Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Defense of the Decline

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Infinitron, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Infinitron RPG Codex Staff Patron

    Infinitron
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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
    The RPS commenter "ffordesoon" (who also posts on the Wasteland 2 forums) is an apologist for decline, but he is pretty articulate. Let's see how the Codex handles this wall of text:

    http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/201...ernity-old-school-innovation/#comment-1102199

    MMXI Brofists this.
  2. Captain Shrek Orbis non-sufficit Dumbfuck

    Captain Shrek
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    There you go. I think I found the problem.
  3. Crooked Bee Nyadmin

    Crooked Bee
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    Codex 2014 MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
    The :decline: of defense, more like.
    Grunker, Jaesun and Infinitron Brofist this.
  4. Excidium P. banal

    Excidium
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    Like I'm reading all that shit. I'm not Wizardry, I'm completely desensitized to RPS retardation.
  5. Ion Prothon II Liturgist

    Ion Prothon II
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    How can we rationally handle a writing of a madman.
  6. JarlFrank Великий князь Patron

    JarlFrank
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    :mob:[​IMG]
  7. Surf Solar cannot into womynz

    Surf Solar
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    Why do you post tl;dr posts so often, especially when the author is such a retard like in this case
  8. Daemongar Erudite Patron

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    The :decline: of the term "articulate" is more like it.
  9. Cosmo Savant

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    This may be articulate, but this is still bullshit.
    The main point he misses is just the clash of two largely irreconcilable logics in today's bastardized CRPGs :
    - first one follows the natural evolution of RPGs from their wargame roots, regularly forcing time to a standstill and enabling you to control a multitude of things via menus ; the player must be overlooking the action and thus is partly exterior to it ;
    - second one was imported from the FPS and is is a logic of immersion and simultaneity : everything must be doable quickly and on the spot, and accessible via hud or shortcut so as not to break the "first person" illusion ;

    So the FPS logic is not superior from the get go. It's just that, as CRPGs depend heavily on menus and different interfaces, the clunckiness and technical limitations of old weigh all the more on them. Every type of game in the early 90s had a primitive interface and gave visual feedback compared to today's market standards. But FPSs possess the advantage of having been born to provide immediate immersion, so how is that a surprise that they feel less cluncky ?! That's what made them FPSs for fuck's sake !!
  10. MMXI Prestigious Gentleman Prophet

    MMXI
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    Why did you alert me? I'm not Wizardry on Rock Paper Shotgun.




    I'm Infinitron.
    Jaesun and Infinitron Brofist this.
  11. Infinitron RPG Codex Staff Patron

    Infinitron
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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
  12. Grimlorn Augur

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    "The decline of RPGs has taught devs what not to do when designing RPGs, therefore it has contributed to the incline."

    Touche.
  13. Daemongar Erudite Patron

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    On point by point:
    1. This first point is just wrong. RPG's were never traditional "memory hogs." It is only a recent development that RPG's become greater graphics programs. IE games being too graphic intensive or memory intensive? It loads zone by zone, this would be ideal for consoles. The system requirements for Baldur's Gate are 166 MHz CPU and 16MB of RAM and a 2MB video card. The requirements for KOTOR (which came out 5 years later) are more significant and have more graphically intensive zones.

    2. This whole point is about the need for cleaner interfaces to enhance action rpgs. This is shit. He's comparing the interfaces of standard rpg's with action rpgs, and saying that all rpgs need sleeker action rpgs interfaces to be gooder. This is so poorly written, he could mean something else, but his depth of rpg knowledge seems limited to his *impression* of PC rpgs, and a working knowledge of console rpgs. He never specifically mentions playing a PC rpg other than "WOW" but he knows what people don't like about them.

    3. Yeah, WOW created crafting and epic loot. Asshole.
  14. Sabriana Learned

    Sabriana
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    What? Which ones? And in which way are they more meaningful?

    Perhaps that dude should play more cRPG's like FO1 & 2, ToEE, M&M. And perhaps he should read up on how the pen & paper RPG's work. You know, with TB, die rolls, etc. I'm not even talking about real C&C vs the illusion of them which seems to be a staple in 'modern' RPG hybrids. He seems to be a bit confused about things.

    Ah, what can I say. When someone holds up Oblivion and WoW as shining examples of the new shit, and gets 'intimidated by BG 1', perhaps the pew-pews are best for them.
  15. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    He's not talking about RAM (although consoles do have amazingly shitty RAM in every generation) but just flat out memory. Baldur's Gate takes up 5 fucking CD's. You can't put that shit on a console. Well, maybe if you're fucking Square. But that's with an install. God only knows how many discs it would take to run the entire game on the fly, without having anything installed. 7 discs? 10? Admittedly half of this shit is just cinematics. But having to swap disks twice every time a cutscene happens wouldn't be a good option either.
  16. Daemongar Erudite Patron

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    I don't want to kill a good rant, but he pointed out the comparison playing both games on an Xbox. The Xbox had a DVD, which holds more space than 5 CD's, and it also had a hard drive (albeit small.) Programmatically, it could be more difficult to hold BG in memory than KOTOR, but I have some doubts.
  17. Damned Registrations Prestigious Gentleman Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist

    Damned Registrations
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    But as you pointed out, Baldur's Gate is 5 years older. It's console equivalent would be a playstation. And while there were multi disc games (some as long as 4) people always bitched about the disc swapping, and they tended to be more expensive. And a playstation has no hard drive.

