Deus Ex Deus Ex: Mankind Divided Pre-Release Thread

[Angthoron]

Why would sparing enemies in one area (on potentially a different continent, consideirng previous Deus Ex games) result in more enemies being present in another area?

Organizations are still the same, so they don't lose their operatives and don't need to stretch their forces thin. Of course, they would also likely have pretty large numbers of pawns, in which case, immunities or complications vs player's fav toys would be the way to go.

Also, some of those consequences sound like they would incentivize sticking to one play style even more.

Some would, some wouldn't. You don't need to force the player, just give him options and make the world seem more reactive. That's 'bout it.

 

[Jaedar]

Actually, XP shouldn't be rewarded for any of those things, just like in the original Deus Ex.

Quite.

Sadly, the devs don't understand this, and from all we've seen so far of this latest iteration, xp rewards are just as skewed as they were in the first game.

 

[Zombra]

Well, the alternative is lethality being mandatory, so this is good news. Whenever killing people is too easy/convenient/rewarding, we get shit like Dishonoured.

What the hell? What weak binary thinking is this? Of course it isn't. To use one of my favorite examples, look at a game like Desperados. It gives you very convenient tools for killing people (e.g. Cooper's knife), but also tons of different tools to knock enemies out that play differently in interesting ways. There was even a level that required total non-lethality in order to train you in those tools. But usually you had your choice, and usually it was significantly less convenient to be nonlethal. At the very least, when you knocked a guy out you had to have a certain character come tie them up (or they'd wake up later and bite you in the ass), making every operation take at least one extra action. But if you wanted to go to the extra effort, you could play nonlethally most of the time. Anybody remember that one level where you're trapped in the middle of a town with a thousand soldiers searching for you? Finished it without killing a single person. (Hey, they were just doing their jobs.) It was a pain in the ass, but super rewarding.

Unless you're claiming something stupid like "the path of least resistance = mandatory". That not being true is my whole point. If you slaughtered everyone in Dishonored just because it was easier, you're proving it. To be an actual good person, it has to cost you something. Loading blue bullets instead of red bullets, or punching instead of stabbing (DX:HR) only means you didn't make a deliberate choice to be evil. That's not the same as being good. It just makes you "whatever".

I haven't been watching dev too closely, but if Jaedar is right, then sadly the devs are going the other way - materially rewarding you for being good instead of making it harder on you. Getting double xp for being nonlethal is a huge incentive. The only reason to be lethal at that point is that you are willing to pay to be an asshole. This is head-shakingly backwards design in terms of moral choices.

 

[Jaedar]

Getting double xp for being nonlethal is a huge incentive. The only reason to be lethal at that point is that you are willing to pay to be an asshole. This is head-shakingly backwards design in terms of moral choices.

To recap: In HR, you get 10 xp for a kill, and a +10 bonus if it is a headshot.
For knocking someone out you get 30 xp, and the same headshot bonus.
In either case, you get +20 for using melee.

So it's not just double xp, it will more often shake out to being more than double. Plus all nonlethal weapons are inherently silent, while even the lethal melee takedown is loud.

Human revolution REALLY wants you to know that if you are killing the enemies, you are playing it wrong.

 

[Infinitron]

I haven't been watching dev too closely, but if Jaedar is right, then sadly the devs are going the other way - materially rewarding you for being good instead of making it harder on you. Getting double xp for being nonlethal is a huge incentive. The only reason to be lethal at that point is that you are willing to pay to be an asshole. This is head-shakingly backwards design in terms of moral choices.

No, that's not right.

It might still be "skewed", but now it seems they're trying to reward "extreme" takedowns of all types with more experience points, not just non-lethal ones.

 

[Fairfax]

What the hell? What weak binary thinking is this? Of course it isn't. To use one of my favorite examples, look at a game like Desperados. It gives you very convenient tools for killing people (e.g. Cooper's knife), but also tons of different tools to knock enemies out that play differently in interesting ways. There was even a level that required total non-lethality in order to train you in those tools. But usually you had your choice, and usually it was significantly less convenient to be nonlethal. At the very least, when you knocked a guy out you had to have a certain character come tie them up (or they'd wake up later and bite you in the ass), making every operation take at least one extra action. But if you wanted to go to the extra effort, you could play nonlethally most of the time. Anybody remember that one level where you're trapped in the middle of a town with a thousand soldiers searching for you? Finished it without killing a single person. (Hey, they were just doing their jobs.) It was a pain in the ass, but super rewarding.

