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KickStarter Darkest Dungeon Pre-Release Thread

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
I don't find the game hard at all (except for some "Boss dungeon fight") and i don't consider myself a Difficulty Fetish.

I dropped the game some months ago after playing it around maybe 20-30h
.... Have you played recently? No one is complaining about how hard or random it was months ago. Recent patches have made drastic changes.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure about that actually.
There have always been some fluctuations in difficulty or impact of some features, but overall the game's randomness or difficulty to me seems similar to where it was months ago, maybe with the exception of some nerfs and those annoying high-prot enemies.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
Patron
Joined
Jan 12, 2004
Messages
11,574
Location
Black Goat Woods !@#*%&^
Make the Codex Great Again! RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
.... Have you played recently? No one is complaining about how hard or random it was months ago. Recent patches have made drastic changes.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure about that actually.
There have always been some fluctuations in difficulty or impact of some features, but overall the game's randomness or difficulty to me seems similar to where it was months ago, maybe with the exception of some nerfs and those annoying high-prot enemies.
Huh, I misread the situation then. I thought it was this most recent patch that was the last straw for some of these folks. I've been waiting for release myself so I don't have any firsthand.

Legion
 
Last edited:

Dr Skeleton

Arcane
Joined
Nov 9, 2014
Messages
815
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Eh, it's really not that hard. I played it for the first time during the previous version (before the recent update), after a couple of missions I learned the basics and started over. After restarting I lost something like 6-7 characters total, most of them early on, during boss fights I wasn't ready for. I can't see how you can get a party wipe or heart attacks unless you really push your luck, you should just retreat when things start going badly, it's not like there's any real penalty for that. I wanted to clear it 100%, buy after I beat one boss on the highest difficulty I just got bored. The game does have a problem with grinding and shallow mechanics, but I still like it.
I don't think I was doing any super-optimized strategies either, I usually just went with 2 random tanks/melee, 1 support/ranged and 1 healer, maybe changing things up for specific bosses.
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
Outside of the great art design and interesting basic idea, the game lacks a clear scope and direction. Over the course of the EA, Red Hook has done little to change anything about that. There have been a few big changes (content updates, and gameplay changes like corpses and heart attacks), but in my opinion they have not changed the core gameplay.
I'm not even a very good player of DD. I manage to play it without losing many heroes, but I never cared much about optimized builds or the various strategies or exploits that the hardcore players or "difficulty fetishists" Jeff Vogel is talking about are insisting makes the game such a cakewalk (talk to Celerity above, he can tell you more about that). I just happened to get burned out by the game after 20-25 hours and never bothered much with implementing such strategies and only fire it up after the major updates to have a look at the new content.

Btw., the new abomination class seems somewhat interesting due to offering different mechanics and concept to the other classes. Probably too little, too late, though.

I clipped out most of this so I wouldn't quote the entire thing just so I could say that I agree. The game, aside from the whole difficulty/balance aspect has always been entirely lacking in depth, and while mods at least could make the combat semi non one dimensional, there really was not anything you could do for the exploration aspects. Even the very early builds of the game had more of this. Fog of War for example would make scouting actually do something. As it is now, it doesn't matter if scouting shows what is ahead or not. The map generator only generates one path with occasional short dead ends in 95% of cases. You were going that way anyways. If there's a fight you'll still encounter it and still not see what's in that fight until you enter combat. If there's a curio you still won't see which one and by extension what step you should take on this complete flowchart for all non combat encounters until it's right in front of you anyways:

1: Is the curio always safe? If yes, 4. If no, 2.
2: Is the curio always safe with a specific item that you currently have? If yes, 4. If no, 3.
3: Ignore it and keep walking.
4: Check it, using item if necessary.

Scouting out traps technically does something, but since that something is preventing 6 damage and 15 stress (if you pass 2 RNG checks) it doesn't much matter if you succeed or not and is certainly not worth taking an otherwise useless (and backrow) character and putting them in the front of your party so that their scouting modifier is used. Because only the front character's scouting counts. Yay for obscure hidden mechanics that deliberately create or amplify trap options!

