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Darghul, beta testing? forum?

NuZZ

Novice
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
12
Well you have announced the Darghul remake your developing, so im thinking, well im asking whether you need beta testers and so. But you obviously need to creat a new Draghul forum first... Now the game should be just like Teudogar (Haha ive memorized the name now) as ive seen in the screenshots (Draghul is using the Teudogar engine).
So will this have any online support of any kind? (even know its the teudogar engine...)
With the new forum id love to suggest a few things for dev. Like the storyline consists into a scifi world and into a prehistoric kind of roman world, or... Something of teh sort (Time travel rox, If a games got that, then ive got that game, I love the old Snes Chrono Trigger) So this is just, what is the game going to be about (the site you got is in german, this is probably for the english viewers :))

I like your work Wolf, haha so gimmie your betas when there availible, heh that would be fun... (Man this whole post is basicly asking you to make a forum so we can suggest things to make it a better game before you release it...)
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
Hello NuZZ, thanks, I'm glad that you like Teudogar so far, and are even already looking forward to Darghul. However, currently I've only got a limited amount of time for working on Darghul, so it may drag on for a while - i.e., no need for a forum yet.

The plot, persons, and dialogues already stand, because it's a remake of a classic German MSDOS RPG I wrote a very long time ago (and lots of people have called on me not to change a single thing there). (Text, dialogues, and website haven't been translated yet, so it may take some additional time until non-German-speakers can take a closer look at this game.) (I'll translate the website sometime soon / have it translated.)

Basically, DARGHUL is a 08/15-, J.R.R.Tolkien-inspired fantasy RPG: Evil king Gibur of Naramanca threatens to subdue the entire world with his supernaturally strong orc hordes; your task is to find some magical means of halting his advance. Although this probably sounds quite bland, the game seems to have had great appeal to a lot of people, and, despite its age, the ancient MSDOS version remains surprisingly popular up to the present day. There's a lot more combat, exploration, magic, booty, and character growth than in Teudogar - i.e., while Teudogar focuses more on the plot and the historical environment, Darghul offers lots of tradional role playing action (things to do instead of matters to contemplate).

It's based on the Teudogar engine. Unlike Teudogar, it has a single large game world (not just single locations you can travel to), so there'll be a lot to explore. The game world includes cities, castles and large dungeons (not just the identical straw-covered huts the Teutons had to do with). I've increased the graphics resolution to 800x600 (that way, your field of view is larger, and the graphics look less edgy - no more single pixels discernable Screenshot). There are a lot more spells and numerous magical objects, and of course there are lots of typical fantasy monsters to battle.

Basically the only thing that'll change about the engine will be the inventory; I haven't yet done it, but I intend to make it more like the current bartering tables in Teudogar, so objects should be more convenient to sort and access. Identical objects will be grouped in a single field (with access to every single one by clicking on small symbols below the field), i.e., if you had a sword, a heavily damaged sword, a damaged sword, and a brand new enchanted sword, they'd all be displayed in one field, but by clicking on the symbols right below the field, you could find and pick up e.g. the heavily damaged sword with a single click. (Clicking directly on the field would return the most valuable object, i.e. the brand new enchanted sword.) (The old, Teudogar-like kind of inventory will remain optionally available.)

Of course I'm always grateful for your suggestions. To all who read this posting: What other kinds of improvements would be most important to you? What do you consider the weakest points of Teudogar? Are there any specific improvements you'd suggest to ameliorate these? Is there anything particular you'd like to see changed (in comparison to Teudogar) about graphics, gameplay, combat, spellcasting, game world, etc? Your feedback would help me a lot. (You needn't log in to post something; simply use the Quick Reply-option below.) Thanks in advance!
 

NuZZ

Novice
Joined
Jul 7, 2004
Messages
12
Ha ha... Yes... This will be much better, but really I could not think of me playing a 1st person view 3D and all over this eagle eye 2D and all view. Know why? Becuase I dont... Bwah it just seem that I grew with it and now it just seems natural, but GTA: Vice City over the old GTA 2 i must say ROX.

Anyway keep it up we all wanna see it! And im bored as hell gimmie a beta or I will kill you and steal your settlement!! ... Or not!!
 

