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KickStarter Dead State: Reanimated

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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Couple of questions. Are there means of healing yourself at the shelter besides resting? Renee has no options at dialogue at least.
Just tested this. If you have a medical bag equipped and Medical skill >0 you can use the bag just like in the field on "open" wounds.

If you have the Infirmary built, you can also assign a character to the Healing job to make them into a Patient. You also need a Doctor or Nurse assigned to increase the Healing rate of all Patients.

Otherwise, lying around is all you can do.

And what happens to the loot? Everyone moans about some special thing they are craving for. So I go on a trip, find those particular goods, come back, and the items are gone. They are not at the storage. I somehow manage to save one box of chocolates and gave them to the guard, but everything else has disappeared.
There are some items which seem to fit the description of what doods are looking for but are normal, non-special Luxury Items. For example, you find coffee everywhere but you can't give it to Renee because it just gets rolled into your luxury pool, but if you find a special bag of Whole Bean Coffee, that is a special version you can give to her.

That said, it seems like once or twice I found something special and then couldn't find it later, so there may be a bug ... or possibly someone is stealing from the stash. I don't know :)
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
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Messages
35,653
Roguey, please explain (and I actually mean this - not even trolling here, just genuinely confused) what the hell you actually mean by 'cargo cult' when applied to games? You use it all the time, and it even got me to wikipedia it to check that I didn't just have some weird made-up meaning of the term in my head (like my 6-year-old self, who upon reading the Wiz1 manual, thought that the 'ninja' class in the game - in my head, pronounced '9-ja' - was an entirely different entity to those cool asian characters the kids at school whose parents lacked tv-monitoring discipline called ninjas). Wikipedia describes it as: "the belief that various ritualistic acts will lead to a bestowing of material wealth", that combines charismatic figures, traditionalism and (most importantly) a belief that these things will bring an abundance of material goods. This mostly matches my prior understanding of the term, as referring to 'Jesus will make you win the stock market' evangelists and their historical equivalents.

So....what does the term have to do with games, good or bad?

It's the game design version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming

VD himself has said that he didn't go into AoD with the intention of making some weird experimental combat and CYOA thing, but that's what happened on account of his cargo cult approach. A similar thing happened with the Japanese and their attempts to initiate Wizardry and Ultima.

Considering what Roguey finds good "cargo cultist" is probably best therm to describe him.
:hmmm:

I can explain why I like the things I like.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
Yeah finding chocolate but you can't give it as gift because there is actually special chocolate is dumb and should be changed. I can understand this probably had to do something with balance but imo Devs should simply change type of things people want to something rare and distinct instead of something common.

BTW hope it sells enough to see DS2. Concepts in this game are interesting enough to see how it would evolve in next release.
 

Drakron

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
6,326
Actually this is false. Police, nations and such isn't product of our evolution in strict sense. Evolution only armed us with clan relationship concept such as family and close kin. And this is how early humans and primates operated. We didn't have ant like system of power where we were born with roles to fit and concept of colony in our genes.

No, its not.

Animals have concept of territory, they also have we watchers.

Both are simply more complex evolutions of such concepts, the ancient Egyptians had it as well as the Greek City states not to mention Rome ... police forces are simply a evolution of the guy that stand guard and warn if a saber-tooth tiger was going for a midnight snack.
 

DeepOcean

Arcane
Joined
Nov 8, 2012
Messages
7,394
GD stuff.

Don't want to turn this on GD but fuck, I can't resist...its your fault man, your fault. Natural state theories are something borderline unscientific as comparisons with the natural world aren't proof of anything as animals lack a series of abilities that humans have and there weren't cases of true stateless societies as even on the worst cases, there were terrible crisis fucking with everything and there weren't anything the goverment could do anyway, what makes the role of the goverment to keep order quite questionable. Look to Egypt recently, goverment fallen, there was widespread looting as the sociopaths took advantage but it didn't took long for people to form militias to protect their homes. Actually, on many cases on Africa, Latin America, Asia and even Europe, there is a bigger chance of you ending being fucked by your own goverment than by machete rapists. Fuck, here on Brazil, there was a case of looting and alot of people that participated on it felt so guilty about robbing that they called the owner and left things they stolen on the front of the store on the following day .

