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DarkDale: Betrayal -- new indie RT blobber

Dorateen

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Turn-based combat is best I think when you can work a strategy with characters acting individuallly rather than as a party “blob”, usually in top-down mode, like in classic Gold Box series (Pool of Radiance), Infifity engine games, more recently the first Dragon Age…

But two of the games you mentioned are... real time. I know you were giving examples of top-down strategy modes, but it started out talking about where Turn-based combat is best. That comes off as a bad comparison. (Besides, Dragon Age should never be referenced in the same sentence as the Gold Box series.)

So anyway, have you shared any details about the setting? Will there be traditional playable races, dwarves and elves and such?
 

Metro

Arcane
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They're RTwP. And while I agree there's a bit of a disconnect in categorizing them as turn based they certainly aren't real time in the sense that a real time blobber is real time.
 
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@Edvk, indeed RT was not at all a buisness decision, but a design one. As I said, integrated gameplay and inclusion of level design in combat were some of the main pros. Maybe it's a sentimental attachment to DM indeed...

Yeah, I'm sorry for the imprecision about those games I mentionned, I indeed meant "not real-time". For me a game where you can be on pause and issue orders, browse calmly your inventory, think of a strategy, is not real-time, and the thought wouldn't cross my mind to play Baldur's Gate otherwise. Anyway, you guys are making me seriously rethink about including at least a TB option. After all, two of the main sources of inspiration for this for me are MM3-5 and Wizardy 7, both TB blobbers. Basically, I wanted to make a world of their scope but with the dynamic gameplay of DM, which suffers from no RPG elements. So I'm a BIG fan of turn-based combat as well, in MM it lacked depth but in Wiz7 it was amazing. But I still belive it more fun with a tactical component: I should have probably mentionned Betrayal at Krondor as an example, too.

Ah, and I really did enjoy DA:Origins, and it ranks as one of my favorite RPGs since BG2. For me everything clicked together, from story to visuals to deep tactical combat. I respect of course if you guys have a different opinion. The 2 was a total waste however.

Dorateen, setting is still in sketching stages. There will be playable races, of course. They won't be the standard ones, but there will be some archetypes that will appear - don't worry, it's not just cosmetic name substitutions, just to not call something elves. So no elves and dwarves in the strict sense. Orcs will probably be in. I'm preparing an update soon on the class, skills and attributes system. (That may even be split in two posts).
 

Lady_Error

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inclusion of level design in combat

I'm not sure if this has ever been done well in an RT blobber. What it usually boils down to is the side-stepping and nothing more. In RT combat you hardly have the time to create an intricate strategy based on level-design. Things simply go too fast in RT combat.

I think the main problem with using the level design in blobber combat is that it does not seem natural - so either you have a free-roaming engine (not step-based) where you can roam around and find good spots to attack enemies. This is pretty much an FPS approach. Or you use a step-based engine where these sorts of tactics will be more difficult to accomplish (due to the limitation to steps instead of free movement).

I also think that Wizardry 7 has the hands down best TB blobber combat system. If you went with that, I would definitely get this game.
 

octavius

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inclusion of level design in combat

I'm not sure if this has ever been done well in an RT blobber. What it usually boils down to is the side-stepping and nothing more. In RT combat you hardly have the time to create an intricate strategy based on level-design. Things simply go too fast in RT combat.

It worked somewhat in DM and CSB, since those games were rather slow, had better level design than other RT blobbers and because unlike other RT blobbers you could actually use the environment to some degree.
So the real time element did add something to the gameplay in DM and CSB, and you could even play them mostly without doing the two step dance. Most of the clones were just RT clickfests and nothing whatsoever was gained by them being real time, which is why I consider the whole RT blobber genre an evolutionary dead end in game design that was made obsolete with the release of Ultima Underworld.
 

Crooked Bee

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Anyway, you guys are making me seriously rethink about including at least a TB option. After all, two of the main sources of inspiration for this for me are MM3-5 and Wizardy 7, both TB blobbers.

You should stick to either real-time OR turn-based, not both at once. Nothing good will come out of this, except the problem of how the hell you're going to make combat equally meaningful and fun for both options - an impossible task.
 