Anonymous

Guest
Hi Wolf, i'd like to make a suggestion. Add more interactivity to Dhargul, like in the Ultima games. For example in Teudogar there were lots of things that had no use, like kilns and weaving machines (the things you use to weave cloth). You should make such objects usable in Dhargul so you can craft your own objects and make money selling them. There should also be specific skills to each craft, like a pottery skill and weaving skill and so on that would let you create more advanced pots and clothing the higher your skill is. I would also love it if you added survival to the game, like in Teudogar but more advanced. There should be a hunger meter and when it gets full, you should die instead of just being slightly weakened like in Teudogar.


You should also be able to make lots of things yourself. For example weapons, primitive clothing, tools and armor. For example if you have an axe it would be cool if you could chop some wood and use it to make a wooden spear, or some other primitive weapon. Wounds should also be more advanced, you should be able to get hurt in different ways, like recieving bleeding cuts and stab wounds from sharp weapons, and bruises and broken bones from blunt weapons. And you should be able to completely treat them yourself using bandages and splints and so on, to make it more realistic, and if you don't treat a bleeding wound you should bleed to death. I know it's a longs list and you will probably only be able to add a few of these things (if any) but i think it would be really cool if you added some of it, or who know maybe even all of it :)
 

Anonymous

Guest
I also just remembered something i posted previously a long way back. I remember that i once recomended you take a look at a game called Unreal world (http://www.jmp.fi/~smaarane/urw.html) to get an idea of what improvements you could add to Dhargul. Well, i'd like to again recommend that you take a look at that game (there's a free demo avaliable) to get a general idea of what i think would be great additions to Dhargul. It has all the things i mentioned in my previous post, and i think it would absolutely RULE if Dhargul was like that game. I have a registered version of that game too BTW, so if you make Dhargul similar to it you can be sure that i'll buy it, just like i bought Teudogar :)


Thanks.
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
Hi Igor, thank you for your suggestions. (I'll also take a look at the game you recommended, without plagiarizing it, of course.)

----------

Using objects: I'll make sure that really every object is going to be usable in DARGHUL, and that there'll be lots of things you can produce (including basic weapons). (You can already brew magic potions, weave cloth, fish, repair weapons, and so on, for example.) (By the way, I'd already added some of this to Teudogar, too; e.g., since version 1.01, you can use looms to weave cloth, or the tools in a smithy to repair your weapons. You may still be playing version 1.00; there's an update patch available at http://www.teudogar.com/downl.htm.)

----------

Survival: In many games (and in Edgar Rice Burroughs novels), people die when they've been without food for three days. But in reality, actually even 40 days of complete starvation are unlikely to kill you. You can do without any food intake at all for quite a while; your body will live off its reserves up to the point where you've lost about 50% of your body weight. However, such a lifestyle would of course have consequences; it'd take a long time for you to regain your former weight and strength - and that's something I'll implement: If you go without food for too long, your strength attribute will afterwards remain impaired for a long period of time.

While few people die of starvation in the real world, you can't be without water for more than three days, depending on temperature. I might implement something like a water bag (rations for x days) that you'd need to fill and carry with you; however, in a more or less northern, rainy climate like the one in Teudogar (and in Darghul too), with rivers and brooks everywhere, that might be a bit pointless; besides, it could get cumbersome. I'll experiment a bit with this, though.

I've also yet to define distances and traveling times: The Darghul game world is about 4080x4080 fields/steps (that's 255 linked locations, each of which has 255x255 fields. (In comparison, Teudogar's two dozen locations (villages etc, the range you see in the Automap scren) were only 150x150 fields each.) So the Darghul game world is quite large (larger than Ultima's, I think), and definitely takes a while to explore (and a long while to create).
But even if I assume 255 fields to be 10 km, the entire 'continent' would still measure only 160 km - and that's a distance a hero (or even a software developer like myself) could conveniently cross on foot within less than a week, i.e., it'd be a bit hard to starve in such a world. (I may define the distances a bit more generously (say 25 km per 255 fields); but there's a limit to that; it'd look odd if it'd take you an entire day to walk from one end of a village to the other; and even then, overall distances would still be too short for real starving.)

