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Deus Ex: Give me a better Liberty Island

someone else

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Okay, let's say you are a military organization that is holding a small island with a tall structure in the center. You have *one* sniper rifle.

Where do you deploy that rifle?

If you answered 'on a ground-bound soldier actively patrolling a route of dubious strategic value,' you are *wrong!*

But this is exactly what happens in the first level of Deus Ex.

Also unexplained is the presence of so many situationally useless miniature crossbows, and the fact that the NSF troops remain in non-ready, at-ease positions even in the face of steadily advancing gunfire.

The lack of air-support *even though there is a chopper on-site* (it takes off when you first approach UNATCO) is also difficult to swallow. In fact, given the exposed position of many of the NSF troops, a chopper-based attack would be devastating.

Also, you could radio UNATCO troops to *advance to your position* after you've cleared an area, it would be a further improvement.
 

Infinitron

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No excuse for the NSF's ineptitude, but the ingame explanation is that someone has decided that the Liberty Island situation is to be a field test for UNATCO's newest augmented agent (you).

You should realize that back in 2000, the military shooter genre hadn't yet fully solidified the connection between first person shooter games and real-life tactics. It was the awkward transition period between Doom/Quake and Call of Duty, when Half-Life's HECU grunts were considered to be the most super-realistic troops ever seen in a game.
 

Destroid

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And yet it's still hailed as one of the best DX levels, and therefore one of the best levels in computer game history.
 

Wyrmlord

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Videogames aren't judged by their realism, so much as how much fun they provide.

And Liberty Island was a lot of fun.
 

Serious_Business

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Aren't you copy pasting this from somewhere? I swear I read this before.

I don't think the engine/AI could handle a long-range sniper (if they put him on the top of the tower).

Wyrmlord said:
Videogames aren't judged by their realism, so much as how much fun they provide

Outrageous
 

Infinitron

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Serious_Business said:
Aren't you copy pasting this from somewhere? I swear I read this before.

I don't think the engine/AI could handle a long-range sniper (if they put him on the top of the tower).

There's a sniper on a tower at the end in Area 51, probably other places as well.

But, that tower isn't so high.
 

Carrion

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There's also the matter of a hostage situation which pretty much prevents an all-out helicopter assault. Also, the terrorist leader is wanted alive.
 

Oriebam

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Well, they didn't give you the location of the dudes outside like in the warehouse mission so you can assume it's because they really want to see how JC performs, though the bot and paul support you if you lure them close

Alternatively the developers thought having a sniper in the "tall structure" was unfair, or in that particular instance the AI had a hard time spotting you

Infinitron said:
Serious_Business said:
Aren't you copy pasting this from somewhere? I swear I read this before.

I don't think the engine/AI could handle a long-range sniper (if they put him on the top of the tower).

There's a sniper on a tower at the end in Area 51, probably other places as well.
Levels have snipers more often than not... the only places where they managed to kill me from afar were at the airport/on the way to the airport and on the surface on that underwater level, though :M the sniper on the underwater base is probably the only NPC that can normally from such a high distance
 

Skittles

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Destroid said:
And yet it's still hailed as one of the best DX levels, and therefore one of the best levels in computer game history.

I'm pretty sure I hear more bitching about this than praise, even from hardcore Deus Ex fans.

It's certainly memorable, and it's awesome because it's the first taste of Deus Ex, but places like Hell's Kitchen and Hong Kong were better, I think.
 

thesoup

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I don't understand why so many people dislike Liberty Island. I always thought it was really well designed, with lots of stuff you could easily miss and it was the perfect tutorial level showcasing how can you approach an objective.
 

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thesoup said:
I don't understand why so many people dislike Liberty Island. I always thought it was really well designed, with lots of stuff you could easily miss and it was the perfect tutorial level showcasing how can you approach an objective.
It's a good level but it throws you into the deep end with minimal equipment and you have to adjust to the fact that your aiming is utterly terrible unless you stand dead still for 1-2 seconds (until you find that laser sight mod).
 

Reject_666_6

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thesoup said:
I don't understand why so many people dislike Liberty Island. I always thought it was really well designed, with lots of stuff you could easily miss and it was the perfect tutorial level showcasing how can you approach an objective.

You can start understanding by reading the OP.

In short, it's a good level but the NSF deployed like a bunch of kindergarteners.
 

gromit

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Reject_666_6 said:
thesoup said:
I don't understand why so many people dislike Liberty Island. I always thought it was really well designed, with lots of stuff you could easily miss and it was the perfect tutorial level showcasing how can you approach an objective.

You can start understanding by reading the OP.

In short, it's a good level but the NSF deployed like a bunch of kindergarteners.
You could always understand that the OP is not the only opinion ever shared about that level, you snarky fuck. I've heard a lot of indirect hate for it, and it never made sense to me, either. Usually stuff like "it's a great game, just bear with it through the first level," etc. The first level is practically a miniature version of the whole game!