You can always say but "humans are slaves to their instincts as chimps are" but if that was the case there wouldn't be civilization as no police or goverment can realisticaly really stop people from doing antisocial behavior especially if widespread. Here on Brazil, I could buy a machine gun, get it from the border with Paraguay, cross a river on a boat, aim at a building on the middle of the street and open a few nice holes on it with the police comming later to count the bodies. Fuck, I could order an Ak 47 from the internet and be lucky for it to pass on the 99% of the cargo that isn't inspected like most well connected slum lords do or I could do like some bank robbing roving bands do here of storming the police station with Aks and taking the two police officers as hostage (Yeah , TWO police officers for an entire city) in there and make a party blowing up ATM machines with dynamite.

The true reason why Brazil isn't Mad Max is because brazilians are mostly good people as if you were depend on police... yeah they catch the criminals after the 10th bank they assaulted or 100th person they stolen the wallet and only because they got too greedy like robbing someone ten feet away from a police officer or assaulting a bank on the middle of a police opperation (yeah, see how the criminals respect the brazilian police). By the way, do you know brazilian justice release criminals because there aren't enough prisons? Yeah... that bank robber will pass six years on jail and get out to rob a few more banks before retiring. Brazil isn't the only country who has those problem, most goverments are this shitty and Europe and the USA aren't on the same bullhit because europeans and americnas weren't fools into believing goverments were cool pro order institution and actually tried putting restrictions on it but it seems they are getting as foolish as we latin americans lately.

Goverment is a product of evolution as much as a virus is, it is a highly evolved creature but it has only one function to fuck you on the ass and brainwash you into believing you had an orgasm. (If you really had one, you are totally gay, I'm telling you.)
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,653
That is why i said "cultist" as someone who actually believes in bullshit and he is happy because of that.
Hmm. Since grognard is French for grumblers (so the singular really should be grognon, but this how language mutates and such), I hereby declare myself a jouisseur. Unless someone knows a French term for someone who's the opposite of a grumbler I'd like better.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
No, its not.

Animals have concept of territory, they also have we watchers.

Both are simply more complex evolutions of such concepts, the ancient Egyptians had it as well as the Greek City states not to mention Rome ... police forces are simply a evolution of the guy that stand guard and warn if a saber-tooth tiger was going for a midnight snack.


If you try to speculate that who we are today is just evolution then like i said i have definitive proof that this is not the case. Cut human education program and you are set basically on same level as apes. Who we are today is not product of evolution but byproduct of several factors and not direct form of evolution. Humans having some sort of super brain to its size alone is idiotic concept along with "only humans have souls/consciousness"
GD stuff.

Don't want to turn this on GD but fuck, I can't resist...its your fault man, your fault. Natural state theories are something borderline unscientific as comparisons with the natural world aren't proof of anything as animals lack a series of abilities that humans have and there weren't cases of true stateless societies as even on the worst cases, there were terrible crisis fucking with everything and there weren't anything the goverment could do anyway, what makes the role of the goverment to keep order quite questionable. Look to Egypt recently, goverment fallen, there was widespread looting as the sociopaths took advantage but it didn't took long for people to form militias to protect their homes. Actually, on many cases on Africa, Latin America, Asia and even Europe, there is a bigger chance of you ending being fucked by your own goverment than by machete rapists. Fuck, here on Brazil, there was a case of looting and alot of people that participated on it felt so guilty about robbing that they called the owner and left things they stolen on the front of the store on the following day .

Why do you divide bandits and government as different entity ? It is power that doesn't belong to your group and government is just a power you think it is safer to fallow in long run. What is more important even if you don't like it you still need to fallow it because your are literally slave to it. Democracy changed a lot system of that power but ultimately it is something you can't control and can screw you if you don't fallow gov rules.

You can always say but "humans are slaves to their instincts as chimps are" but if that was the case there wouldn't be civilization as no police or goverment can realisticaly really stop people from doing antisocial behavior especially if widespread. Here on Brazil, I could buy a machine gun, get it from the border with Paraguay, cross a river on a boat, aim at a building on the middle of the street and open a few nice holes on it with the police comming later to count the bodies. Fuck, I could order an Ak 47 from the internet and be lucky for it to pass on the 99% of the cargo that isn't inspected like most well connected slum lords do or I could do like some bank robbing roving bands do here of storming the police station with Aks and taking the two police officers as hostage (Yeah , TWO police officers for an entire city) in there and make a party blowing up ATM machines with dynamite.

