it account for your team mates killing the enemy? Picture Jojo vs Renton. If you do not get the xp for renton killing Jojo, that strongly encourages the player to take out jojo himself. So you make it so it does give xp for it, at some point. We get xp for giving our gun away and doing nothing now!

I could go on, and I will if I feel up to it later.

And what's the alternative to not killing or defeating enemies in many games? Just avoid them? That's bad in most circumstances, and is in fact near impossible in many games.

Deus Ex can be ghosted in almost all instances. You don't have to ghost the whole game, you can just be low on resources and want to avoid a particular group. Or you may take pity on an NPC based on his dialogue and not want to fuck up his day. Roleplayers and bleeding hearts will relate.

No xp for specific actions is entirely choice and playstyle-neutral, as is xp for exploration. It only excludes non-explorers, yet there's no reason not to encourage exploration and if you're not exploring you're playing it wrong, or are speedrunning, speedrunners being something that designers should never take into consideration in an RPG (and most other types of games that are not about racing against the clock).

Most of this applies to killing or defeating enemies too. The reward you get from that is a sense of having overcome them, or having engaged in a good fight if the combat gameplay is good. In addition, it also frees up a space and makes it safe for you to look around or take a breather if you feel like it.

Those are things that cannot be helped, except by making combat more shit by design for example, which should never be a goal, and most are are natural sense of reward anyway. They're also mostly a sense of reward and not actual virtual-material rewards like xp is.

As for being on your case, well you know very well that you've had a sordid posting history and you have got into nasty fights and arguments a bit too often because of your aggressive posting. I just try to warn you against that.

Sordid or not (no), I don't intend to change.

 

[Baron Dupek]

Ash, stop telling people how to play
I like Steve's LPs because of the way he play, combo of notgiveafucks and else
And I don't even watch LPs on YT, only read some in lparchive twice a year

 

[Black]

Who the fuck's Steve