As for the difficulty fetishists talk, Jeff was completely right about the game breaking down and completely wrong about them heeding the feedback of difficulty fetishists. They haven't heeded anyone's feedback except their own, and that's why they make random incoherent changes no one asked for while dramatically posturing about "vision", which they believe "saved the game".

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/...campaign=Feed:+GamasutraNews+(Gamasutra+News)

And while I do enjoy difficult games, ranging from sort of hard-will spend entire nights on a single boss fight getting game overs until I finally win, despite the false narrative that these developers spin I didn't actually want or expect max difficulty from Darkest Dungeon. My first problem with them was not that the game wasn't brutally hard - it was that it was falsely advertised by not being difficult, Roguelike, or containing difficult decisions at all. If they made the game difficult but not brutally so I'd have been fine with that. If I found it easy I would then raise the difficulty without thinking less of the developers because difficult games naturally do become easy as you master them over their non trivial learning curves and that's fine. If a game becomes easy after dozens or hundreds of hours that's fine. if a game starts easy that's still fine as long as it's not presented as difficult. I don't have a problem with easy games existing, but fuck false advertisement.

If not for mods I'd have been bored after 25 hours and 1 run and forgotten about the game for being a shallow, one dimensional grindfest in which I could make dozens of mistakes a run and still easily win. The mods proved this could have been a proper game on the tactical side and even on the game side were some depth added, but apparently that is a lot of work for these devs that constantly spend time attending conventions with their giant custom booths and Alienware computers and chattering on Twitter and Twitch while their behind schedule Early Access game receives the minimum possible effort and buggy, poorly thought out patches. I mean really. If you are making an anti infinite healing exploit, the very first thing you do is make it turn on when healing is taking place. That way, if a party is fighting but knocked out of position, or has low damage because they ignored the increasingly heavy handed hints that not stacking damage is playing the game wrong, or you ARE stacking damage but only kill 3 out of 4 enemies on the first turn you don't have your characters whining about "prolonging combat" when you're not deliberately delaying anything, you're just pretending the game has actual tactics and getting punished for it. That entire patch, this "more than a fix" is them getting mad at this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7gw1GWfnNw

That's it, that's the only reason. They're more concerned with spiting critics and spinning narratives about their critics (or often one specific critic, me) for the past 6 months at least than they are with actually making a good game anymore. They literally spend more time in their interviews railing against critics than actually discussing their game. Anyone familiar with the game can watch one and have a good laugh as the developers spent 15-30 minutes whining about me and telling some very blatant lies. It's great. They haven't realized that "proving me wrong" - that is, addressing my complaints about the game in this spiteful and twisted way only hurts them and in the end proves me right by making the game the sort of arbitrary, one dimensional failure I dismiss it as.

Oh and the Abomination is a troll class. See they seen all the people mocking the game for being a one dimensional damage spam fest. So they made a class that seemed like the perfect, new ultimate class with super high damage, very high speed, and average accuracy. They then crippled it with so many hidden penalties and weak skill mechanics so it isn't actually very good at all. Mark my words, sooner or later they'll address those arguments with some variation of "Abomination has high damage and isn't commonly used". As if the goal of class creation were spiting your critics and not making useful and interesting new mechanics.
 

Wizfall

Cipher
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
816
.... Have you played recently? No one is complaining about how hard or random it was months ago. Recent patches have made drastic changes.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure about that actually.
There have always been some fluctuations in difficulty or impact of some features, but overall the game's randomness or difficulty to me seems similar to where it was months ago, maybe with the exception of some nerfs and those annoying high-prot enemies.
Huh, I misread the situation then. I thought it was this most recent patch that was the last straw for some of these folks. I've been waiting for release myself so I don't have any firsthand.

I remember clearly people complaining with difficulty after the corpse mechanic were introduced (just when i first start playing the game).
Could not understand the comments about difficulties by then because i found the game quite easy, must have been a cakewalk before.
I played all the updates a little bit since then except the last one, not noticed a pike in difficulty (even the other way as i became better).