That said, it already drops you right into the deep end, given it was many, many people's first game of its kind. I wouldn't be surprised if they had a couple of snipers on the higher parts of the base, before deciding that might be a little much given your vulnerability and inaccuracy at that point. Having x% chance to die whenever in sight of the statue would have (justifiably or not) spiked bullshit meters left and right.

I'd be surprised if the "remix" mod doesn't do this, though - anyone know?
 

waywardOne

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You don't just deploy snipers because you feel like it. JCD had full military training and wouldn't hit shit from any height at LI because his skill still sucks. What makes people think the NSF is some kind of elite merc group? There's evidence all around they're merely yokels and good ol' boys and zero evidence to think they'd have any kind of sniper marksman training. Just because he's carrying a sniper rifle doesn't mean he's awesome with it, anymore than thinking all those guys with a knife are awesome chefs (LOL WHY CAN'T THEY COOK A PERFECT STEAK, THEY HAVE A FIRE LOL).
 

Reject_666_6

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gromit said:
You could always understand that the OP is not the only opinion ever shared about that level, you snarky fuck.

It's the only correct opinion, though, especially since all disagreeing posts here (including yours) are full of lame excuses, including things like that the NSF are a bunch of inept amateurs on purpose (they're not) or that it's supposed to be a tutorial mission (it's not).
 

sea

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Liberty Island might well be the best part of Deus Ex because of how effectively it serves as a microcosm of its gameplay. There are a lot of logical options available, hidden areas, a few NPCs to talk to that provide you an advantage, etc. and the game rewards you for taking those routes. Other levels do some stuff better (the warehouse in Hell's Kitchen) but I think Liberty Island really just encapsulates all the good stuff right then and there.

Also, for people complaining about it throwing you in the deep end: there's a well-made tutorial section before the first level, which teaches you the basics of combat, stealth, weaponry, etc. and then ends with a test of your skills. Unless that just stopped existing for some reason.
 

Reject_666_6

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Also remember, the thing being criticised here is enemy placement and tactics, not level design. I agree as much as the next guy that it's a very good level and a taste of what the whole game is like.
 
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waywardOne said:
You don't just deploy snipers because you feel like it. JCD had full military training and wouldn't hit shit from any height at LI because his skill still sucks. What makes people think the NSF is some kind of elite merc group? There's evidence all around they're merely yokels and good ol' boys and zero evidence to think they'd have any kind of sniper marksman training. Just because he's carrying a sniper rifle doesn't mean he's awesome with it, anymore than thinking all those guys with a knife are awesome chefs (LOL WHY CAN'T THEY COOK A PERFECT STEAK, THEY HAVE A FIRE LOL).

The real explanation, of course, is that it is a tutorial level, and one that is already somewhat unforgiving compared to Doom/Quake's early game (remember - despite the prior System Shock games, neither were big hits, so Deus Ex was made with Doom/Quake players in mind, as well as Thief and crpg gamers - it's why I keep saying that a Deus Ex style game could easily be marketed to modern Mass Effect and FO3 fans, as it has a very simple base, with level design and slowly introduced features (the slow doling out of augs) providing most of the complexity). As it is, they had the problem of Quake players wondering why their accuracy was off, or trying to run and gun and getting quickly owned. Of course, once you get the hang of it, the level is laughably easy - and that's exactly how a first combat level SHOULD be, i.e. a few reloads as you make obvious mistakes in your approach, but then easy once you get the right feel for it, letting you know how to approach the game in general.

A sniper with actual sniping skill at the top of the tower would have made it a challenging level. Fine if it was a bit later in the game, but not when you're easing players into the game, where those players might be Quake fans unused to the realistic accuracy, or crpg players who have zero FPS skills. You MIGHT have put a sniper in the tower, given him low-to-zero skill, and have one of the UNATCO guys say 'reports say there's at least one sniper in that tower, but these guys are strictly amateurs, even by NSF standards - just don't stay too long in the open and you'll be fine'. A sniper with zero-to-low skill would be unlikely to hit the player, but might pepper around and occasionally take off damage if you stay completely still. But then I'm guessing it wasn't worth the engine difficulties to have a non-effective sniper (I doubt the engine could handle the sniper being up the top of the tower - he'd have to be just one floor up, perhaps covering the climable boxes).

As for the AI generally (lack of awareness despite oncoming invasion), we DO get nostalgic sometimes - DE does many things better than DE:HR, but AI is certainly not one of them.

If you want an in-game explanation for the NSF's crapness, it's made clear that they're an amateur rabble, and that the ones you encounter early are amateur even by their standards - the 'leader' under the subway even says as much, and says that he's an accountant in his day-job.

In the game's intro, Simons doesn't even mention the NSF (and if that guy was running things instead of page, the Dentons would have been wtfpwned - EVERY SINGLE THING that goes the player's way is foreseen by Simons and blown off as needless paranoia by Page :D ) - he's worried about X51, the illuminati, Paul Denton, the Triads, even the Paris resistance fighters, but not the NSF.