Metro

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Jesus, please don't let the fucking whiners here steer you away from real time. Real time is fine so long as you keep in mind the design issues you already mentioned. There's just a select cadre of early twenty-somethings and tweenagers here that like to say hurr derrr turn based or gtfo to seemingly every genre and sub-genre because they're trying to score some Kodex Kool Kreds. They browbeat the Space Shock guy into half a dozen different combat design decisions until he ultimately decided on something like Realms of Arkania. But, in a blobber, I want blobber combat. There were quality RT blobbers back when these posers were in nursery school and there can be quality RT blobbers again with the right decisions. There's something to be said for diversity in reviving the classic genres.
 

Lady_Error

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It's interesting that those in support of TB blobbers are actually some of the oldest people on the Codex. Your theory that young twenty-somethings are all about TB combat is just nonsense, no matter how you look at it.
 

evdk

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GeorgesDimitrov Please, do not make this a hybrid game - pick one combat type and stick with it. In my experience all attempts to balance both RT and TB combat in one game ended in tragic failure. I'd personally hope you pick RT, because I'm interested in your offered solutions to the genre's flaws and believe that just going with TB would be the lazy way out, but then I'm biased ;).

Lady Error There is no dancing in DM, unless you are cheesing it beyond any necessity.
 

Metro

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The gauntlet has been thrown down. Thou must accept the challenge!
 

Lady_Error

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There's something to be said for diversity in reviving the classic genres.

I agree, and Grimrock already revived the Dungeon Master genre. Now the Wizardry genre has not been covered yet, unless you count Grimoire (which may or may not come out soon).
 
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Don't worry metro, I have a clear vision of the game I want to do, and won't change my mind overnight because of a forum post. I'm just open to discussion and this just made me wonder: "if most of my favorite games are TB, why am I making a RT one?". Maybe I believe indeed there is unused design space in DM/EOB gameplay and I want to see if I can do better.

No way am I making this hybrid either. What I had in mind was potentially an option for RT (DM) or TB (kind of Wizardry style), which would be set at the start at the game and not changeable later. Like two games in one. The reasoning was that I would have all the story, assets, levels, equipment etc. anyway, and I find making it interesting and balancing a TB game is easier than RT, precisely because of the design challenges you must face in the RT blobber genre. But I'm really not there yet. I'll start by developing DM combat in the best way I can, but keep the TB idea somewhere while I work.
 

Metro

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New blog update with a pretty good discussion of class systems: http://www.darkdale.net/2013/06/classes-in-darkdale/ After looking at the pros and cons of class-based versus non-class-based systems it looks like they're going with an amalgam of the two:

The DarkDale System

As far as real-time crawlers go, Dungeon Master is on one side of the spectrum, Eye of the Beholder or Legend of Grimrock, on the other. DarkDale will try to propose a hybrid solution between these two approaches, in an effort to correct some of the flaws pointed out on both sides. So there WILL be classes, and yet everyone WILL be able to learn every skill and use every item in the game. How is this going to work, you might ask? Well, everyone can do anything, but they are not equally good at it.
The system will revolve around the concept of skill modifier. Each class will be able to learn each skill, but at a different rate and/or skill points cost. For example, Fighters will be able to learn the Swords skill at a 100% rate, Rangers at a 75% rate, and Mages at a 25% rate. So at level-up, if you invest 4 skills points on the Swords skill of your fighter, it advances by 4 points, but you would only get an advance of 3 for the ranger, or 1 for the mage. If it was just that of course, no one would inefficiently invest skill points at a 25% rate, and rightly so. These skill modifiers will be able to change under three circumstances, making things a bit more dynamic:
  • At level 10 and level 20, characters will be able to chose one of two specialization paths specific to each class. It is possible to specialize twice in the same path, or pick one of each. Specializations give bonuses to skill modifiers for a specific set of skills. As a reference, we target chracters to reach level 25-30 by the endgame.
  • Unique game events will allow characters to become better in a skill. For example, a sage could accept to train one character to be more in connection with his magical energies, giving +25% to his magic skills. Do you use that to make your Mage an even better mage, or take the opprotunity to make your Palandin a bit of a better healer? Again, choices.
  • Some rare items will give bonuses to skill modifiers. We’ll keep these very very low in number however, as it opens the door for abuse and they lose their special status. Definitely not a standard enchantment you could craft on an item, even a high-level one.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
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Jun 15, 2009
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9,158
RT blobbers aka dungeon master clones are a perfectly fine and a viable style of games, it seems its one of the first kind of rpgs you played decades ago , like me. Those games can be really fun especially if you add a survival dimension to it, remember in chaos strikes back they throw you in the darkness with nothing at all ,not even a torch , that was challenging and no one dares to do it again. Since you are doing it as an hobby and not trying for big money you should make the game more challenging than usual , grimrock while great was a bit too easy.
In any case dont make it turn based if you cant add a LOT of strategic options,and challenging encounters .Better a well done dungeon master clone than a poor wizardry one, there's nothing worse than going turn based when nothing justify it .
 