I don't care sounding edgy but some must suck big time at TB strategic game because if you pay attention Darkest Dungeon mechanics are very simple and you should not lose once you have played a bit.
As Dr Skeleton said, you may retreat sometimes when you get unlucky (which does not happen often and is very easy to do without almost any bad consequences) and that's it.
Or maybe some consider it more like a casual game (not critics intended here) that may barely require any thinking while iright from the start i was interested in finding the right combo/strategies.

Remind me of myself playing FPS : i can't play FPS, everyone beat me at this kind of game even with the very few i played quite a lot.
I find FPS very hard, i even drop System shock 2 (which is far from being a pure FPS) and stalker because of that as it gets on my nerve. The only one i found manageable was F3 and FNV with the VATS system.
I don't ask for dumb piss easy FPS though and those that suck at game which involve a tiny bit of strategy and planning should not too, especially when is suposed to be a bit hardcore and the mechanics are in fact damn easy.
For me they want the awesome button...total popamoler of the genre.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Game is bad and you should feel bad for not acknowledging it's bad.
 
Self-Ejected

Ludo Lense

Self-Ejected
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
936
The problem is that the game's theme and advertising indicates towards a certain play-style and experience while the devs went into the total opposite direction.

The game isn't very hard if you play it right, but playing it right sucks. The main idea here is horror and mystery, get a party of 4 adventurers and see what you can find in a creepy Cthulhu dungeon. But what the game actually is a dressed up "Roll your dice, move your mice" with a shallow base management option: See how far you can get to the boss and if not just retreat, Retire guys who are too far gone, Cycle through guys to get the best comps etc. 0 mystery.

So you are left with a binary crappy game. Do the right thing and wallow in the monotony of watching RNGfests. Do wrong thing of just trying things out and immediately die. Even the insanity aspect is made bad by this, most of them can be lumped into "some boring modifier that will kill you quick". I think this is why most people who say it is hard quit, because even on a subconscious level, who many people want to do the grind to progress?

I blame the base management aspect, Rogue legacy also got ruined by it, roguelikes just suck at it. It forces the dev to make and balance a very clear line of progression in a heavily rng focused content structure. BoI's progression of adding items (both good and bad) while ramping up the difficulty with each milestone was way better.

TL DR People think it is a cool atmospheric dungeon crawler when in reality it is Microsoft Excel with a Cthulhu skin.
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
.... Have you played recently? No one is complaining about how hard or random it was months ago. Recent patches have made drastic changes.

Ehhh, I'm not so sure about that actually.
There have always been some fluctuations in difficulty or impact of some features, but overall the game's randomness or difficulty to me seems similar to where it was months ago, maybe with the exception of some nerfs and those annoying high-prot enemies.
Huh, I misread the situation then. I thought it was this most recent patch that was the last straw for some of these folks. I've been waiting for release myself so I don't have any firsthand.

I remember clearly people complaining with difficulty after the corpse mechanic were introduced (just when i first start playing the game).
Could not understand the comments about difficulties by then because i found the game quite easy, must have been a cakewalk before.
I played all the updates a little bit since then except the last one, not noticed a pike in difficulty (even the other way as i became better).

I don't care sounding edgy but some must suck big time at TB strategic game because if you pay attention Darkest Dungeon mechanics are very simple and you should not lose once you have played a bit.
As Dr Skeleton said, you may retreat sometimes when you get unlucky (which does not happen often and is very easy to do without almost any bad consequences) and that's it.
Or maybe some consider it more like a casual game (not critics intended here) that may barely require any thinking while iright from the start i was interested in finding the right combo/strategies.

This is self selection at work. Back in Feburary everyone understood the game's basic mechanics as they had experienced far more difficult and complex systems elsewhere, even in games still not very high on the difficulty spectrum. Those people mostly left because there was no meat. Meanwhile an increasing number of casuals appeared as a result of all the aggressive video focused advertising. They find everything difficult, and as lazy developers who want their game appearing difficult without actually doing so make for an ideal audience, as they require no effort. Of course this has gone on so long they've gotten themselves stuck. If they ever do add difficulty they outrage most of their community, if they add tedium instead they outrage all of it, and if they keep the game as it is their target audience keeps taking a pass. Instead of playing both sides they should have stuck with their vision, at least 40% of the conflicts with this game came from breaking down with this dissonance. Failing that they should have been honest about pursuing the more profitable casual market. Either way would have avoided this. Instead you have people insisting Plague Doctors are both useful and "required" and that's their baseline for competence.
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
Nah. That's giving Darkest Dungeon far more credit that it deserves. After the first thousand words about its "tactics" you start repeating yourself and/or sounding pretentious and it only takes that many if you explain your reasoning. Any actual game has more depth than that, as do some clicker games. I've never even made a non trolling vanilla video because fill your entire team with Hellions and max their offense and smash face doesn't require further explanation. Or that basic flowchart? The entire non combat dungeon strategy is there.

