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KickStarter Dead State Pre-Release Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
For others that played - are there more than 8 (+shelter) locations in the demo? I've been trying to find more, but so far it's just been the 8 in immediate vicinity of the shelter.
I've finished the EA demo and found 9 locations (+ shelter). Haven't bothered to find more than that though.
Can you show a screenie of the map, perhaps, or tell where the 9th location is? (Presumably further away from the shelter)
 

imweasel

Guest
For others that played - are there more than 8 (+shelter) locations in the demo? I've been trying to find more, but so far it's just been the 8 in immediate vicinity of the shelter.
I've finished the EA demo and found 9 locations (+ shelter). Haven't bothered to find more than that though.
Can you show a screenie of the map, perhaps, or tell where the 9th location is? (Presumably further away from the shelter)
nuyp3.jpg
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
For others that played - are there more than 8 (+shelter) locations in the demo? I've been trying to find more, but so far it's just been the 8 in immediate vicinity of the shelter.
I've finished the EA demo and found 9 locations (+ shelter). Haven't bothered to find more than that though.
Can you show a screenie of the map, perhaps, or tell where the 9th location is? (Presumably further away from the shelter)
nuyp3.jpg
Thanks, was that northern market.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I think Dead State's budget is probably 1/10 what JA2 was, maybe even less. Yeah, good art costs money.

And actually, the JA2 combat system is probably too complex to be implemented on this budget.

Some kind of reaction attacks ala X-Com would be nice though.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,823
Combat isnt the point of dead state.
I agree it looks like crap tho, but much better than we were shown months before and with a lot of room to improve.
We will see, passing judgement on a EA is kinda retarded, you can just give them constructive criticism and hope they listen.
 

set

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
940
Well, Path of Exile has many of the same issues it did at launch, but the game is nothing like it was when it first started its CB in '11. Games can and do change, if the developers care and get enough money.

But both happening? And in this specific instance? Unlikely.

It would probably cost $2M to get a game like Dead State in the right state of being. Two years of constant development.
 

likaq

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,198
So, every crpg should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2 now?
Even games that are not about combat?
ohwow.gif

Why is ok to say "crpg that is not about combat should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2" but not ok to say "every combat-centric crpg should have story on par with PST" ?
Double standards at its finest.

Every time I see post like games from 80's looks better than DS,AOD, W2, D:OS etc I'm losing faith in humanity.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
We will see, passing judgement on a EA is kinda retarded, you can just give them constructive criticism and hope they listen.
Sorry but I don't buy this - not after buying it millions of times throughout the years only to see disappointment at the end, every single time. And this is not a pessimistic stance, it's a fact: don't be fooled, shit betas, alphas and early accesses in general won't miraculously turn into a great game once it's released. How many times have you played a shitty beta that, when released, you played again and thought "wow, they actually solved the problems and this is now very good!" ?

It surprises me how the "fuck off, it's the beta, it'll be much better on 1.0" argument is still alive on this day and age, after 0 examples that went like that, with the partial exception being M&M X.

First of all, the kind of "betas" that AAAs hand out aren't really betas. They're release candidate demos. Kickstarter is introducing gamers to REAL betas, and many of them Just. Can't. Handle. It. They should avoid them like the plague.

Second, Dead State Early Access isn't a beta. It may not even be alpha.
 

set

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2013
Messages
940
So, every crpg should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2 now?
Even games that are not about combat?
ohwow.gif

Why is ok to say "crpg that is not about combat should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2" but not ok to say "every combat-centric crpg should have story on par with PST" ?
Hypocrisy at its finest.

Every time I see post like games from 80's looks better than DS,AOD, W2, D:OS etc I'm losing faith in humanity.

I haven't been closely following the development of Dead State, but basic AI for avoiding LOS abuse was in Fallout. It's something you kind of need to preserve the player's 'immurshun', a thing even players only interested in story care about. It should already be in the game.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I haven't been closely following the development of Dead State, but basic AI for avoiding LOS abuse was in Fallout. It's something you kind of need to preserve the player's 'immurshun', a thing even players only interested in story care about. It should already be in the game.
Dude, it's clearly a bug they're going to fix. Oscar posted not 30 minutes ago that they're going to fix it.
 

likaq

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,198
So, every crpg should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2 now?
Even games that are not about combat?
ohwow.gif

Why is ok to say "crpg that is not about combat should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2" but not ok to say "every combat-centric crpg should have story on par with PST" ?
Hypocrisy at its finest.