But we are slaves to our instincts. Problem with your reasoning is that you think our instincts conflict with creation of who we are today where in reality instinct is what created it in first place which was later build upon by social development through education chain and still rule us even if we think we have free will. We still have sex, fear, get angry and so many more things you could think off along with things like greed or trying to be better than someone else. Free will is another concept which is along ideas such as i mentioned earlier like only humans have soul. We have will but it is not completely free. We operate in boundaries of our instincts we think something is good because our instinct tells us that burrito tastes good. We can't learn eat shit so it will taste better. We think something is boner inducing because instinct tells us. We feel sad, angry, despair and so on because instinct wired you/us that way. But it is the same thing that will guarantee that as long as we remove status quo of power we will try to fuck each other.


The true reason why Brazil isn't Mad Max is because brazilians are mostly good people as if you were depend on police... yeah they catch the criminals after the 10th bank they assaulted or 100th person they stolen the wallet and only because they got too greedy like robbing someone ten feet away from a police officer or assaulting a bank on the middle of a police opperation (yeah, see how the criminals respect the brazilian police). By the way, do you know brazilian justice release criminals because there aren't enough prisons? Yeah... that bank robber will pass six years on jail and get out to rob a few more banks before retiring. Brazil isn't the only country who has those problem, most goverments are this shitty and Europe and the USA aren't on the same bullhit because europeans and americnas weren't fools into believing goverments were cool pro order institution and actually tried putting restrictions on it but it seems they are getting as foolish as we latin americans lately.

Goverment is a product of evolution as much as a virus is, it is a highly evolved creature but it has only one function to fuck you on the ass and brainwash you into believing you had an orgasm. (If you really had one, you are totally gay, I'm telling you.)
True reason why Brazil isn't mad max is that there is always power that keeps things in check and that is gov. Like you said gov place isn't to educate. it is to rule. Growh is by product of that and it is much safer to fill your place in created this way society than to go against it.
 

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
12,196
VD himself has said that he didn't go into AoD with the intention of making some weird experimental combat and CYOA thing, but that's what happened on account of his cargo cult approach.
Eh, he's been consistent throughout the development on what he values in rpgs and what he's been trying to do with AOD. It's just that, prior to release of the demo, he couldn't foresee how "controversial" or divisive his decisions would be. It's less about about VD inadvertently putting in features he didn't intend, and more about his view of what an RPG is and how that conflicts with established mainstream notions.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
Take for example Mexico. Country like any other and yet there is now there almost civil war were thousands of people die yearly.

Take a look at africa where sometimes govs menage to fail and see how bandits walking from one village to another village to pillage and rape is not really rare. That is your "social evolution" for you. Nothing changed since stone age. In case of lack of power keeping things in check people will use each mean necessary to have better position than someone else. So goody goody people are just weakest members or that world.

Why people are so ignorant.

Ignorant to what exactly ? One power tries to set status quo and show who is in power. Cartels try to fight but they are on loser side. People who don't want to have anything to do with it die. I used mexico as a case because it is closest case of that society we consider developed has almost civil war because of struggle for power. People who live there can't opt out from none of sides.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
VD himself has said that he didn't go into AoD with the intention of making some weird experimental combat and CYOA thing, but that's what happened on account of his cargo cult approach.
Eh, he's been consistent throughout the development on what he values in rpgs and what he's been trying to do with AOD. It's just that, prior to release of the demo, he couldn't foresee how "controversial" or divisive his decisions would be. It's less about about VD inadvertently putting in features he didn't intend, and more about his view of what an RPG is and how that conflicts with established mainstream notions.

what they changed in combat ? I played only old demo and since then i don't update on AoD because i don't want to spoil myself.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
Roguey, please explain (and I actually mean this - not even trolling here, just genuinely confused) what the hell you actually mean by 'cargo cult' when applied to games? You use it all the time, and it even got me to wikipedia it to check that I didn't just have some weird made-up meaning of the term in my head (like my 6-year-old self, who upon reading the Wiz1 manual, thought that the 'ninja' class in the game - in my head, pronounced '9-ja' - was an entirely different entity to those cool asian characters the kids at school whose parents lacked tv-monitoring discipline called ninjas). Wikipedia describes it as: "the belief that various ritualistic acts will lead to a bestowing of material wealth", that combines charismatic figures, traditionalism and (most importantly) a belief that these things will bring an abundance of material goods. This mostly matches my prior understanding of the term, as referring to 'Jesus will make you win the stock market' evangelists and their historical equivalents.