About the only thing you can discuss at length is the game's and developer's failures. Since they've done such a great job of turning their supporters against them I'll happily do that. But ya know, I'd rather have a good game than mock and warn people off terrible ones.
 

roll-a-die

Magister
Joined
Sep 27, 2009
Messages
3,131
Celerity You, can we keep you?

You manage to be assertive without sounding dickish. And you actually contribute to a conversation in an intelligent fashion.

Also as an aside, I'm the last person you should talk to about tedium v difficulty, and developers making poor decisions for a casual market, as the game I play most nowadays, embarrassingly is Minecraft*. A game that forgot about more of its goals in favor of massive amounts of money, than pretty much any other, and is basically reliant on the modding universe to make things compelling for its players older than 10.

However the difference between me and most "fans" of darkest dungeon, and also minecraft come to think of it. I acknowledge that one is an RNG infested hellpit of tedium, with an interesting art style and compelling narration, the other is nothing but tedium, at least without mods, with the aesthetic and basic mechanics of Lego. before telling people who I like, what I like about them.

*To be fair, I also play EU4 a fair deal, but that probably doesn't help either**.

** To be fair I've been playing minecraft since May '09, so yeah, I could probably tell some of the interesting stories about minecraft. Like that fact that Notch has never really changed. He's always been a ridiculous person, prone to saying stupid things, and whose only talent is essentially making prototypes for others to add features too(WURM, Minecraft, 0x10c(Which someone is going out of his way to actually create,) and I'm pretty sure a few more.)
 

naossano

Cipher
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
1,232
Location
Marseilles, France
I am quite a stranger to the whole grinding thing, and i am still having difficulties so far.
Already got three groups slaughtered by the first dungeon boss. (actually, the first dungeon after you reached the city)
I don't see the point of leaving the dungeon early, and lose progress and get malus for adventurers.
Unless you end up with a bad configuration agains't the opponements, i prefer trying my chance agains't the full dungeon.
If it get this as a game mechanics, i don't like "immersion-wise" the fact that you could just leave and re-enter a dungeon anytime.
It makes more sense to deal with it once and leave it for good. Considering the game add stress too, i don't see why they would want to enter it again.
And i would rather avoid repeating too much some combats i already had.
 

Gord

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2011
Messages
7,049
There are certain parallels to Sensuki's unhealthy obsession with PoE, though.
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
Celerity You, can we keep you?

You manage to be assertive without sounding dickish. And you actually contribute to a conversation in an intelligent fashion.

Sure. Though that's only true when I turn off the sarcastic troll persona. Which is fine with me, I'd rather be serious anyways.

Also as an aside, I'm the last person you should talk to about tedium v difficulty, and developers making poor decisions for a casual market, as the game I play most nowadays, embarrassingly is Minecraft*. A game that forgot about more of its goals in favor of massive amounts of money, than pretty much any other, and is basically reliant on the modding universe to make things compelling for its players older than 10.

I don't really follow Minecraft at all. But the way I see it is that Minecraft is presented as a giant sandbox, it is a giant sandbox, there's no false advertising and so I am not offended. Minecraft can do what it likes. I'm not interested in Minecraft but I am not offended it exists.

However the difference between me and most "fans" of darkest dungeon, and also minecraft come to think of it. I acknowledge that one is an RNG infested hellpit of tedium, with an interesting art style and compelling narration, the other is nothing but tedium, at least without mods, with the aesthetic and basic mechanics of Lego. before telling people who I like, what I like about them.