    His point was that KOTOR was 'dumbed down' to take up less memory overall to allow for a release on the Xbox, which could not have handled a next generation equivalent of BG. Or at least that this is the perception people have, which he is arguing isn't such a big deal (he doesn't mind the tiny areas and smaller overall game.)
  18. sser Magister

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    This guy is an idiot. The "decline" is in the gameplay. KOTOR has tiny areas because of the gameplay designs, not because of some graphical limitations. For fuckssake, he brings up Morrowind moments after making this statement. Morrowind was a large game that could be played on the Xbox, same as KOTOR. The Xbox 360 has Oblivion, Divinity II, Risen, etc. So why is Mass Effect 2 a linear corridor with chest-high boxes everywhere? Because it's designed that way.
    oscar Brofists this.
  19. Infinitron RPG Codex Staff Patron

    Infinitron
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    Codex 2012 Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
    Hmm, I don't know. I'm pretty sure the technology Bethesda uses to put huge open worlds on consoles come with some sort of tradeoff. Perhaps somebody with actual engine knowledge would know more.
  20. Roguey Magister

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    It's engine-related and how they handle streaming content and NPCs and junk. Like the water planet in KOTOR is the biggest hub which makes it very memory-intensive and they had to make massive cuts to make it work.
  21. wormix Learned Patron

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    Codex 2012 Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera
    Don't agree at all. Not bothering to break down why.

    Defending console RPGs because they are gateway RPGs for non-RPG players? :eek:
    Bulba and Jaesun Brofist this.
  22. dnf Dumbfuck! Dumbfuck

    dnf
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    I hate this kind of argument. They saved the CRPG genre by making shitty games and going backwards in terms of mechanics. Yup, suck it down old timers
  23. DalekFlay Arcane Patron

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    Doesn't it all still boil down to massive changes, which means they are not the games they were before by default, and kickstarters meant to be in the pre-change style? How can incorporating some of the changes of the last 10 years, incline or decline, be a good thing for projects which focus on "hey we're making games like they were 10 years ago."

    You can rant all you like about fear of change and incline vs. decline but at the end of the day games sold as "like before" should be like before.
    Giauz Ragnacock Brofists this.
  24. Hobo Elf Magister

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    From number 3 about WoW,

    This is as far as I got. I guess EQ never happened? Hell, even DAoC had more interesting loot than WoW could ever hope to have. They had epic artifacts that gained levels and got "personalities" the stronger they got.

    All in all this is just another newfag who started playing video games last week and is making assumptions based on his limited views, but without any knowledge on the actual history of video games.
    sea Brofists this.
  25. Telengard Savant

    Telengard
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    Sidestepping the rest-anywhere/auto-regenerative health, removal of death, awesome button, replacement of tactical decision making with reactive action taking, and the replacement of tactical options with comic-book style powers, all of which he side-stepped, and just going with his points:

    1. Illogical. Smaller levels don't enforce superior level design. People can copy/paste small levels just as easily as they can large levels. Nor does having small levels actually mean that someone will put good design ideas into that small space - especially if they don't have any good ideas to begin with. Nor did it prevent developers from having quests that take place across a wide area - it just means you load the quest giver area, then load the general area, then load the transition area, then load the quest completion area, and then do it all again in reverse on your way back.

    2. Did controllers contribute to the dumbing down because of their inability to navigate menus? Is that why we have blood spurt animations instead of a text box stating how much damage was done? Do pretty pictures tell you more about what the state of what is happening is than text and numbers? Actually, they provide the same exact information, just in a different way. So, it's the same. It's the level of detail of that information and how it is used that determines whether something is dumb, not how that information is expressed. And yet, how does any of this have anything to do with the gamepad? Whether half the screen is devoted to non-interactive information or all info is told through animation, what does the controller have to do with it?

    3. Ignorance is bliss. I was both a body sculptor and an architect in Star Wars Galaxies (2000). And that's by no means the first MMORPG to use crafting, just the one of the few that I played with the largest and most diverse suite of crafting tools. But that should even be beside the point. MMORPG doesn't have some god-given exclusive right to crafting, nor were they the first to use it. Maybe, though, they were first to let you dress your avatar up pretty and show yourself off to a large number of other people. And if that's what's really important...

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