----------

Wounds, differentiating between cuts/stabs/bruises/broken bones: That's a nice idea; I'll implement that (hits are already differentiated between cuts/stabs anyway; the hit you take then depends on the level of protection your particular kind of armor offers against that kind of attack; but the result is, up to now, just a general, unspecific loss of vitality).

Bleeding to death: You already do that in Teudogar if you've received several severe wounds. In real life, bleeding even from heavy wounds often seems to stop by itself once you've lost a certain amount of blood (due to falling blood pressure?) - so depending on how much you've lost, it may or may not be lethal. (Of course with some forms of internal bleeding, you may actually drown in your own blood.)

Healing: Since there's magic in Darghul, there'll be healing spells, perhaps even instant-healing. I'll have to decide that during gametesting (depending on how difficult it turns out to be to cope with all the monsters and other enemies you encounter). There'll be more you can do to heal yourself than in Teudogar, magically or otherwise.

----------

Thank you! Anyone else any suggestions / thoughts?
 

Anonymous

Guest
Well, since you asked for it, here are even more suggestions :)


A cool thing to do would be to be able to take on different professions to make money. For example renting an empty building in a city and turning it into some kind of shop or workshop like a store or a blacksmith or a carpenters workshop. Maybe there could be some kind of menu in the shop that you used to order raw materials, and then the money would be deducted from your total money and the raw materials would arrive the next day. Then you could produce different goods or items and then sell them. That would be cool. Or you could go around to different places and ask for a job yourself, if you didn't feel like setting up a permanent shop.


I think the water idea you were experimenting with is really good, you should keep it. And you should make it so that if you don't drink regularly you die. You shouldn't just be limited to one water container. You should be able to make your own, like wooden cups and bowls, and large "water skins" from animal hides.


Finally, a great addition would be weather. Rain, snow, blizzards and all that. And all the four seasons too. You should have to wear different clothes during different seasons too, like warm clothes during the winter, or light clothes during the summer or you would freeze to death in the winter, or be weakened during the summer if you wore too many clothes ín the heat.


Building different buildings too would be cool. You shouldn't be able to sleep outside during bad weather like rain or snowstorms, and if it rains or snows you should be forced to build some kind of shelter, ranging from a primitive rain shelter to a permanent cottage. Or maybe the engine can't handle that. Anyway it would be cool. Also cooking your own food and making different recipes would be cool too. For example you could make flour and bake bread from it, or use it to make something more advanced like a pie if you added fruit to it.
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
Hi Igor, thanks for your additional suggestions.

Adding some craftsmanship and merchant functionality wouldn't be such a lot of work. I'll see if I can implement this. Cooking etc is easy, too. Programming artificially intelligent customers who'd wander into your shop would be difficult; but you could simply sell the stuff you produce to other merchants or to people you talk to and barter with.

Weather: Rain is something I can implement without much trouble. However, seasons, and especially snow, would be more difficult (and expensive) to implement, due to the huge amount of graphic tiles that would have to be available in seasonally different versions (e.g. trees with/without leaves and so on).

Survival: Your reaction to temperature/rain is once again a question of simulation detail depth (like the water issue). Too much detail might feel bothersome; i.e. if you'd have to brush your character's teeth three times a day, put on gloves in cold weather, make sure you've got enough drinking water, and maybe even have to urinate/defecate, you'd spend your gaming time with a lot of clicking around, doing things that aren't that exciting. Excluding these things from gameplay leaves you free to focus on plot and game world. On the other hand, integrating them might make the whole game feel more real, and possibly enhance your identification with your character. (E.g., after having fed and groomed and cared for your character for several weeks, you'd probably feel much stronger about receiving a severe wound during a battle.) Does anyone else have any opinion on this? Do you want more character simulation detail depth, or just the amount you had in Teudogar, or less? (You needn't log in to post.)
 

ecliptic

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
915
Greetings! Once I get some extra $$$ I'm definitely picking up Teudogar. I know it's quite affordable, but I'm remarkably poor at the moment.

As for food and drink, I think it should be a passive thing in so far as consumption of them are concerned. I hate it in games when I constantly have to feed my party. I don't mind it in Nethack or ADOM, but those are very down in the dirt games. Not a lot of the travelling is in places you've already been. That tends to not be the case so much with normal RPGs.