It's funny you say this, given that I liken my modding of Darkest Dungeon with constructing an entire house out of Lego blocks. It's technically possible, and it looks very impressive and photoworthy. But you'd still get better results using actual building materials as that's really not what Legos are meant for.

I see Celerity is Darkest Dungeon's Sensuki.

Sensuki never managed to get himself banned, though :P https://steamcommunity.com/app/262060/discussions/4/618453594742695196/

https://m.ask.fm/Jimquisition/answers/130747933410

Jesus, that Celerity dude is *everywhere* on this.

It's true. I tried handling them in a civil manner, then an annoyed manner, then a hostile manner. When none of that worked, and they had already started censoring other people I contacted Jim Sterling about their antics. When he then covered the game again, but only mentioned the least offensive problem with it I still quite happily informed them there was now a Jim article, and of course that got me censored for a month. Later, mentioning his name resulted in permanent censorship, and very recently (as in within the last 24 hours) people actually started reading the official boards so they went ahead and censored me there as expected for calling out their community manager for not "being excellent" when managing their fans along with basic factual errors.

Banning the only person who was serious about modding your game? Well done, Red Hook, well done.

Not only that, but their most extensive feedback provider and tester as I was presenting solutions that worked in a practical environment. They didn't care about any of that though, they were more concerned with promoting vanilla streams and emailing me telling me that they were offended I thought an Early Access (beta) game was in need of fixing.

"We're gonna win, we're gonna do it, we're gonna get out of this. WHAT THE ****?! NO, WHY? WE HAD IT! WHY?!?!?!" - Beagle 2015, on Deepest Dark

Celerity is there a video of this?

Beagle highlights all of his videos. I'm sure I could find it (it was around June or July), clip out all the vanilla footage so it was just him on the mod, and then find the clip of that battle where he said that and host it somewhere. That would take a significant amount of time though so how many want this? It's funny because I remember specifically restoring the mod just because he personally requested it and if it weren't for that I'd have withdrawn support 2 months prior.

Banning the only person who was serious about modding your game? Well done, Red Hook, well done.

There's also Pitch Black Dungeon and other mods that are "serious about modding" the game. Celerity likely got banned for his rather abrasive dickish unique comments.

I'd rather not shittalk people that aren't here but honestly, with zero ego or self interest there are not. I'd have been happy if there were, especially other difficulty modders but there was not. The modding scene has always consists of me, the maker of Pitch Black, and various others. The various others would release poorly functioning mods that often would remain completely broken for weeks because their makers were not maintaining or tracking them at all. These same people also once remarked they'd be "happy" if someone blatantly stole their work because at least it was getting attention. Yeah... Me and Maester Silvio were the only ones that actually maintained our work, the difference is that he spent much of his time never doing more than that as he was one of the many people that played the game through once then forgot about it. His grasp on mechanics is highly questionable at best, and so the end result of his mod was vanilla, but with more grind and RNG. That's not the part I have a problem with. The part I have a problem with is where he once contacted me and tried pressuring me using the same vague, political talk I later seen a great deal of from Red Hook later on. What was he pressuring me about, you ask? Abandoning my project and doing all the work on his for him. Yes, really. When I'd ask him very direct questions like "What does that even do that I haven't already done?" seeing as, by this time a collab mod* already existed and has been maintained by me he just dodged the question.

It's funny because as much as he insisted then he was busy with a "career" he did eventually return and suddenly cared about modding this game, with much talk of the developers suddenly caring about modding (provided those mods don't change much and don't make them look bad by existing), and much talk of him working for Red Hook. I mean he does fit with them perfectly, he has the whole lazy, dishonest, low effort thing going for him so they'll get along great but as far as difficulty mods go, he's never made one. But it all makes sense in hindsight. Once I got disgusted with Red Hook and quit supporting my own work there was no longer any competition and that's the only purpose his one sided proposal would have fufilled. So he goes and does a bunch of grunt work, hands out a bunch of random effects with no impact because nothing synergizes with them (stress resist debuff + no stress dealer in formation = good job), and goes from there.

* - When I say collab mod, I mean he gave his permission and I did all the work of incorporating the few non redundant elements of his mod in a separate version of mine and then more work fixing the problems with his work. He didn't actually do anything - even make the joint title screen he said he would do. That project was far less balanced than the base mod, and only made at all by the request of one of my testers.
 