Every time I see post like games from 80's looks better than DS,AOD, W2, D:OS etc I'm losing faith in humanity.

I haven't been closely following the development of Dead State, but basic AI for avoiding LOS abuse was in Fallout. It's something you kind of need to preserve the player's 'immurshun', a thing even players only interested in story care about. It should already be in the game.

I agree, but my post was about "Go copy JA2 or X-Com but not Fallout, Jesus fuck"
 

Jedi Exile

Arcanum
Patron
Joined
Oct 10, 2010
Messages
1,177
Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I wonder why people still expect good visuals, great art etc. from a low budget kickstarter game, expecially from the one made by Doublebear (Brian, Annie and a few other guys/girls who also work on AoD - and AoD looks like shit, sorry guys/girls). I wouldn't mind if they used CryEngine, hell yeah, but I think this is a bit unrealistic. Good visuals is something that you can and should expect from Obsidian, but for Doublebear the bar is much lower.
 

imweasel

Guest
The graphics are fine for the game's budget. The clunky UI and that fucking annoying mouse lag need to be improved/fixed though.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,205
Location
Ingrija
Why is ok to say "crpg that is not about combat should have combat on par with tactical combat games like JA2" but not ok to say "every combat-centric crpg should have story on par with PST" ?
Double standards at its finest.
What? Have you ever opened a thread about, say, ToEE? It's all "combat is great, but story/encounter design is shit". No double standards at all.

He does unknowingly make a point, actually. A good story is detrimental to other aspects of a game. You can't have a PST story in a sandbox world where you can go anywhere and do anything you like. You can't have a PST story with a player-created nameless party of 8. If you want freedom of party building and world exploration (and every real RPG player does), you don't want a "story on par with PST" ruining your experience and robbing you of the things you want in the game.

On the other hand, there is no game that could be possibly despoiled by quality combat gameplay. Unless you are a hysterical feminazi who abhors that nasty patriarchal masculine violence, you would always take a game with good combat over a game with bad combat or no combat.

So as long as I live I'll make sure you'll lose more and more faith in humanity. Visuals aren't graphics, and they don't need to be high end to evoke moods and feelings. They're supposed to work to maximize the mechanics of the game, and hand to hand with the sound department to create the best possible window to the game's world. An 80's game may not be as graphically advanced as DS but it should be obvious that it's possible for it to be much more atmospheric and more well presented. Not to mention the adoption of interesting aesthetics that can make it so much more visually engaging than a present day game. Since I've mentioned mondblut, I'd say Celtic Tales (his avatar's game) is more beautiful than a good amount of contemporary 3D strategy games.

Well, the 80s games do suck in graphics department, with very few exceptions. I guess back in the day there weren't real artists employed in the industry, and even as late as in EGA times we had to live with "programmer art" stick-men. Only about 1990 the things displayed on screen began to look like the things they are supposed to portray.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
It's an unfortunate fact that people are content with mediocrity, this whole thing of CYOA "RPG about story" tactical game "RPG about combat" walking simulator "RPG about explorashun" is a disgrace to the genre. A good RPG involves all that and more, if many older CRPGs were better in one aspect than others it's more because they failed than because they didn't even try.

He does unknowingly make a point, actually. A good story is detrimental to other aspects of a game. You can't have a PST story in a sandbox world where you can go anywhere and do anything you like. You can't have a PST story with a player-created nameless party of 8. If you want freedom of party building and world exploration (and every real RPG player does), you don't want a "story on par with PST" ruining your experience and robbing you of the things you want in the game..
A good CRPG story doesn't stand in the way of any of that, in fact it is built around that. Taking PST as an example of good story is just dumb, it's certainly great to read but for an RPG it's garbage.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
I wonder why people still expect good visuals, great art etc. .
No, I don't expect great art but more colour, more shadows and some moody atmosphere. This game look like shit but it isn't because the textures or models (those are fine) but the lighting is completely fucked up. I really hope they are going to do another art pass.
 

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
It's an unfortunate fact that people are content with mediocrity, this whole thing of CYOA "RPG about story" tactical game "RPG about combat" walking simulator "RPG about explorashun" is a disgrace to the genre. A good RPG involves all that and more, if many older CRPGs were better in one aspect than others it's more because they failed than because they didn't even try.

Can you blame developers for wanting to specialize? Many people on the Codex, when confronted with a "generalist" RPG, do nothing but tear it down for being "mediocre".

"By the numbers! Seen it a million times! It's not good at anything!"

