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Daggerfall, fucking Daggerfall

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
Well the main quest ones had at least a scrap of a "this might be an actual building used for something" feeling, but the randomly generated sidequest ones were beyond human comprehension. A grand entrance hall with a small wooden door leading to a 500 ft drop as its only exit and other such greatness.

But it wouldn't be such a problem if the map wasn't the worst thing humans have ever created. I'm still convinced that some of the randomly generated sidequests dungeons were literally not possible to complete.

That's why the devs added keyboard shortcuts to one of the later patches which enabled you to cycle through the hotspots of a dungeon, iirc. I think it was the brackets. It was prominently featured in the patch notes.
 
Joined
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Messages
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Glass Fields, Ruins of Old Iran
Well, Morrowind goes for the "this looks plausible" angle, and the result are little tombs and caves that I've seen being called "babby's first dungeon". The dwemer strongholds are probably the more imposing ones of the bunch but they are also over when you're just done getting warmed up.
 

GlutenBurger

Cipher
Joined
May 8, 2010
Messages
644
Well the main quest ones had at least a scrap of a "this might be an actual building used for something" feeling, but the randomly generated sidequest ones were beyond human comprehension. A grand entrance hall with a small wooden door leading to a 500 ft drop as its only exit and other such greatness.

They were unrealistic and often completely unplayable, but it was still cool to open up a new dungeon and see how you'd fare against each fresh absurdity. It's a feature that really deserved to be perfected over the course of the sequels. They could probably have halved the scripted stuff and still have better games for it.
 

Stella Brando

Arcane
Joined
Oct 5, 2005
Messages
8,969
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Castle Volkihar
Forget all that Star Wars stuff, I have a new theory.

The Elder Scrolls = Jennifer Connelly

jennifer-connelly_480_poster.jpg
400px-DF_Custom_Class_Creation.jpg




th
th


Edit: Damn, wrong thread.
 

Scroo

Female Quota Staff
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Codex 2014 Codex Year of the Donut Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Dungeons of death. I tried to like the game, I really did but those dungeons drove me insane. And the randomized quests, randomized quests basically aren't a very good idea.

"Oh shit I live in this huge city but have a giant bear trapped in my attic all of a sudden, better call the warrior's guild to have it removed".

Wat?!
 

Darth Roxor

Royal Dongsmith
Staff Member
Joined
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Djibouti
Dungeons of death. I tried to like the game, I really did but those dungeons drove me insane. And the randomized quests, randomized quests basically aren't a very good idea.

"Oh shit I live in this huge city but have a giant bear trapped in my attic all of a sudden, better call the warrior's guild to have it removed".

Wat?!

You mean that never happened to you?

Figures you don't live in a huge city.
 

a cut of domestic sheep prime

Guest
Daggerfall is easy. The dungeons are easy. You're just not used to finding your way around a decent sized map in this age of quest compasses and dungeons with a convenient little exit at the bottom.

This is the end result of the dumbing down of games: the players themselves have gotten dumber.
:happytrollboy:
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
I used to think that secret doors in pre-1996 games were ridiculous, and was amazed that the developers expected players to find them.

Then I realized that nearly every game had such secret doors, and players back then were accustomed to finding them. It was not a big deal, and they always knew to click on walls or look for a wall with a different looking texture.

Similarly, I thought it was ridiculous that Betrayal at Krondor had "illusionary mountains", and that if you tried to walk through them, you'd discover secret hidden areas on the other side. But as I played more and more old games, it seemed that an illusionary wall or an illusionary mountain was the most standard and obvious thing to expect.

heh i remember plaing old SNES and finding out button combinations or glitching games and this was almost every game.
Now i am fucking old and i can't figure out for hour stupid puzzle for brain-dead people.
Different strokes imo. Back then you would explore same dungeons and find secret doors because that was normal.
 

Gnidrologist

CONDUCTOR
Joined
Aug 30, 2005
Messages
20,856
Location
is cold
Daggerfall is easy. The dungeons are easy. You're just not used to finding your way around a decent sized map in this age of quest compasses and dungeons with a convenient little exit at the bottom.

This is the end result of the dumbing down of games: the players themselves have gotten dumber.
:happytrollboy:
I prefer dungeons to be as small and streamlined as possible or none present at all, because in all fairness - dungeons are boring. In most games they are bleak repetitive systems of corridors that are there only for loot and monsters to kill. When they are large and complex it also involves LOTS of backtracking that makes the experience even more cumbersome. Dungeons are good for lazy level designers, because it doesn't involve much work. Small dungeons is one thing i liked about Morrowind, because i much prefer to explore the open world above, descending into dungeon only if needed for questing or to add different flavor from time to time.
 

Stella Brando

Arcane
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I'm going to finish the mainquest, although I'm consulting a walkthrough to speed things up. Yeah I know, :decline:.

Maybe I have mild claustrophobia or something, I just don't like the dungeons.

I guess I'll never make a good basement dweller.

Part of the appeal of medieval or historical fantasy is getting away from technology - to me that suggests hunting, camping outside, walking through forests, watching the sunset, being close to nature, enjoying a simpler pace. Outdoorsy things.

But I understand everyone's different. To each is own.

I didn't finish the mainquest, back in the nineties, so I may as well do it now.

I've taken this opportunity to do things I didn't do when Daggerfall came out - like make a stealth character (doesn't really work, not like Thief or something), and read the books (Barenziah is awesome).

Then onto replaying Morrowind - I have a feeling it's stood the test of time quite well, and I'll appreciate it more than I used to.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,205
Location
Ingrija
after 20 years of thinking about it, i've come to the conclusion that arena is better.