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,810
Holy shit, can I get like a cliff-notes version of this drama? It seems delicious indeed. Celerity understanding that I read your entire post above.. what exactly is it that Red Hook did that showed them as dishonest, lazy, etc?
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
Holy shit, can I get like a cliff-notes version of this drama? It seems delicious indeed. Celerity understanding that I read your entire post above.. what exactly is it that Red Hook did that showed them as dishonest, lazy, etc?

(Not really) Short version:

Red Hook advertises and hypes this incredibly difficult hardcore Roguelike unique game. They give as little in the way of detail as possible, while talking in these vague and grand statements. That makes them blaze through the Kickstarter phase despite having shown very little in the way of a game at this time. Many people were fooled by this, a few saw through it, I didn't even know the game existed yet.

Very shortly before their Early Access release they did a "Week of Torment" event in which they got an incredibly large volume of Twitch streamers and Youtube content producers previewing their game a week early and showing it off for a massive audience.
Once the game is released this results in many people buying it because favorite video maker x liked it.

The game wasn't actually difficult, or Roguelike, or about making difficult decisions. And without seeing it through the viewpoint of a distracted and generally unskilled person, that became apparent within 5 hours at the most for any early adopters.
The forums were filled with feedback about the many balance problems that resulted in a complete lack of challenge and depth, as well as the complete lack of class balance.

Red Hook's response was ignoring this for a while, and then doing the minimal possible thing that makes them seem like they are doing something. For example, walls of posts by different users mathematically demonstrating Plague Doctor non viability = Plague Doctor gets a 70% chance of curing damage over time instead of 50% (note: Enemy DoTs are just as useless as yours, and that was the real problem with the class). Or Hellion stacking trivializes the dungeon with damage spam = one of the viable Hellion moves (and 2 bad ones) debuff your damage after using them. Which doesn't hurt you at all if you're stacking Hellions because one round of attacks kills everything. The purpose of these were proxy nerfs, make it seem like the problem is fixed so people quit complaining about it.

While early on this sort of thing was very minor and not really noticible for most people, as the months past, more and more of the initial crowd lost interest, but the balance problems remained these sorts of lazy changes became more and more prominent. A good example of this is the anti heal exploit. Before it worked no problem. They allegedly fixed it, it still works if you attack for 0 damage or attack and miss. They claimed they fixed it again, it worked with no changes. They claimed they fixed it again, it worked with no changes. The latest patch "fixes" it a fourth time. It mostly just punishes you for not damage spamming instead. Worth noting: The instant people started this nonsense in Deepest Dark back in... March-April I fixed this by simply giving every commonly exploited enemy a (generally 1 in 8) chance of summoning a mini boss if alone on his turn. That simple fix actually better prevented the exploit and had fewer unintended sideeffects than anything officially done.

Their laziness started really becoming apparent around the Fiends and Frenzy and especially the Corpse and Hound patches released 5/28 and 7/15, respectively. The former showcased their laziness because they were not only putting in the minimum possible effort, but were also releasing the game with major crash bugs (with the cannon), and were barely utilizing their own features. The latter made it so obvious everyone started seeing it as while most fixated themselves on corpses, every aspect of this patch was lazy and arbitrary (and/or just power creep, like locking more damage on your characters). You also have the Hound(master), a useless class that is also a fairly obvious palette swap of the Man at Arms (compare faces) and the Rabid Dog instead of being an original work. You have 12 pages of notes, but most of it is "we did a bunch of minor shit, look how awesome we are".

As for the dishonest part, I started suspecting that right around the time the game was becoming easier and simplier instead of harder and more complex even though they knew better. That was around... Feburary? March? But I don't like throwing around strong accusations like that until proven beyond all doubt. All doubt got removed around late May, when I received that email about "Early Access games being in need of fixing". They then responded with a lot of BS that was quite obviously false, but I read it in the best possible light anyways and gave them one final chance with the Corpse and Hound. Which they failed at. They liked blaming me for all the hostility that came from this patch, the fact is I knew it'd be shit, I didn't download it or look at the forums for hours and by the time I did evaluate it and said something about it the forums were already full of negative posts.

