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Daggerfall was better than Morrowind? Tell me why.

Self-Ejected

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Daggerfall is full of randomly copy/paste generated towns and dungeons. The world is huge but it is the same everywhere. Dungeon, wilderness and town tiles are the same.
The most annoying thing is that guards can see through walls and it makes stealing ridiculously difficult.(oh also you can shoot arrows through doors XD )
 

LeStryfe79

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Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Codex USB, 2014 Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I bought Morrowind 13 years ago, and immediately used the editor to make a bad ass version of Alex Lifeson, lead guitarist of Rush. I gave him a magic lute(which he used like a quarterstaff) and a cool robe, then killed everyone I came across for the next 2 hours.

photo-of-alex-lifeson-and-rush-alex-lifeson-performing-live-onstage-picture-id84883202


Its was pretty fun. I never played the game for real but Steve Blum gave it an 8/ 10.

 
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Divine Blessing

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memories of childhood tend to be distorted in size (and quality)

the improvement in content, detail and range from TES:Arena to TES DF was a quantum leap for the genre. DF had no comparable competitors (Ultima VIII? DSA? Ishtar? Albion? Menzobarranzan?) at release. While the less innovative, but much more elaborated MW had to compete with the Gothics, Fallouts, BGs: a comparision most titles fail to succeed even today
 

Silentrider

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I just finished Arena after 2 years of playing with very long (multiple month) breaks. The problem is that the game is pretty boring most of the time. The only things you need to visit in the game are the main quest dungeons and shops, the rest is pointles. The dungeons were good enough and I'd say that it's a mediocre game.
By reading this thread I see that Daggerfall isn't much better in that regard even though it seems to have better character development.

So, is Daggerfall worth playing? Are the main quest dungeons as good or better than Arena's? Is there something to do besides them?
 

Zed Duke of Banville

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So, is Daggerfall worth playing? Are the main quest dungeons as good or better than Arena's? Is there something to do besides them?
Daggerfall has joinable guilds: Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, eight temples to the Divines (similar but with some differences), and knightly orders in certain regions (10 total). Each of these offers services and advancement, though in order to advance through their ranks you need to both meet their skill requirements and also complete quests for them. Procedural generation is used to create quests from certain templates, with each type of guild having its own set of templates (each temple also has one unique quest template in addition to their common quest templates). Furthermore, you can obtain other kinds of procedurally-generated quests from random NPCs, primarily merchants and nobles, and then there are the hard-to-obtain Daedric quests with a powerful artifact as a reward.

Not only does Daggerfall allow more character customization than was possible in Arena, it does so to an extent that is arguably unsurpassed by any single-character RPG. This degree of class customization not only is important for joining guilds but also has great effects on gameplay, adding to Daggerfall's replayability (though, to be sure, a single playthrough of Daggerfall is generally quite lengthy).
 
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No, Daggerfall is not worth playing. Unless you are just a completionist.

It does have some nice things, but ultimately, they are like specs of light in a huge, pointless, endless empty vessel. People say stuff like Daggerfall tried new things, it had an amazing scope, etc. But the truth is, you can trace the roots of Bethesda's decline and incompetence in Daggerfall. Sure, it had a great premise, giant procedural world with procedural content. But it took the lazy Bethesda way to implement that. Just like today, Bethesda skimps on combat design and graphics and writing, back then they skimped on procedural elements. Instead of doing anything interesting with the procedural stuff (ala Dwarf Fortress or ADOM), they just plopped down some shallow repetitive crap and somehow expected people to be interested in it.
 

Hellion

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I did some "research" for an editorial article back in August for Daggerfall's 20th anniversary. Apparently the project was understaffed (Julian Lefay, the "father" of the Elder Scrolls, has claimed that at some point the game only had one programmer: him) and rushed (the team wanted to release the game in 1997, but Bethesda insisted on a "summer-autumn 1996" release), so they were forced to cut a lot of content like mounted enemies, dragons, extra factions, locations, songs even (some of these can still be found withing the game's files) and do lousy QA before its release.

Lefay has called Daggerfall "the biggest missed opportunity of his life". Who knows how it would have turned out if it had been released as intended.