Arena had the Passwall spell, gotta give it to them. Made spelunking far, far more tolerable.

To think how much did we lost when game locations stopped being made out of small uniform lego blocks...
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
Patron
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Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
I prefer dungeons to be as small and streamlined as possible or none present at all, because in all fairness - dungeons are boring. In most games they are bleak repetitive systems of corridors that are there only for loot and monsters to kill. When they are large and complex it also involves LOTS of backtracking that makes the experience even more cumbersome.
There is no need for backtracking in Daggerfall dungeons, n00b.
Just levitate/crouch on those stairs, stand up et voilà, you're free to explore the dungeon at your own leisure.
:troll: ...
At least that's how I think it worked, it's a long time since I last played that game.
Out there in the void even the maps start to make sense, and the most fun part was trying to find pieces of dungeons that were not connected to the main dungeon, because the procedural dungeon generator was kinda broken. Felt adventurous ... like exploring uncharted lands or something.

My favorite dungeons were natural caves and that awesome sinister necromancer dungeon ... Scroug Barrow. Very good atmosphere and layout.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
1,258
Use a goddamn pen and paper, idiots. And maybe drop an item at junctions towards whence you came to find where you came back.

This "randomized dungeons" myth just won't die: non-MQ dungeons are procedurally pregenerated into a number of templates and all the dungeons in the game use one of these templates. There are no "randomized" dungeons. I do wish they actually were procedurally generated to keep the exploration fresh.

No other game captures what DF dungeons did for me. After a long incursion, it was a relaxing experience to backtrack, passing through halls and junctions that have already become familiar to you by now, such that you feel like the place has become a part of yourself. You have gazed long into the abyss and now the abyss have also gazed into you. A subtle sadness that you have put behind another frantic experience and now you are going home.

Sadly, the feeling disappears in high levels.

But I lament the lack of a proper wilderness in the game and naturally, things that could have been done with it.

Daggerfall has some that involve going to a house to bodyguard someone, but about 99% of the time the person, the house or both don't actually exist and if they do you get attacked by a scorpion or something when you enter and the quest breaks.

That just means that for the 99% of your tries, you have failed to locate the house and the person. I don't know about breaking quests, though. I haven't had that since... late 98. That's when 2.13 came out.
 

NotAGolfer

Arcane
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Land of Bier and Bratwurst
Divinity: Original Sin 2
This "randomized dungeons" myth just won't die: non-MQ dungeons are procedurally pregenerated into a number of templates and all the dungeons in the game use one of these templates. There are no "randomized" dungeons. I do wish they actually were procedurally generated to keep the exploration fresh.
I hope you didn't answer to me. o.O
If so, then thank you for pointing out what I already knew, Captain Obvious.
 
Last edited:

Tramboi

Prophet
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Paris by night
Daggerfall is easy. The dungeons are easy. You're just not used to finding your way around a decent sized map in this age of quest compasses and dungeons with a convenient little exit at the bottom.

This is the end result of the dumbing down of games: the players themselves have gotten dumber.

Of course if Daggerfall dungeons somewhat resembled an human construction instead of this abstract garbage of procedural 3D tile patterns, navigating those would be much better.
 

Lemming42

Arcane
Joined
Nov 4, 2012
Messages
6,043
Location
The Satellite Of Love
Use a goddamn pen and paper, idiots. And maybe drop an item at junctions towards whence you came to find where you came back.

This "randomized dungeons" myth just won't die: non-MQ dungeons are procedurally pregenerated into a number of templates and all the dungeons in the game use one of these templates. There are no "randomized" dungeons. I do wish they actually were procedurally generated to keep the exploration fresh.

No other game captures what DF dungeons did for me. After a long incursion, it was a relaxing experience to backtrack, passing through halls and junctions that have already become familiar to you by now, such that you feel like the place has become a part of yourself. You have gazed long into the abyss and now the abyss have also gazed into you. A subtle sadness that you have put behind another frantic experience and now you are going home.

I agree, the problem is that EVERY dungeon - including ones for throwaway low-level sidequests - is an epic journey into a hellish labyrinth that can last real-life hours. Considering that over the course of the game you could go through, say, 50 dungeons, the sense of adventure and accomplishment can only last so long before it really starts to grate. Using a pen and paper is worthless when the dungeon layout is so frantic, not to mention that all the ramps, shafts, lifts and other things that throw you down to another floor of the dungeon can't be replicated properly on paper in the same way that a dungeon from M&M or Wizardry could. I think if I tried it I might actually get more lost. The drop item thing is cool, though.

I bet if the main quest dungeons were left exactly as they are but sidequest dungeons were much, much smaller (as in, completable in 20 mins or less) people would rip on DF's dungeons a lot less.

That just means that for the 99% of your tries, you have failed to locate the house and the person. I don't know about breaking quests, though. I haven't had that since... late 98. That's when 2.13 came out.

If you went through all of Daggerfall without running into a single broken quest then you are astronomically lucky.
 
Joined
Sep 18, 2013
Messages
1,258
Using a pen and paper is worthless when the dungeon layout is so frantic

No.

not to mention that all the ramps, shafts, lifts and other things that throw you down to another floor of the dungeon can't be replicated properly on paper

They can be replicated just fine.

in the same way that a dungeon from M&M or Wizardry could.

Not DF's fault that M&M Wizardry have simpler layouts easier to map.

If you went through all of Daggerfall without running into a single broken quest then you are astronomically lucky.

Not at all. I finished the game a dozen times without running into a single broken quest. That's playing the game natively in W98SE. But my last play-through via DosBox in W7 was also smooth sailing.
 

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