The dishonest part became blatant when their forums exploded with this negativity from all sides, the developers manifested the Abusive affliction because they could not just "ignore salt", and began censoring their userbase for negative feedback. Posts would vanish in a half hour or less, threads would be locked, users would be banned (sometimes permanently on a first offense). People would collect evidence on this, sometimes the evidence would vanish before they could even screenshot it at all hours of the day and night. Cue hundreds of posts preserving the evidence, many people reaching out for Jim Sterling, while meanwhile the review section exploded from its original 95% positive early lead because those couldn't be censored (usually).

Jim eventually acknowledges what's going on, after a sale backfires on them by giving the wall of negative reviews a large number (as high as 1,500+) recommended votes in 36 hours. He misses all the talk of censorship, and just focuses on corpses which Red Hook would eventually use like a political weapon.* While they didn't care at all what the normal users thought, they near instantly made them optional after Jim's fans repeatedly suggested this. Why? Because negative attention from someone important = lost sales.

I, meanwhile very happily showed off the Jim Sterling article anyways. This resulted in much rage from the game's blind supporters, who suddenly thought Jim was the worst human being on the planet and one even harassed him on his own boards then got parried with a one liner. It also resulted in much rage from the developers, who censored me for a full month for making that thread (the many people insulting both me, Jim, and any other critics were not even warned, and this was considered an abuse of the report feature by Cadogan aka RedHookRyan).

That censorship, and some of their other antics finally made Jim aware he missed much of the situation. He couldn't investigate fully now but he did go ahead and withdraw his curator support.

Meanwhile a few of the most popular negative reviews are censored, after someone asked if Jim would investigate Planetary Annihilation for doing the same thing. They quit doing that when it was quickly caught and highlighted.

After a lot of outrage about it things calmed, it seemed they might save face and even present themselves as a legitimate company by making it seem as if they fired the censoring mod for making their company look bad, and replacing him with someone else (RedHookJohn), who conducted an "interview" with them 6 months ago). None of that was true, as I found when I returned around Cove time, warned people of this game's history, and promptly got permanently censored for mentioning Jim Sterling's name. As usual, plenty of insults thrown my way without even a warning and if I respond at all, even hitting report post that's abusing the report feature, because this is how they treat their critics. Once they finally did do it the mindless supporters had a nice circle jerk for a few days where they carried on like PTSD victims about the "mean" things I said about the game. Hilarious shit. They also made multiple disclaimers about their censoring as this was happening.

More recently (as in between Cove and now) the censorship largely calmed (because they ran out of targets mostly) and mostly consisted of them putting negative threads in their trash bin (Feedback and Suggestions) so prospective buyers won't see it immediately. That and they throughly self selected their userbase. Nearly everyone intelligent left, was driven off, or censored, leaving their mindless supporters and random new people. Most of whom would also be driven off by this empty "Git Gud" posturing.

Now cue their latest patch, where the entire thing is just poor coding that rewards damage spam and punishes everything else. I mean really. If you make an anti heal exploit script, the first thing it should do is activate only when a heal is used. If you're reordering your party, or killing (slowly), or buffing, or stunning or whatever you're not delaying combat. And you still can delay combat, you just need 2 harmless enemies. There's plenty of those.

None of this is surprising in hindsight. If you search for design documents by Tyler Sigman, there's a nice one about being lazy with AI and another about statistics. Both of which make very simple concepts seem much more sophisticated than they actually are. If he couldn't hide his lazy design behind unique art and compelling, but out of place narration it'd be a throwaway game. Everyone would see it for what it is - the anti Roguelike. Both because it actively avoids Roguelike elements and because it it praised for its presentation while being lambasted for its mechanics.

But the biggest thing that showcases their laziness and dishonesty isn't the poor design, the censoring, any of that. It's that the only thing they still do is aggressively advertise and put the game on sale 1-2 times a month. Imagine "Suicide Squadding", but with real people and that's what they think of their fans. Except they're barely getting any attention at all anymore, positive or negative. People know the real with them, marked them off, and continued on.