It's still great though, behind my tinted nostalgia goggles.
 

Silentrider

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Daggerfall has joinable guilds: Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, eight temples to the Divines (similar but with some differences), and knightly orders in certain regions (10 total). Each of these offers services and advancement, though in order to advance through their ranks you need to both meet their skill requirements and also complete quests for them. Procedural generation is used to create quests from certain templates, with each type of guild having its own set of templates (each temple also has one unique quest template in addition to their common quest templates). Furthermore, you can obtain other kinds of procedurally-generated quests from random NPCs, primarily merchants and nobles, and then there are the hard-to-obtain Daedric quests with a powerful artifact as a reward.

Not only does Daggerfall allow more character customization than was possible in Arena, it does so to an extent that is arguably unsurpassed by any single-character RPG. This degree of class customization not only is important for joining guilds but also has great effects on gameplay, adding to Daggerfall's replayability (though, to be sure, a single playthrough of Daggerfall is generally quite lengthy).

Arena also had those procedural quest but they were dull (escort, fed-ex) and had weak rewards.
Is it also like that or are they better?
 

Wayward Son

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Daggerfall has joinable guilds: Fighters Guild, Mages Guild, Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, eight temples to the Divines (similar but with some differences), and knightly orders in certain regions (10 total). Each of these offers services and advancement, though in order to advance through their ranks you need to both meet their skill requirements and also complete quests for them. Procedural generation is used to create quests from certain templates, with each type of guild having its own set of templates (each temple also has one unique quest template in addition to their common quest templates). Furthermore, you can obtain other kinds of procedurally-generated quests from random NPCs, primarily merchants and nobles, and then there are the hard-to-obtain Daedric quests with a powerful artifact as a reward.

Not only does Daggerfall allow more character customization than was possible in Arena, it does so to an extent that is arguably unsurpassed by any single-character RPG. This degree of class customization not only is important for joining guilds but also has great effects on gameplay, adding to Daggerfall's replayability (though, to be sure, a single playthrough of Daggerfall is generally quite lengthy).

Arena also had those procedural quest but they were dull (escort, fed-ex) and had weak rewards.
Is it also like that or are they better?
Daggerfall was much better in this respect.
 

V_K

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One thing Daggerfall certainly has over Arena (and any other TES for that matter) is a much better story - based on local politics rather than saving the world and with a ton of branching.
 
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Charles Eli Cheese

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MW flaws:
Index wikipedia NPC's/no real dialogue
Boring story line
Unreacting world
Theft is ridiculously easy
No mounts/mounted combat
Lockpicking is still too simple, traps are pointless
Monster AI is terrible (stuck, can't jump, run when you leap over their heads)
THE VOID
Last boss is not a challenge and have no choice but to fight him
Too easy to become too powerful too fast
No houses or ships to own
No fast travel (DF style)
Numerous patched/unpatched bugs
Magic is nerfed
Dungeons are mostly too small
Shop keepers have too little money (what do I do with 300 daedric katanas?)
Nothing to spend money on when you are rich (which is also much too easy)
Swimming with 1000 lbs of loot...
Becoming a vampire is pointless

DF flaws:
Indexer NPC's (plus what the hell are you wearing!?)
Towns are too random (nothing of real differing interest, even Kansas has tourist traps)
Nothing interesting for miles if you set out from town (pointless to not use fast travel)
Door bashing bugs
"Halt Halt Halt" (aneorism)
Theft is ridiiculously buggy, difficult (pickpocket a monster in a town...)
Guards are only after you, never after anyone after you.
Enemies get stuck too easily
Dungeon's are too random, big (poorly made, pasted together, no flow, de ja vu, no real different interest)
Loitering in shops to do midnight shoplifting (nobody does a thing)
Merchant's have infiinite money
Merchant's buy back goods stolen from them
No guild requirement info (a lot of guessing here unless you use the beginner's guide)
Crime rep is bugged (whether guilty or not...you are pond scum, or pickpocket the guard before he arrests you and you only get charged for that)
THE VOID
Looking up and down is very limited (see that hole, go climb it, good luck, break a leg...literally.)
No way to really tell rep unless they hate you or love you.
Quest bugs galore...("The Nest of Aneloth" this target does not exist on map, does not exist, does not exist ARRRGGHHH!)
Paralyze = instant death, especially at low levels when it happens too often and you can't get ahold of potions/items
Shooting arrows through doors...
Patched/unpatched bugs galore
Still fairly unreactive world