People WANT those games that shine at one thing and don't try to do anything else because they can't stop themselves from noticing all the flaws and imperfections that inevitably crop up in any game with a broader focus. I can't believe I have to explain this to you of all people, Mr. "looks p. shitty, looks p. banal".
 
Last edited:

Infinitron

I post news
Staff Member
Joined
Jan 28, 2011
Messages
97,228
Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
The sad part is that combat system, the core of an RPG from which everything else branches, is more than often part of this ignored "rest of the game" portion.

The RPG crowd is full of apologists that play games with shitty combat thinking that's how it naturally should be in favor of a "great overall experience".

Which RPG crowd are you referring to?

If anything, since KotC and now Blackguards, the Codex seems to be enamoured with combat RPGs, while "great overall experiences" are associated with AAA Biothesda mediocrity.

On the other hand, PS:T and Arcanum do still top our charts, so I guess it's a wash.
 
Self-Ejected

Excidium

P. banal
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
13,696
Location
Third World
Infinitron

Generally it does suck, so what can you do? pat the devs on the back and say "good job, you tried" or call them out on it? One would expect people to apply themselves and do better when called on their mistakes instead of admitting incompetence and focusing on one aspect to the detriment of others.

The RPG crowd is full of apologists that play games with shitty combat thinking that's how it naturally should be in favor of a "great overall experience". A product of a shitty industry that constantly fails to deliver a complete package. You buy a full body statue and praise it even after having received only its legs.
:salute:
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
It's an unfortunate fact that people are content with mediocrity, this whole thing of CYOA "RPG about story" tactical game "RPG about combat" walking simulator "RPG about explorashun" is a disgrace to the genre. A good RPG involves all that and more, if many older CRPGs were better in one aspect than others it's more because they failed than because they didn't even try.

Can you blame developers for wanting to specialize? Many people on the Codex, when confronted with a "generalist" RPG, do nothing but tear it down for being "mediocre".

"By the numbers! Seen it a million times! It's not good at anything!"

People WANT those games that shine at one thing and don't try to do anything else because they can't stop themselves from noticing all the flaws that inevitably crop into any game with a broader focus. I can't believe I have to explain this to you of all people, Mr. "looks p. shitty, looks p. banal".
The thing is Blackguards and Knights of the Chalice are specialized RPG, they do one thing very well and that is it. They are specialized titles, Torment wasn't. If Torment was something like Kingdom of the Dragon Pass, I would say it was specialized on story. People say that Torment was specialized on story because it is the only thing good on it but it had lots of shitty fights as well that people like to forget.

I don't think the problems of Torment are just a question of specialization. After seeing Avellone's work later, his lack of understanding of RPG combat mechanics is obvious, the guy is a competent, imaginative and creative writer but he is a writer, that is his thing and that is why all his games have really good stories but shitty gameplay. He didn't liked combat or didn't knew how to do a good combat system so he resorted to the thing he liked to do that is story and he is a pretty good video game writer, it isn't a miracle to why PST was so focused on story. The question is: It had to be that way?

I wouldn't expect for something like Torment to have a terrible deep combat system but that it could had done way better, it could. An unfocused RPG with shallower individal systems is acceptable but one where every other system is shit except the story and the only content worth of playing is the story... I loved the story on Torment like any codexer but I didn't had the will to stand all those shitty fights again, without mentioning that playing as a thief and warrior was completely pointless. I couldn't even call Torment combat system mediocre.
 

likaq

Arcane
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Messages
1,198
When I was writing my previous post I forgot that according to codex hivemind crpg= combat simulator.
How silly of me for wanting something more from this genre.

KOTC have shit setting, story and graphics but great combat = great crpg.
PST have shit combat but great story, setting and graphics = shit crpg
Yes, no double standards.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Exactly! And if previously some developers have failed to blend together these things, it isn't because it's impossible.

Some people have concluded that it's absolutely impossible to have JA2 combat quality with FO2 levels of openness and possibilities, for example, but it's obviously not. Yet, more and more people eat shit up that manage to pass with the excuse that it has one or two strong aspects in favor of the rest of the game. The sad part is that combat system, the core of an RPG from which everything else branches, is more than often part of this ignored "rest of the game" portion.

There are quite a lot of games that managed to be excellent on everything they've done, including stuff that isn't basic at all, like SMAC. The RPG crowd is full of apologists that play games with shitty combat thinking that's how it naturally should be in favor of a "great overall experience". A product of a shitty industry that constantly fails to deliver a complete package. You buy a full body statue and praise it even after having received only its legs.
It's not impossible, but it is impossible to do for 400k.
 

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