While I enjoyed the combat in the demo of Teudogar, since it is turn-based I would enjoy if there were a few more options as to how you carry out your attack, but I do see the merits in the relative lack of complexity and streamliney-ness of the current system. It's hard to say, I guess it depends on the focus of the game and how the rest of it comes together.

Great job Wolf, I wish you success in your endeavors.
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
Hi ecliptic, and thank you!

Eating/drinking: If I implement drinking, the automatic eating function will take care of this, too; all you'd need to do would be to check and refill your water skin from time to time. But I'm not sure if that option makes sense at all in this game world (there's some water almost everywhere). Besides, since there's magic and since the game world is quite large, you'd usually travel by teleportation magic anyway once you've acquired that spell. So I'll probably leave eating etc just like it was in Teudogar - and maybe write a different RPG without magic and with strong survival elements some time after DARGHUL.

As to combat, I'll let you choose manually between stabbing and slashing/beating, and which part of your opponent's body you want to attack. (Up to now, these choices are made automatically.) I'm currently experimenting with how to integrate this into the user interface without complicating things. Simple clicking on your opponent should still lead to an automatic choice; these manual options will perhaps be used by holding down a key while attacking, or by pre-selecting your target range via a sort of target selector table in the inventory.
 

Anonymous

Guest
I just thought of something else. Money. In teudogar, after you kept trading with the merchant in Cattanford for a while, he would eventually run out of gold/silver coins. Same goes for products. Once you bought all his wine or jewlery for example, you could never buy any more. You should put a lot more traders in Dhargul (there was only one in Teudogar) There should be at least 3 or 4 in Dhargul, and they should also restock their goods so that you can keep coming back and buy more of a certain product if you want. For example, every 2 or 3 days their supplies should increase automatically with 2 or 3 goods of each type, and a few hundred coins as well so that you can keep going out into the wilderness and killing things and then come back to the merchants and sell everything. Unless of course you're already implementing this :)
 

Anonymous

Guest
Also, how will stats be handled in dhargul? In teudogar my stats never increased no matter how much i played. even if i carried around tons of stuff for several months my strength would never go up. same goes for intelligence and dexterity. The only things that would change were the skills, like sword/spear combat, shield skill, faith, perception and so on. make it so that you can actually increase your stats the more you use it. the more you carry around heavy things, the more your strength should go up so you can carry lots of stuff without any penalties.
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
Hello Guest,

the Cattanford merchant shouldn't run out of money; rather the opposite, when you trade with him, he should actually sell off the stuff you sold to him as soon as you're away; so when you travel for a couple of days, on your return he should have some fresh gold and silver (though admittedly, fewer goods - after all, the war has interrupted the trade routes, so there aren't any fresh amphorae of wine coming in from Gaul any more). Apart from this merchant, there are a handful of craftsmen in Teudogar - smiths, weavers, people who make leather goods, pots or torches etc; these at least keep producing new stuff (check the boxes and chests in their houses).

The basic problem with Teudogar is that its plot is set in a barbaric, non-monetary environment. There was almost no trade in Germania; most people could produce all they needed on their farmsteads; and people who made lots of booty usually wouldn't consider exchanging this for money (what for? there wasn't that much one could buy for money), but instead rather hoard the weapons etc they'd captured; after all, these had both lasting value as well as a practical use. This'll be much different in DARGHUL; since that's not a historical but a fantasy game, it's quite a consumer's paradise with lots of merchants as well as stuff worth buying.

Stats: You're probably still playing Teudogar 1.00. I'd originally thought that, the few months' time the plot covers wouldn't be sufficient to really increase your basic attributes (dexterity etc); and besides I was a bit queasy about the whole concept of increasing one's attributes by practice: I.e., if you've got an IQ of 110, you will still have an IQ of 110 after graduating from university; your intelligence doesn't really change over the course of your lifetime (apart from possible declines caused by illness); the only thing you can really increase are your skills (which decide on how effectively you can apply your intelligence). While I still believe this with regard to intelligence, I admit that it's absurd with regard to strength; there one can obviously archieve significant increases even within a few weeks of training. Consequently I've implemented gain of strength and dexterity starting with Teudogar version 1.01 (you can download an update patch for earlier full versions from http://www.teudogar.com/downl.htm; if you're using an older Demo version, you can download and install the latest Demo over your present installation; in both cases, your saved games will remain fully usable).