* - Red Hook quickly developed this narrative in which corpses (and heart attacks) were the only problems anyone could have with the game. They'd assume you meant those if you gave nondescriptive complaints about the game regardless of what you actually meant. Once they did become optional they'd say you can turn those off, therefore there's no problems with the game and anyone who thinks there are just wants their company burning.

Edit: I'd rather not keep going over it so I'll just leave this here.

http://steamcommunity.com/id/Areanynamesnottaken/recommended/262060/

Oh yeah and forgot a few gems. Their ego has grown so extensively they openly make statements on Twitter like their shitty walking simulator being more important than Baby Jesus (I don't care, but good job pissing off the large portion of the world that's religious!) or some random person in Denver is annoyed that people in Denver care more about sports than the shooting there and they repeatedly defend the other guys. I mean come on. I can be a sarcastic asshole troll, I can say some really mean shit, I can make grown men cry (probably why they hate me so much). There are some lines you never fucking cross, especially with zero provocation. With those remarks they quit being shitty game makers and shitty developers and started becoming shitty people.
 
Last edited:

agris

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Apr 16, 2004
Messages
6,810
I mean, yea, they're brogrammers/business school guys. I thought it was obvious from the pitch video?
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
That's just it. It was the video advertising that really got the word out there. I didn't know this game existed when it was on Kickstarter, and wouldn't have known it was getting released if not for that. If hardcore Roguelike fans aren't hearing of a hardcore Roguelike, just how much exposure would they have gotten without the mass spam?

It's pretty obvious now they're only interested in political speak and false advertising and censoring anything that makes them look bad (which just results in those they censored warning people in places they can't censor. It was actually pretty obvious very shortly after release. The downside of being a cynical person is that if you ever try not being cynical you dismiss a lot of legitimate warnings in the hopes of "giving them a fair chance" by assuming you are just being cynical.

Also, while I remember there's a large number of posts, some even from the developers saying things along the lines of "If these contentious features were in the game at release no one would be complaining now." I agree. Those people would have seen the tedium and left early instead of hoping for some future potential that'd never come, the game would have a nice "Mostly Negative" rating, and there'd be no one complaining now (about the game) because there is no one left in it.
 

Lucky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2015
Messages
672
So Celerity, I'm guessing this means that the Deepest Dark won't be finished? I haven't bought the game, but I have been keeping an eye on development and that mod looked like it could fix at least some of the issues I have with the game.
 

Celerity

Takes 1337 hours to realise it's shit.
Village Idiot Possibly Retarded
Joined
Nov 20, 2015
Messages
1,096
So Celerity, I'm guessing this means that the Deepest Dark won't be finished? I haven't bought the game, but I have been keeping an eye on development and that mod looked like it could fix at least some of the issues I have with the game.

Deepest Dark for Darkest Dungeon was discontinued many months ago when it became apparent the game was so broken I could no longer fix it, even by rejecting near entire patches. Well technically I could, but only by advocating piracy because that's the only way you could keep old builds. After a period of extreme annoyance and being very disheartened I wasted that much time on nothing I have since continued the Deepest Dark project in the real game Lords of Xulima.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=538266546

Numantian Games, unlike Red Hook Studios has produced a real and full game, respects their community, respects their testers, engages with people directly, and is an Early Access success story. I noticed the difference in working with them immediately - instead of ignoring or silently resenting what I do they are quite supportive of it. Their game isn't perfect either but I never wanted perfection - just something that is not horribly broken and falsely advertised, and the problems with their game stem more from not having enough tester feedback than ignoring it. Yes, it's easy after hundreds of hours, that's normal for difficult games, and so my making it harder isn't fixing the game, it's enhancing the game.

Of course the flip side of this is that because Lords of Xulima is fairly difficult by default, and I specifically aimed the mod at the subset of the 0.4% that beat the game on the highest difficulty and found that instantly I am targeting a smaller audience than I would by just making a trivial game hard at all. But that's fine with me. I don't actually like large amounts of attention and would rather have a small but dedicated fanbase.

The time in Darkest Dungeon wasn't a complete loss. Making that seem like a legitimate game is a massive confidence booster. If I can do that I can make anything good. But it wasn't a success for any of the reasons I was originally aiming for.
 

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