One neat detail comes up later in the game, which I always liked as a nice little attention to detail. When you're fighting the NSF, they're allied with Tracer Tong (through Paul). VERY late in the piece, once Helios has started to make its move and taken over government of China/Hong Kong, the US Military has officially defied UNATCO and its pawns in the US government to take the fight to MI-5 (showing that Page's dream of a quiet take over would never have worked anyway - when it comes to silent takeovers, he's really just an amateur compared to the illuminati) etc....you can find a stored communication revealing that the Illuminati has actually infiltrated and taken over the NSF in Paul's absence, and sometime during the Area 51 events has started to trigger them as their 'cover army'. Always liked that bit - all shows that Page's plans were always going to fail. He might have succeeded in taking over the world, but it was always going to be through a war against 2 or 3 formidable opponents (Illuminati, Helios and US Government) - i.e. he was going to cause WW3 (one based on viral warfare and genetically modified terrors) and destroy the world, not be its 'god and saviour'. Actually makes me wonder whether MCA took inspiration from that for AP.
 

Wyrmlord

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Humanity has risen! said:
Liberty Island was by far the best level in the game.

I wish I could go back to playing it for the first time.
When you played it the first time, did you find it creepy when you saw that all the NSF soldiers you avoided killing had been killed anyway? Or did you have that queasy feeling about the whole situation when NSF soldiers said they were untrained and felt unready for the siege they were undergoing?

I remember it all left me quite baffled and surprised. Two UNATCO folks (Paul and Alex) tell me they want it clean and safe, but the soldiers were under the imperative to slaughter them all. My first thought was, "Did UNATCO do all this just to toy with poorly trained pseudo-terrorists before indiscriminately killing them?"

Deus Ex is one of the few games to really bring that feeling of confusion and wariness of what is going on the first time you play it. You are slowly fed hints that you are working for a morally dubious agency. The strongest impact it had was when (the first time) I shot Juan Lebedev dead under extralegal orders and went back to have Gunther tell me that Paul Denton must be hunted down and killed for treason. The whole affair left you feeling awful about it all afterwards, even with the fat bonus received for doing all that. Few games achieve a strong feeling like that.
 

Infinitron

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Azrael the cat said:
One neat detail comes up later in the game, which I always liked as a nice little attention to detail. When you're fighting the NSF, they're allied with Tracer Tong (through Paul). VERY late in the piece, once Helios has started to make its move and taken over government of China/Hong Kong, the US Military has officially defied UNATCO and its pawns in the US government to take the fight to MI-5 (showing that Page's dream of a quiet take over would never have worked anyway - when it comes to silent takeovers, he's really just an amateur compared to the illuminati) etc....you can find a stored communication revealing that the Illuminati has actually infiltrated and taken over the NSF in Paul's absence, and sometime during the Area 51 events has started to trigger them as their 'cover army'. Always liked that bit - all shows that Page's plans were always going to fail. He might have succeeded in taking over the world, but it was always going to be through a war against 2 or 3 formidable opponents (Illuminati, Helios and US Government) - i.e. he was going to cause WW3 (one based on viral warfare and genetically modified terrors) and destroy the world, not be its 'god and saviour'. Actually makes me wonder whether MCA took inspiration from that for AP.

I don't remember an email. Morgan Everett outright tells you over your infolink that he's using NSF troops in Paris, that he's "loaned" over from the United States.

Other Illuminati resistance ops in Deus Ex:
- Silhouette - funded by Beth Duclare before her assassination, supported by her daughter who seems a bit naive about what her mother was.
- Harley Filben - deep cover agent who prophetically helps JC out, even at the beginning when he's still working for the enemy. Actually I think the Filben character is a sort of a joke on the 'homeless guy who is more than he seems' cliche in spy/conspiracy fiction.
- Ridley - the scientist who triggers the System Shock-esque slaughter in the Ocean Lab, is an undercover Illuminati agent, killed just before you arrive, alas. One of my favorite subplots in the game.
 

waywardOne

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Infinitron said:
- Harley Filben - deep cover agent who prophetically helps JC out, even at the beginning when he's still working for the enemy. Actually I think the Filben character is a sort of a joke on the 'homeless guy who is more than he seems' cliche in spy/conspiracy fiction.

I like to pretend he keeps popping up throughout the game with variations on "Oh, didn't I tell you? I don't really work for <faction z>; I'm undercover for <faction z-1>." The first time I played I thought that Howard Strong was another HF persona.
 

Captain Shrek

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Infinitron said:
No excuse for the NSF's ineptitude, but the ingame explanation is that someone has decided that the Liberty Island situation is to be a field test for UNATCO's newest augmented agent (you).

You should realize that back in 2000, the military shooter genre hadn't yet fully solidified the connection between first person shooter games and real-life tactics. It was the awkward transition period between Doom/Quake and Call of Duty, when Half-Life's HECU grunts were considered to be the most super-realistic troops ever seen in a game.

Not to mention level 1 player entering the game first time will no longer be able to go all Rambo on NSF.
 

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