Unless you're claiming something stupid like "the path of least resistance = mandatory". That not being true is my whole point. If you slaughtered everyone in Dishonored just because it was easier, you're proving it. To be an actual good person, it has to cost you something. Loading blue bullets instead of red bullets, or punching instead of stabbing (DX:HR) only means you didn't make a deliberate choice to be evil. That's not the same as being good. It just makes you "whatever".

I haven't been watching dev too closely, but if Jaedar is right, then sadly the devs are going the other way - materially rewarding you for being good instead of making it harder on you. Getting double xp for being nonlethal is a huge incentive. The only reason to be lethal at that point is that you are willing to pay to be an asshole. This is head-shakingly backwards design in terms of moral choices.

Eh...that's not what I meant at all. He expressed concern with lethality being "100% optional" in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. It was optional for most of the last Deus Ex, but mandatory in boss fights. My point is that the lethal approach is either a valid option for the whole game or it isn't. Not that it's a binary choice the developers have, but I meant in regards to a simple question: "is lethality entirely optional in such game?" It's a yes or no question, that's all.

 

[Zombra]

Human revolution REALLY wants you to know that if you are killing the enemies, you are playing it wrong.

Yeah. I played with a pretty soft touch until I realized how much the game was trying to manipulate my thinking. After that I started killing doods out of spite.

They're changing it. It might still be "skewed" somehow, but now it seems they're trying to reward "extreme" takedowns of all types with more experience points, not just non-lethal ones.

Well, if lethal and nonlethal are equally rewarded instead of nonlethal being highly incentivized, it's a step in the right direction. This is good news.

Eh...that's not what I meant at all. He expressed concern with lethality being "100% optional" in Deus Ex: Mankind Divided.

Ahhh, I see. Perhaps I underemphasized the important part - I was (and still am) worried about lethality being 100% optional for every playstyle. Setting aside the extra xp for nonlethality, red or blue bullets was in essence an entirely cosmetic choice! Sniper rifle or tranq rifle, punch or stab, no significant gameplay difference. Pretty weak. I want it to be a real decision.

 

[Carrion]

To me the way they're dealing with the whole nonlethal approach seems a bit wrong, and it was already wrong in Human Revolution, especially with the Director's Cut that added air ducts to bossfights. Going nonlethal shouldn't be a direct alternative for killing everything, it should be a completely different way of playing the game, it should be fucking hard and force you into compromises all the way through, because you're just one guy (basically a superhuman, but still) and pretty much everyone else is out there to murder you with everything they've got.

You can go almost completely nonlethal in Deus Ex, but this often means skipping entire areas, running away from fights, saving up on your nonlethal tools and simply avoiding any kind of a confrontation a lot of the time, figuring out the layouts of each level and finding the routes that will get you through them with minimum hassle. Most people probably didn't even consider it a real option when they were first dropped on Liberty Island, which made it that more satisfying when you managed to get through a level without anyone getting killed. Being the good guy was the hardest route, the one that required the most sacrifices. Now they're actively catering to it, making it easy to take down everyone you see, drowning you in nonlethal tools and just making it a lot less interesting to be a pacifist in general. If the difference between total slaughter and not harming a soul is simply using a different gun, what's the point? It's just another total misinterpretation of Deus Ex, kind of like each level having an obvious "stealth path" in Human Revolution.

 

[Infinitron]

To me the way they're dealing with the whole nonlethal approach seems a bit wrong, and it was already wrong in Human Revolution, especially with the Director's Cut that added air ducts to bossfights. Going nonlethal shouldn't be a direct alternative for killing everything, it should be a completely different way of playing the game, it should be fucking hard and force you into compromises all the way through, because you're just one guy (basically a superhuman, but still) and pretty much everyone else is out there to murder you with everything they've got.

You can go almost completely nonlethal in Deus Ex, but this often means skipping entire areas, running away from fights, saving up on your nonlethal tools and simply avoiding any kind of a confrontation a lot of the time, figuring out the layouts of each level and finding the routes that will get you through them with minimum hassle. Most people probably didn't even consider it a real option when they were first dropped on Liberty Island, which made it that more satisfying when you managed to get through a level without anyone getting killed. Being the good guy was the hardest route, the one that required the most sacrifices. Now they're actively catering to it, making it easy to take down everyone you see, drowning you in nonlethal tools and just making it a lot less interesting to be a pacifist in general. If the difference between total slaughter and not harming a soul is simply using a different gun, what's the point? It's just another total misinterpretation of Deus Ex, kind of like each level having an obvious "stealth path" in Human Revolution.