So....what does the term have to do with games, good or bad?

It's the game design version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult_programming

VD himself has said that he didn't go into AoD with the intention of making some weird experimental combat and CYOA thing, but that's what happened on account of his cargo cult approach.
Eh?

My cargo cult approach?
 
Joined
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Messages
1,875,971
Location
Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Those things are severely thrown out of proportion by the United States. There's no struggle for power. People who live there go to work everyday in the morning then, after work, they go to their houses with their family. They aren't living at gunpoint like you people think. You won't get killed if you travel there.

17634.jpg


Sounds legit.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,824
I am being so god damn retarded
Yes you are, you are arguing something that cant be contested just for the sake of arguing.

it tries to extrapolate the effects of stuff that seems somewhat possible on society at large, which is one of the more pristine flavors of sci-fi (unless you wrongly equate sci-fi with spaceships and lasers).
Genre tropes are different in survival and sci fi. There may be some overlap, but the focus of both genres is different. Sci fi is about exploration of new or old ideas in a story with a base in science. Survival genre is about the characters mental state in front of something overwhelming, be it a force of nature or magic or whatever, while at the same time struggling against lack of resources.

But this isnt even what the core of the conversation is, we are talking about a crippled thats doing stuff that his condition shouldnt allow, in a game that tries hard to make you believe and immerse in it it fucking stands out. More than some shit weighting more or less than it should.
 

SuicideBunny

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Messages
8,943
Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Torment: Tides of Numenera
Yes you are, you are arguing something that cant be contested just for the sake of arguing.
i commented that i found it funny that it was that thing amongst all the other bullshit that broke your suspension of disbelief. the ones who started arguing why this particular instance of bullshit was very different than all the other bullshit were mastermind and you, as if you somehow needed to justify yourself, which makes it even funnier.
and now you are calling me a retard rather than answering the very simple question why it's not ok for the game to have a guy in a wheelchair be capable of doing some thing he couldn't in real life without explaining it, but it's perfectly ok for the game to have objects act in ways they would normally be incapable of, like the aforementioned indestructible storefront windows, without explaining it at all, seeing how both of these are the result of gameplay concessions for the sake of being able to finish writing it in a timely manner without introducing too much overhead capable of bugging shit out for little additional effect. the way i see it, you are perfectly fine with accepting way bigger bullshit than superhero wheelchair man merely because it's bullshit you are used to and thus don't even give it a second glance.

Genre tropes are different in survival and sci fi. There may be some overlap, but the focus of both genres is different. Sci fi is about exploration of new or old ideas in a story with a base in science. Survival genre is about the characters mental state in front of something overwhelming, be it a force of nature or magic or whatever, while at the same time struggling against lack of resources.
yes, science, not technology. science such as sociology, psychology, or the root of all sciences, philosophy are all perfectly fine foundations for sci-fi. a disaster where some bacteria mutate to have devastating effects on humans, causing them to go feral attack uninfected people, the infection rapidly spreading, bigger societal structures collapsing as a result, and the emergence and methods of survival of smaller units, focusing on one of those in particular, is both sci-fi and survival. those things aren't mutually exclusive.

But this isnt even what the core of the conversation is, we are talking about a crippled thats doing stuff that his condition shouldnt allow, in a game that tries hard to make you believe and immerse in it it fucking stands out. More than some shit weighting more or less than it should.
the game doesn't try hard to make you believe and immerse yourself in it at all. it has tb combat, overhead view, forced concrete responses which always make you cringe and be annoyed why there isn't a response available which is more to your liking and you think would make more sense in the given situations, it has a cat communicating via the narrative descriptions, ammo that doesn't weight anything at all, despite being a resource, ridiculously cringeworthy scenes like the abortion mhc described, and a ton of other immersion breakers too numerous to list, all for the sake of gameplay rather than immersion, just like the guy in the wheelchair who, thanks to his skills and the fact that he actually can work on all shelter upgrades, doesn't turn into a completely obsolete npc whom you would shoot instantly if you just could take him out into the field.
i get that that one thing is an immersion breaker for you, but that doesn't change the fact that the game is full of other shit like it, right from the start, before you even get a chance to notice that he's better at building a watchtower than some of your other starting allies, or that it is a rather minor issue
 

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