KickStarter Dead State Pre-Release Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Infinitron]

Almost everyone, including you and me. We've all pretty much fallen into the "overall experience" trap, the "the sum of all these shitty parts make for a great game!" trap. These consensuses have poisoned the industry to keep delivering more of this incomplete stuff instead of striving for greater results where all the edges and corners are great. For the most part, they've chosen to take combat away from the spotlights to focus on something else, like exploration or story, as it's believed that these things are of a more universal appeal than mechanics, especially story.

Like I said, I don't think this is an entirely correct description of Codexian tastes nowadays.

Meanwhile, if you dare to say that Dead State should get inspiration from JA2's combat system to become a better game, you're called out as a gigantic combatfag moron with double standards and zero tolerance to story driven RPGs. Yeah, keep going like that, perhaps by 2100 we'll get one or maybe two "complete package" RPGs where none of the major aspects are a failure.

I think more people are annoyed by your complaints about graphics than about the combat. The whole "WHY DOES IT LOOK LIKE NWN???" thing does have a tendency to inspire people to complain about stuff, it seems. "This game is 3D, so terribly 3D that I'm gonna complain about combat now and also how everything was better back in the 80s."

You might just get your "complete package" someday - maybe in the second wave of Kickstarter projects. Maybe even in the first wave with Pillars of Eternity, if Roguey is to be believed. But it won't be from games with Dead State's budget, that's for sure.

 

[Excidium]

KOTC have shit setting, story and graphics but great combat = great crpg.
PST have shit combat but great story, setting and graphics = shit crpg
Yes, no double standards.

That's why PST is #1 CRPG and KOTC is #27 according to the hivemind huh

Exactly! And if previously some developers have failed to blend together these things, it isn't because it's impossible.

Some people have concluded that it's absolutely impossible to have JA2 combat quality with FO2 levels of openness and possibilities, for example, but it's obviously not. Yet, more and more people eat shit up that manage to pass with the excuse that it has one or two strong aspects in favor of the rest of the game. The sad part is that combat system, the core of an RPG from which everything else branches, is more than often part of this ignored "rest of the game" portion.

There are quite a lot of games that managed to be excellent on everything they've done, including stuff that isn't basic at all, like SMAC. The RPG crowd is full of apologists that play games with shitty combat thinking that's how it naturally should be in favor of a "great overall experience". A product of a shitty industry that constantly fails to deliver a complete package. You buy a full body statue and praise it even after having received only its legs.

It's not impossible, but it is impossible to do for 400k.

Seriously? That's a lot of money for an RPG by a handful of people without even a physical office to run. Move somewhere with lower living costs.

 

[tuluse]

That's why PST is #1 CRPG and KOTC is #27 according to the hivemind huh


Seriously? That's a lot of money for an RPG by a handful of people without even a physical office to run. Move somewhere with lower living costs.

It takes more than a handfull of people to make JA2.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/jagged-alliance-2/credits

JA2 had 10 people doing programming alone.

 

[Infinitron]

That's why PST is #1 CRPG and KOTC is #27 according to the hivemind huh

27 is actually pretty damn high for an obscure indie though. Where would it have ranked among the Black Isle/Troika-centric Codex of 2005?

Perhaps we should go back and examine rankings from those days.

 

[Gord]

I've more the impression that there's a large amount of Codexers that think that unless something is absolutely fabulously great, it's automatically utter shit.

Well, keep playing the few games that get a pass due to either objectively being great, or simply rose-tinted glasses.

Personally I can live with playing good-for-what-it-is games once in a while, so I can get some fun out of those less-than-perfect games, as well.

 

[likaq]

KOTC was also created by 1 man in his spare time, just for entertainment and is butt ugly compared to stasis. But I don't see Spellcaster writing 'KOTC look like uninspired crap' .
Hypocrisy?

TOEE is mostly criticized for encounter design not for story or setting or non-combat gameplay ( yes, i know there is no such thing like non-combat gameplay, you don't need paging mondblut to tell me that ).

Wizardry games, kotc and pretty much every combatfag games are never criticized for their shit stories, shit settings, shit 'insert something other than combat that is shit' but there are considered 'complete packages'.

But if game x have not so great combat = oh, decline and shit.

If this is not double standard i don't know what is.

 

[Excidium]

That's why PST is #1 CRPG and KOTC is #27 according to the hivemind huh


Seriously? That's a lot of money for an RPG by a handful of people without even a physical office to run. Move somewhere with lower living costs.

It takes more than a handfull of people to make JA2.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/windows/jagged-alliance-2/credits

JA2 had 10 people doing programming alone.

Which was over a decade ago, and even then, 10 programmers is p. absurd.

 

[mondblut]

A good CRPG story doesn't stand in the way of any of that, in fact it is built around that.

Oh? Name one. A story that does not enforce requirements on party composition, does not arbitrarily limit the freedom of movement around the gaming world and interaction with it, and yet is "good" by any accounts.

Taking PST as an example of good story is just dumb

...disregard the above. It is clearly a time for "but what's a 'good story'" investigation, for a change.

it's certainly great to read but for an RPG it's garbage.