What a dumbshit list.

real flaws:

MW flaws:
CONSOLIZED and therefore worthless
written by teenagers apparently
No gameplay
level scaled, and therefore worthless
You can complete it in literally 10 minutes.

Daggerfall flaws:
Buggy, that's it. But you can work around it.
And most the shit you list as a flaw is pure BS or even incline

MW benefits:
can use the CD as a coaster

Daggerfall benefits:
you CAN walk around and just find cool stuff
You can find random shit that is way above your level, too
Story is interesting.
LONG
Cool procedurally generated towns and dungeons
Crafting and magic system awesome, not gimped and retarded like MW
 

Wayward Son

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Okay Chuck, time to point out some of the flaws of your arguments:

level scaled, and therefore worthless
Morrowind had the least level-scaling of the series. Also, games like M&M II had level-scaling and were still decent enough (actually, M&M 2 is generally considered above average, if not great).
You can complete it in literally 10 minutes.
Sure, if you have all the prior knowledge of everything's location and exactly how to execute everything. But that actually requires having played the game.
Buggy, that's it. But you can work around it.
Actually, I've only encountered one major problem (a black void clipping error) that I didn't intentionally cause with the latest patch.
you CAN walk around and just find cool stuff
In the outer world? It's mostly empty, and while aimlessly wandering can net you a few "huh, that's cool" moments, you have to wander for hours to find it. Daggerfall is great, but don't pretend that lot's of overworld hidden content is one plus.
Some might say overly so. For some with limited play time, this is a major negative
Cool procedurally generated towns and dungeons
While the towns and some dungeons were pretty cool, the term "spaghetti dungeon" exists to describe this game for a reason.
You can find random shit that is way above your level, too
Well actually, for the most part, the game is scaled to your level (although definitely to a lesser extent than, say, Oblivion or Skyrim), but you still have a SMALL chance of encountering things outside of a specified range above your level (you could always encounter weaker things than you). While you could encounter high level enemies at any time, the chance was based on your level. As such, level-scaled.
 
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Charles Eli Cheese

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Okay Chuck, time to point out some of the flaws of your arguments:


Morrowind had the least level-scaling of the series. Also, games like M&M II had level-scaling and were still decent enough (actually, M&M 2 is generally considered above average, if not great).

No it didn't shit for brains. You obviously NEVER played Daggerfall, which only has level scaling for random encounters. So obviously EVERYTHING you say is going to be bullshit but I will soldier on.

Sure, if you have all the prior knowledge of everything's location and exactly how to execute everything. But that actually requires having played the game.

Meaning there is no challenge to this game at all, no real gameplay, just "learning" aka 'talking" to random retards. Which is no feat because you just wander around talking to this guy then the other, no figuring out anything. IE it's all busywork. A whole game of busywork.

You can't even get though ONE large dungeon in Daggerfall or Arena in the time it takes to

Actually, I've only encountered one major problem (a black void clipping error) that I didn't intentionally cause with the latest patch.

There's plenty of bugs but you can avoid them.

In the outer world? It's mostly empty, and while aimlessly wandering can net you a few "huh, that's cool" moments, you have to wander for hours to find it. Daggerfall is great, but don't pretend that lot's of overworld hidden content is one plus.

Lies and hyperbole. Hours of wlaking? lol

maybe 5 minutes and you will come to something interesting to explore/loot, and get items that are way above your current level.

Some might say overly so. For some with limited play time, this is a major negative

If your time is so limited, watch a movie.

While the towns and some dungeons were pretty cool, the term "spaghetti dungeon" exists to describe this game for a reason.

So what.