Again, have you read what they're saying/watched the presentation I linked to above? They didn't like how it was in Human Revolution, they're now trying to incentivize lethal play and I haven't seen much evidence that there's going to be anything in the way of "drowning in nonlethal tools".

Whether or not they'll also incentivize that through level design and encounter design or if it's just a matter of making lethal play more rewarding in terms of experience points and overall enjoyment remains to be seen, but right now the DX: MD guys aren't really talking much about nonlethal at all. The only time they bring up the whole 100% non-lethal stealth thing is when they're reassuring people that the game won't have the same kind of boss fights Human Revolution did, because that was something they got a lot of criticism for.

 

[Jaedar]

Again, have you read what they're saying/watched the presentation I linked to above? They didn't like how it was in Human Revolution, they're now trying to incentivize lethal play and I haven't seen much evidence that there's going to be anything in the way of "drowning in nonlethal tools".

You are way too trusting 'tron.

The devs said they fixed it, and why would they ever lie or fail? After all, they have an amazing track record of not failing!

Oh and plus, we already know that this time you get nonlethal melee aug, and a nonlethal ranged aug (shocky arm shootz).

 

[Infinitron]

You are way too trusting 'tron.

The devs said they fixed it, and why would they ever lie or fail? After all, they have an amazing track record of not failing!

Of course they might fail. But it seems like some people ITT are not aware of what's actually being said but instead just kind of want to talk more about what they didn't like in Human Revolution or something.

Oh and plus, we already know that this time you get nonlethal melee aug, and a nonlethal ranged aug (shocky arm shootz).

Yeah. Those sound like they might just be replacements for the standard non-lethal takedown and DX:HR's Stun Gun/Tranq Rifle, though? I'm not sure if they've talked about that anywhere.

It'd be great if they replaced the takedown with a melee weapon you actually have to get close with, aim and use.

 

[Jaedar]

Of course they might fail. But it seems like some people ITT are not aware of what's actually being said but instead just kind of want to talk more about what they didn't like in Human Revolution or something.

Mhm.

So, since you seem to have been paying a lot of attention: How many of the weapons appear to be holdovers from the previous games? I remember them using an assault rifle and a shotgun in the presentation, but I don't remember nor do I care enough to compare the models and such to those from HR.

And I would be very surprised if the devs removed options in the sequel. They might replace the stun gun with a stun aug, but you'll still wind up having too many nonlethal tools. The biggest offender is of course the Awesome buttan, since it was completely risk free and cost free (and still seems to be iirc).

 

[Infinitron]

And I would be very surprised if the devs removed options in the sequel. They might replace the stun gun with a stun aug, but you'll still wind up having too many nonlethal tools. The biggest offender is of course the Awesome buttan, since it was completely risk free and cost free (and still seems to be iirc).

The number of non-lethal tools is not the problem, the fact that they're too easy/reliable to use is. DX actually had an equal or greater number of them - riot prod, baton, pepper spray, gas grenades, tranq darts. But they required more finesse (which was achieved by them being kind of derpy-feeling).

And I would be very surprised if the devs removed options in the sequel. They might replace the stun gun with a stun aug, but you'll still wind up having too many nonlethal tools. The biggest offender is of course the Awesome buttan, since it was completely risk free and cost free (and still seems to be iirc).

Yeah, they're not going to remove the takedowns. Alas, they're a "signature element" now, like Blinking in Dishonored. In fact, they're going to be adding the option to "takedown from cover" (which you could already do in DX:HR actually, but the animation would play outside of cover).

Very popamole, but at least you'll get to feel like a badass pulling dudes behind a corner and elbowing them in the face or something

 

[Jaedar]

The number of non-lethal tools is not the problem, the fact that they're too easy/reliable to use is. DX actually had an equal or greater number of them - riot prod, baton, pepper spray, gas grenades, tranq darts. But they required more finesse (which was achieved by them being kind of derpy-feeling).