Any story for an RPG, or indeed for any kind of game that is not a passive consumption of a narrative (read "adventure games") is, in the end, garbage. A game begins where the story ends, and the other way around. I know of no exceptions, and the occasional sad pathetic attempts to integrate "gaming" into dialogues or cutscenes or whatever is used to spoonfeed some story as the game is put on a pause, only prove the rule.

 

[tuluse]

Which was over a decade ago, and even then, 10 programmers is p. absurd.

If that was true, I think we'd see a lot more JA2 clones around.

Turns out making complex systems is hard and it takes time and people, which costs money.

 

[Excidium]

A good CRPG story doesn't stand in the way of any of that, in fact it is built around that.

Oh? Name one. A story that does not enforce requirements on party composition, does not arbitrarily limit freedom of exploration, and yet is "good" by any accounts.

Fallout, Ultima Underworld, Gothic, Pool of Radiance are some examples.

Taking PST as an example of good story is just dumb

...disregard the above. It is clearly a time for "but what's a 'good story'" investigation, for a change.

A good story is one that comes to existance like a GM creating encounters and situations that develop as the player explores and interacts with the game on his own accord.

it's certainly great to read but for an RPG it's garbage.

Any story for an RPG, or indeed for any kind of game that is not a passive consumption of a narrative (read "adventure games") is, in the end, garbage. A game begins where the story ends, and the other way around. I know of no exceptions, and the occasional sad pathetic attempts to integrate "gaming" into dialogues or cutscenes or whatever is used to spoonfeed some story as the game is put on a pause, only prove the rule.

That's because you have the same disconnected notion of story that storyfags have. RPGs aren't novels.

 

[Excidium]

Which was over a decade ago, and even then, 10 programmers is p. absurd.

If that was true, I think we'd see a lot more JA2 clones around.

Turns out making complex systems is hard and it takes time and people, which costs money.

More like as you can see from this thread most people don't care about it, and if the consumer doesn't care about original and complex systems that take work to implement, why should developers? Let's just make another D&D (if fantasy) or Fallout (if not) clone.

 

[tuluse]

More like as you can see from this thread most people don't care about it, and if the consumer doesn't care about original and complex systems that take work to implement, why should developers? Let's just make another D&D (if fantasy) or Fallout (if not) clone.

Modern RPGs don't even do that.

Does Skyrim remind you of D&D or Fallout? How about Mass Effect?

 

[Excidium]

AAA RPGs are a whole another story. Why the hell are you even bringing them up?

 

[set]

That's why PST is #1 CRPG and KOTC is #27 according to the hivemind huh

27 is actually pretty damn high for an obscure indie though. Where would it have ranked among the Black Isle/Troika-centric Codex of 2005?

Perhaps we should go back and examine rankings from those days.

The issue is that, today, it is easy for some hackjob to throw together something in Unity and call it a game. People are craving more "substance" their games - not just anyone can write a good story, but it's comparatively easy to slap some dialogue into a prebuilt game engine and try to sell it as a game. In my mind, games like The Walking Dead and The Stanley Parable aren't games. Yes, yes, we can pedantically say they are games, because they have some player input and qualiities that trivially define them as games, but fuck, who wants to play a game where the game plays itself? That's called a bloody movie.

Right now, people (as in, the niche consumer) want gameplay. If you don't care about gameplay, you can get shit by the truckloads on the iOS, 360 or even the PC now. If you want to experience game systems designed to offer something... you have to travel pretty far. I think people right now are more appreciative of developers' efforts in that field. And when all a "good game" can claim for its hype today is its story, atmosphere, music or graphics... there's a disconnect. I paly games for the gameplay, I am entertained by the gameplay, even if I do enjoy the other elements that make games fun/good.

It's definitely harder to produce balanced and invigorating game systems, than it is to present a linear, gratuitious story with text and pictures.

 

[Roguey]

So, every crpg should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2 now?
Even games that are not about combat?
ohwow.gif

Why is ok to say "crpg that is not about combat should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2" but not ok to say "every combat-centric crpg should have story on par with PST" ?
Double standards at its finest.

Every time I see post like games from 80's looks better than DS,AOD, W2, D:OS etc I'm losing faith in humanity.

The things you do in Dead State:
Talk to people (contributes to strategic gameplay)
Manage shelter (strategic gameplay)
Explore world/ kill and loot things (tactical gameplay)

Wanting the scope/breadth of JA2 is asking too much, but it isn't to want all those things to be done well. Josh Sawyer could design a better system for a zombie game with a comparable budget. Brian is a narrative designer, and I'm not entirely sure what Annie's done other than making weapons and armor in the NWN2 toolset, writing for Storm of Zehir and the canned Alpha Protocol, and MMO shit.

Given their strengths and capabilities, Dead State should have been The Walking Dead, but well, ya snooze ya lose.

 

[mondblut]

Fallout, Ultima Underworld, Pool of Radiance are some examples.

They... had a story?