Well actually, for the most part, the game is scaled to your level (although definitely to a lesser extent than, say, Oblivion or Skyrim), but you still have a SMALL chance of encountering things outside of a specified range above your level (you could always encounter weaker things than you). While you could encounter high level enemies at any time, the chance was based on your level. As such, level-scaled.

Bullshit. the game is only scaled for random encounters fuck for brains. The areas all have their own level. You won't get assigned to go there on quests til you meet that level but you can go any time.

And in spite of your whining and crying and lying it takes just a couple minutes walking in any direction to find some dungeon to explore. It was the first game that had such a large world, and it was a real one too not some bullshit you are railroaded to go to x and y and then z.

In felchwind you can go to a bunch of places that are all the same because based on your level. There's nothing interesting to explore, all the dungeons are shit, the combat mechanics are comical, and anyone who likes it is a complete and utter moron.
 

Wayward Son

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No it didn't shit for brains. You obviously NEVER played Daggerfall, which only has level scaling for random encounters. So obviously EVERYTHING you say is going to be bullshit but I will soldier on.
A) Still level-scaling
B) I've played plenty of Daggerfall
C) You didn't address my other point about other games that have level-scaling (specifically M&M II) being good.
D) Morrowind only scaled some random encounters and within a range based on world location. And all dungeons, no matter how shit (which isn't a point that I disagree with BTW) have hand-placed enemies, so you can wander upon Greater Bonewalkers (higher level enemies who drain Strength on hit) or Daedra at level 1 or 2. Oh, and random encounters are actually relatively rare, barring the cliff racers.
Meaning there is no challenge to this game at all, no real gameplay, just "learning" aka 'talking" to random retards. Which is no feat because you just wander around talking to this guy then the other, no figuring out anything. IE it's all busywork. A whole game of busywork.
This requires going from town to town, checking out all the shops, finding certain encounter (Scrolls of Icarian Flight), knowing where to get certain spells without requiring guild advancement (IIRC, admittedly, been a while since I saw the video). Also, one could just, you know, play it more legitimately and not abuse this stuff that requires massive amounts of meta-game knowledge. It's not a very difficult game, you know. And this isn't something that you have to avoid a whole facet of the game to not do.
Lies and hyperbole. Hours of wlaking? lol
Admittedly, this is from slightly limited experience from wandering, so I'll concede this point to you.
This term was coined as a derisive aimed at the illogicality of the layout and the bad design of some of these dungeons. One that I can remember was where a dungeon had an isolated room that was a 4x4 block that couldn't be accessed by the rest of the map, but was labeled as a possible quest target location. So, your target could be in there, and without abusing a glitch, you couldn't access it. From what I saw, this isn't a problem that is isolated to a few misfires in the program. From what I read while trying to figure this out, it's actually fairly common of an issue.
Bullshit. the game is only scaled for random encounters fuck for brains.
Which is the majority of the encounters you will experience since there is a larger number of encounters in procedural dungeons and in the over-world than in the story dungeons put together, which are the only place you could put in a non-random encounter. Every other encounter is randomly generated inside the dungeon.
The areas all have their own level. You won't get assigned to go there on quests til you meet that level but you can go any time.
The areas are leveled. They then go down in said range until they either meet your level or reach their minimum level, which is usually relatively low.
And in spite of your whining and crying and lying it takes just a couple minutes walking in any direction to find some dungeon to explore. It was the first game that had such a large world, and it was a real one too not some bullshit you are railroaded to go to x and y and then z.
MY whining and crying? Chuck, you spent that entire post calling me a liar and a fuck for brains for disagreeing with you while calmly explaining my points. And I never said it wasn't gigantic. Or that it was railroaded or linear or anything like that.
In felchwind you can go to a bunch of places that are all the same because based on your level.
No. Almost every encounter in the game is hand-placed, or told to randomly generate from a pool based on region, with some being inherently higher than others.
all the dungeons are shit, the combat mechanics are comical,
I don't actually disagree with this. And I actually prefer Daggerfall. I'm just pointing out some things that I saw that were (from my experience with these two games) wrong or flawed.

Also, at some points, I think you are mixing up Oblivion and Morrowind. Maybe I'm wrong there though.
 

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