I am not sure it is fair to count gas grenades and pepper spray as discrete options, as neither is capable of knocking out enemies on its own, they only stun them to allow for easy batoning. But yeah sure, its not the number, its the quality. HR had three (like deus ex): Melee, stun gun, tranq gun. Comparing them to DX counterparts: melee requires 0 skill in contrast to well aimed chop from the back, stun gun is ranged compared to prod and tranq gun doesn't alert the enemy and makes it shoot at you. We know MD will keep melee as is.

The devs might be saying they'll fix it, but so far I have seen 0 indication they know how to fix it. I'm not even sure they've properly understood the problem.

 

[Infinitron]

I am not sure it is fair to count gas grenades and pepper spray as discrete options, as neither is capable of knocking out enemies on its own, they only stun them to allow for easy batoning. But yeah sure, its not the number, its the quality. HR had three (like deus ex): Melee, stun gun, tranq gun. Comparing them to DX counterparts: melee requires 0 skill in contrast to well aimed chop from the back, stun gun is ranged compared to prod and tranq gun doesn't alert the enemy and makes it shoot at you. We know MD will keep melee as is.

The devs might be saying they'll fix it, but so far I have seen 0 indication they know how to fix it. I'm not even sure they've properly understood the problem.

"The game is too easy" is not a problem AAA developers have any intention of fixing (even if they do understand it). Like I said...

 

[Carrion]

Level design plays a huge part as well. Human Revolution mostly consisted of isolated rooms that usually offered enough space and cover to quite easily take out enemies one by one (or two at a time, as that too only required one key press). In combination with some other aspects of the level design it made stealth very formulaic. With larger areas and more complex enemy patrol routes things could get more interesting, as you'd have to find a way to dispose of the bodies in case a guard ends up patrolling the area five minutes later, which would add another layer of difficulty to a non-lethal approach. There should also be more areas where taking the enemies out one by one wouldn't be a real option, like an open, well-lit area with little cover and guards on each side, the occasional small, tightly-packed room where guards will instantly notice if someone gets attacked, or a narrow, heavily monitored corridor that would be better avoided altogether (via other means than an adjacent air duct). A fully stealthy approach should require a combination of silent takedowns, ghosting, and various other tricks (like setting off alarms on purpose to lure enemies out of a room, setting traps or using augs to create routes that didn't exist before), whereas in HR you could get through pretty much anything with the same strategy. This is one area that they might be actually improving on this time, but it's hard to say yet based on the little we've seen of the game so far.

 

[Alfons]

I jus hope they do something with the AI. I think they had the option to throw grenades but they never did it when they actually had too. Combat with large groups of people boiled down to hiding behind a corner and blindfiring with your explosive revolver, self-aiming rifle/SMG, or minigun. Even by popamole standards that was shitty.

 

[Neanderthal]

Glad that they're trying to make combat a viable option, I mean Jensen gets his dick cut off in that augmentation cinematic, if that were me i'd be more than fucking murderous. Wonder if they replaced it with a cyber dick? He's got to piss after all.

 

[Ludo Lense]

Glad that they're trying to make combat a viable option, I mean Jensen gets his dick cut off in that augmentation cinematic, if that were me i'd be more than fucking murderous. Wonder if they replaced it with a cyber dick? He's got to piss after all.

Not necessarily. Maybe they put

to break down all dat protein bar goodness so he doesn't need to urinate or defecate.

 

[Neanderthal]

No dick and no good long dumps, i'm beginning to pity the poor bastard, mind you curry night'd be a lot more palatable.

 

[Alfons]

No dick and no good long dumps, i'm beginning to pity the poor bastard, mind you curry night'd be a lot more palatable.

Didn't you watch space truckers? The wind up dick thing? I'm sure the guy has a dick replacement device.

 

[Neanderthal]

Was that the Charles Dance one? That were fucking funny.

 

[J1M]

Why do you care whether an attack is lethal or not? All of the characters are fictional.

The real issue is that XP should only be rewarded for completing objectives, not as style points. The latter restricts player freedom because during a first playthrough players will not know what the developers know about the game having an overabundance of XP available.

 

[Durandal]

Why do you care whether an attack is lethal or not? All of the characters are fictional.

Are you telling me you don't want to be cyber-Batman 2077?

Besides, killing is for amateurs.

 

[Zombra]

Why do you care whether an attack is lethal or not? All of the characters are fictional.

Good point. How you do something doesn't matter in games. What matters is getting to the end credits screen and/or completing all achievements as efficiently as possible.