Metro

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A new update, where I discuss combat a bit further and introduce the skills system: http://www.darkdale.net/2013/06/skills-and-combat/ :)

Going to quote a portion of the update that directly addresses a lot of people's concern about the 'combat mambo' and how you're tackling it:

Combat in DarkDale

To give a better picture of the skills system, let’s take a look at how combat skills will work, but first, a small discussion of combat itself. Many of you wondered why the combat is intended to be real-time instead of turn-based. Let me assure you that it is neither a buisness decision nor an attempt to make the game more “action” oriented. I love the tactical depth that turn-based RPGs have to offer, but I feel that there is still much design space unexplored in real-time crawlers.
The main critique of tile-based real-time dungeon crawlers is that you can essentially cheat your way through combat by just stepping around monsters and hitting them while they are facing another direction. While definitely an issue, I think that it is not an unsovable one, and it is the first thing that I started brainstorming about when approaching the DarkDale project. A few ideas:
  • Armor and evasion ratings, as well as protection spells, will have a more important effect, to encourage standing ground in fighting and making armor valuable. As it its, in Dungeon Master or Legend of Grimrock, if you just danced around monsters, having a shirt or a Plate Mail didn’t change anything, making finding better armor equipment a bit unrewarding.
  • Stun, paralysis, slow, webs and other similar effects will be more prevalent, to hinder constant running around.
  • Attacks will have to-hit penalties when striking at moving targets. Waiting for the monster to stop moving before attacking will guarantee a more efficient attack but also make it more dangerous. Again encourages standing fighting.
  • Running around will use stamina more quickly and, as we’ll see, stamina is required to use special attacks.
  • Monsters will have more special attacks or special AIs which play around the “two-step dance”. Legend of Grimrock introduced the side-attack for example, which was a good idea. More of the sort.
But all this won’t prevent combat from becoming boring and repetitive if there are no options for how to engage enemies. In Grimrock, exactly like in the Eye of the Beholder series, you had one option: you right-click the weapon, it hits or misses, and that’s it for the whole game. Grimrock‘s special attacks happened at random without any control from the player and weren’t adding much. Dungeon Master, on the other hand, proposed attack modes: you right-click the rapier, you get to Jab, Swing or Thrust. A great idea on paper, but poorly implemented. As the only thing that changed with better attack modes was that they dealt more damage at the cost of a longer cooldown, and that tradeoff was always at your advantage, there was no incentive to use anything but the best attack once you had the skill level to access it. So the system ended up in the same dead-end than the other games mentionned above, only with one mouse click more. Note also that in all those games, having a sword or a mace didn’t actually change much to the combat style either, apart having a different icon in your hand.
 

Ovg

Cipher
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Fuck it all. RT combat in blobbers always is and will be shit if they will go through with giving you a shitton of combat choices. It will be a huge clickfest as you try to use that perk or throw that magic arrow before the goblin rapes your face with his 0.5 second attack.
 

Gurkog

Erudite
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Oct 7, 2012
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The Great Northwest
Project: Eternity
RT blobbers, DotA clones, RTS games are all actions-per-second games. If you have an adjustable game speed even turn-based fags can have time enough to implement strategies. I am a TB fan, but can appreciate RT with adjustable speed too.
 