Gothic,

Riiight. Pregen character, "chapters" unlocking areas you couldn't visit before, it's a mighty fine example of story crippling gameplay. Even fucking itemization (getting armor that would allow to survive 10 steps away from the permitted road... then 20... then 30...) was story-locked. Finding a less railroaded and story-raped game is not impossible, but I'd have to think for a while to name just a few

A good story is one that comes to existance like a GM creating encounters and situations that develop as the player explores and interacts with the game on his own accord.

In other words, one that barely exists.

That's because you have the same disconnected notion of story that storyfags have. RPGs aren't novels.

They aren't, and I hope they stay that way.

 

[Excidium]

Fallout, Ultima Underworld, Pool of Radiance are some examples.

They... had a story?

Yes? If you played them you could describe what you did and went through from the basic premise stabilished in the documents/start of the game to the final moments. The game provides the shit for you to do, you go and do that shit, that forms a story.

Gothic,

Riiight. Pregen character, "chapters" unlocking areas you couldn't visit before, it's a mighty fine example of story crippling gameplay. Even fucking itemization (getting armor that would allow to survive 10 steps away from the permitted road... then 20... then 30...) was story-locked. Finding a less railroaded and story-raped game is not impossible, but I'd have to think for a while to name just a few

It isn't much worse than your average from zero to hero CRPGs, and with some smart tactics you can certainly get through stuff that is much harder. Pregen character is hardly relevant considering gothic dude starts as a completely blank slate, without even a background. I just like Gothic's prison setting too much so fuck you.

A good story is one that comes to existance like a GM creating encounters and situations that develop as the player explores and interacts with the game on his own accord.

In other words, one that barely exists.

A story always exists, playing the game is experiencing the fucking story. You think story = something like super-scripted branching CYOA, which makes you look retarded as fuck.

 

[set]

The concept that player-story and in-game-story are mutually exclusive entities is something that has been propogated by hacks in the industry who wish they were movie directors or best selling authors.

 

[tuluse]

The things you do in Dead State:
Talk to people (contributes to strategic gameplay)
Manage shelter (strategic gameplay)
Explore world/ kill and loot things (tactical gameplay)

Wanting the scope/breadth of JA2 is asking too much, but it isn't to want all those things to be done well. Josh Sawyer could design a better system for a zombie game with a comparable budget. Brian is a narrative designer, and I'm not entirely sure what Annie's done other than making weapons and armor in the NWN2 toolset, writing for Storm of Zehir and the canned Alpha Protocol, and MMO shit.

Given their strengths and capabilities, Dead State should have been The Walking Dead, but well, ya snooze ya lose.

I get the impression that the Mitsodas are not interested in a strictly pick choice -> see consequence game. They wanted to have some more game elements in there.

However, it would be interesting to see an extremely abstracted version of Dead State. Something more like King of the Dragon Pass, but with personality management and scripted NPCs instead of randomly generated ones.

 

[tuluse]

AAA RPGs are a whole another story. Why the hell are you even bringing them up?

There hasn't been a mid-range RPG industry since about 2005. There have been only AAA games, pseudo AAA games (Obsidian and CD Project), and super cheap indie trash, and I guess the occasional Euro shovelware that I've totally ignored.

If someone was actually making competent Fallout clones, that would be a huge improvement over the current situation. It would also mean someday, developers would stumble across good RPG design through sheer repetitions.

Now to bring this back to Dead State. JA2 is fucking complex. It was a AAA title when it was made. It had a large development team and cost millions of dollars to make. If you thought Dead State being made by a tiny team, on a shoe string budget, by essentially amateurs, was going to rival it, well I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. It was always going to have a more simple system than that. However, simple doesn't have to mean bad.

 

[Excidium]

Now to bring this back to Dead State. JA2 is fucking complex. It was a AAA title when it was made. It had a large development team and cost millions of dollars to make. If you thought Dead State being made by a tiny team, on a shoe string budget, by essentially amateurs, was going to rival it, well I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you. It was always going to have a more simple system than that. However, simple doesn't have to mean bad.

There's just 15 years separating both games.

 

[Doctor Sbaitso]

Interesting Convo. Carry on.

 

[Haba]

If there isn't going to be JA2-level tactical gameplay, at least make the mechanics that are currently implemented work well. Like the noise meter. There ought to be some kind of visualization in the game of what that is actually doing, like an audible radius. As it is it's mostly guesswork, you have no idea if the 3 zombies right outside the diner in the hardware zone location can hear the fighting inside, because it's not obvious to the player whether 1 db = 1 square, how the game deals with diagonals etc, do closed doors and walls matter, and the manual doesn't explain either.

You know, that "guesswork" part is usually called "playing the game".

Not to mention how absurd it'd be to streamline the danger of making noise into "if I shoot here, it will be 100% safe". This is why we can't have good things any more.

 

[tuluse]

You know, that "guesswork" part is usually called "playing the game".

Not to mention how absurd it'd be to streamline the danger of making noise into "if I shoot here, it will be 100% safe". This is why we can't have good things any more.

it's a little more complex than just near by zombies, fyi. More zombies will spawn at the edges of the map if you make enough noise.

 

[Roguey]

I get the impression that the Mitsodas are not interested in a strictly pick choice -> see consequence game. They wanted to have some more game elements in there.

They should have had a systems designer as as stretch goal then.