Carrying around heavy things leading to increase in strength: I will implement this in DARGHUL. (In Teudogar, at present your increases in strength and dexterity will mostly come from combat and combat practice.) I agree that carrying a heavy load should make you get used to it; besides, wearing heavy armor should also increase your strength over time.

Thank you for your suggestions!
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
BTW, display of stats: In DARGHUL I've returned to displaying all stats in actual numbers, since many people found the "strong", "sorta strong", "rather strong" used in Teudogar pretty unmeaningful. The output in DARGHUL is now something like "Strength: 100 (average)" or "110 (good)".

I've also significantly improved the inventory in DARGHUL (http://www.darghul.com/darg14.gif); you can now carry several bags with you, enabling you to better sort the stuff you're carrying around; identical objects are grouped together in one field; when picking up objects you're asked how many of these you want to move; when you use the quick-pickup-function, the object you picked up will be automatically be placed into a bag where there already are similar objects; and a number of other improvements; it's definitely a lot more convenient now.

I've also (not yet visible on the screenshot above) increased the number of weapons/other things you can carry on your belt/in your pockets (in DARGHUL; not in Teudogar, since Germanic clothes had no pockets). So e.g. you could now carry 5 throwing axes with you and hurl them against your approaching opponents one after the other; or use a particular magical object or healing potion or magical teleportation scroll when things get tough during a battle.
 

Anonymous

Guest
So when exactly will the game be released. It's been 1.5 years since Tueodgar was released. I want Darghul dammit!!! :D



And have you started beta testing yet? In that case, can i be a beta tester?
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
> when exactly will the game be released
Hello Igor, well, sometime in 2005. It's already complete in most respects (engine, game world, plot, text), but there still remains a lot of work to do.

> started beta testing yet?
Yes and no; at this stage I'm mostly doing my own testing; with each round of testing I add a couple of hundred points to my To-Do list (mostly minor bugs and gameplay/gameworld aspects that aren't yet fully satisfactory); before starting a new round, I want to fix these points.

> In that case, can i be a beta tester?
Absolutely. Thanks for this offer! When I've finished my current To-Do list, I'll make a beta version available in this forum, and I'll be very happy if I receive lots of error reports and feedback.

> If you need another forum, Wolf, just ask.
Thank you, Saint Proverbius! I definitively will. (All the comments and suggestions I received from the Teudogar forum have helped me a lot in improving the game and getting things right - again, my thanks to all who've posted!) However, so far DARGHUL still hasn't been translated; as long as there only exists a German version, a RPGCodex Forum would be premature. I'll get back to this as soon as it's fully translated.
 

Anonymous

Guest
Maybe i could help you with the translation? I don't speak german, but i can use babelfish to translate it, and then correct all the gramatical and spelling mistakes that babelfish makes. How about it?
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
Thank you for this offer, Igor! Several people are already working on the translation (it's quite a lot of text); however, some additional proofreading and error-checking would certainly be great.
 

Wolf Mittag

Wolf Mittag Software Development
Developer
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
Messages
331
Location
Shanghai
Alright, I will (though it may yet take some time until the files are complete & ready). Thank you!
(BTW, I've taken the liberty to censor your e-mail address above, because I assume that if you leave it posted there, you'd soon be receiving such an enormous amount of spam that you could no longer use it.)

Well, and now I probably better return to work on DARGHUL. If anyone else happens to have any particular suggestions or wishes regarding this game, I'd of course love to hear from you...
 

Igor

Novice
Joined
Jun 26, 2005
Messages
31
Location
Rand of the lising sun.
The only suggestions i have are that if the game is anything like Teudogar (does it have slaves?) then follow the suggestions in Greylocke's thread about Teudogar. More stuff to spend your money on, more ways to make money (your own businesses for example), hireable NPC bodyguards/henchmen and the ability to tell your slaves what to do. Unless it's too much work for you Wolf ;)
 

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