Metro

Arcane
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Two more updates in the last couple of weeks:

User-defined Skills

We weren’t sure about it at first, but finally decided to go for a fully moddable and scriptable skills system. The entire code that was handling champion’s attributes has been rewritten to allow that, and now everything skill-wise can be defined or changed in external lua files, from the name of the skill to what bonuses, perks or talents are obtained at each level. The only restriction (for now) is that it has to fit in one of the 5 skill categories (Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, Defense, Survival & Magic) and there can be 6 different skills per category. By the way, the original conception of a “Rogue” skill category has been renamed “Survival” and expanded to include Persuasion, Thieving, Traps, Crafstmanship, Sneaking and Perception skills, all spread out between different classes. More on what each one does later.

Plus some notes on artwork, resolutions, etc.

http://www.darkdale.net/2013/06/developer-update-2/

Artificial Intelligence in DarkDale

Our first creature, a small bat, has been now fully rigged, animated and imported into the game! Beyond the relatively straightforward task of creating the animations for the different actions (move, turn, attack…), and coding in the creature component to contain and manage all those animations in the game world, this required setting up the entire structure managing artificial intelligence and pathfinding (dungeon navigation). Artificial intelligence had to be flexible, adaptive and, most importantly, easily scriptable. After reading multiple articles on AI, trying to see what would be the best option, I finally stumbled on this interesting one, and decided to go ahead with a strcuture of layered Finite State Machines.
If you do not know what an FSM is, it is a simple control structure for artificial intelligence that has been prevalent in game development for a long time. The basic idea is that an entity is in one state at a time, such as moving, sleeping or attacking. Obviously, “attacking” involves doing a lot of different things, such as evading blows, striking, blocking… so FSMs evolved into Hierarchical FSMs (HFSMs), where each state can have multiple sub-states. While generally fine for simple tasks, this structure was deemed too rigid in the last decade to fullfil the more dynamic behavior requirements of open-world / sandbox games such as The Elder Scrolls. Different more advanced solutions have been found, such as Behavior Trees or Hierarchical Task Networks, but most of these seemed a bit overkill for a dungeon crawler.

http://www.darkdale.net/2013/07/developer-update-3/
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

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Oct 3, 2012
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Wow, this looks really great. The colors and overall style fits well together. The houses have just the right size, nicely detailed textures, even the spacing of the streets is right (and not giving a narrow, restrictive look). It really captures the oldschool feeling (e.g. Yvel town in LoL 1) while at the same time providing awesome visuals, worth of nowadays standard. This is the visual quality I had expected from Might & Magic X or any other remake of oldschool games. And not something cartoony with blurred textures. Keep the good work going!

BTW: I really dislike to enter the stupid image codes only to access the website... please do something against it, as it will certainly turn off many people trying to visit the project page, because they think they landed on an Error page.

Edit: weird, I already wrote once in this topic with an unfriendly manner. Sorry for that... I don't get it. I don't get myself. Maybe I was angry.
 
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hey theSavant , thanks for the kind comments! No offence for the previous words, I got into this project expecting a lot of "pfff, another Grimrock" reactions. It sure is, but I hope to make it more than that.

BTW, what image codes? To access the main blog on darkdale.net? I know there are captcha verifications to register on the forum (darkdale.net/forum/), but didn't think so on the main site. If I log off and try to access it I have direct access to the site. (?)

Crooked Bee, sure I'll be doing a kickstarter down the road. I'll just realized there was no rush for that, and taking the time to prepare a more developed game to show would be more beneficial in the end, to rally backers when I don't have a background in the game industry to speak for me. Probably somewhere in the spring for the campaign, I guess.
 
Self-Ejected

theSavant

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Yes, I had to enter image codes just to view the main page of darkdale (not the forum or blog or any other login, I'm not registered anyways). Like some kind of spam or DOS protection where the website provider wants me to verify I'm human. Currently it works again without, but yesterday I had to verify each time I visited the page (3 times). I don't know what's the exact reason for that, let's just hope it doesn't happen too often.
 

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