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Development Info Cyclopean announced

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Feb 10, 2007
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The idea for the conversation system is rather great if implemented right. Reputation needs to have a large impact, which this seems to be attempting.
 

Zeus

Cipher
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muds_animal_friend said:
dense, quality writing in Lovecraft’s style
Please don't. Lovecraft's prose is the literary equivalent of a deep fried Mars bar.

Yeah, man! Don't try to match Lovecraft stylistically, just take all his cool monsters and stuff, cuz monsters rule!

And rocketlaunchers!

And Soda!
 

Lord Rocket

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Let's skip the reasons why I'm anti basing this explicitly on Lovecraft's stories, because they are weird, wholly subjective and I'm not even going to bother trying to defend them for that reason,* and carry on to the levelling up issue.

Vault Dweller said:
Fez said:
Vault Dweller said:
Leveling up = worthless game?

I think the complaint is that he feels that levelling up is not in keeping with that world.
Why? I'm not saying the game will have levels, btw, as as you know, AoD doesn't have levels. I'm just arguing because "when in Rome..."

Let's consider the concept* for a second. A normal citizen gets involved in a supernatural story. He learns things he didn't know before, he learns new skills, he kills for the first time, gets better at it, learns to survive, learns how to deal with different things. By the time he's ready to wrap things up, he's a vastly different (and not entirely sane) person.

I think the level system can fit in well, especially if instead of "lvl 1, 250 points till lvl 2!", we'd go with names (instead of numbers) describing his state and knowledge.

* That's not related to Cyclopean's plot in any way and represent nothing but my own thoughts on the subject of Lovecraftian literature.

Fez is quite right. Leveling up is fine for fantasy etc. games where your character is supposed to be a 'hero;' by rights, a tenth level character will be many times tougher, meaner, and more skilled than a 1st level character. Even when the point of 'transcendence,' I guess you could say, is a bit lower than we've gotten used to in modern times - say, Batman as opposed to Superman - you're still the Goddamn Batman at the end of it.
Anyway, the point is, levels are basically an arbiter of power. The problem with that approach is that in horror fiction, everyone's on a pretty equal footing; if a tenth level character isn't threatened by a monster, then you've got shit like Underworld and you've missed the point. In my experience, HPL's characters had one level - 'puny human' - and obviously this is best expressed via skill based mechanics (you could give them a level cap I guess, but that's a bit clumsy when it comes down to it). Preferably progressive ones, by which I mean you get better at stuff by practice and advancing in the game. I know people will bitch about TES here, but let me point out that advancement could easily be confined to performing actions related to quests, while non-quest related practice gives a very very small amount of skill XPs, a la Cyberpunk 2020, or the equivalent.

Anyway, since I quoted a big block of text, I'll take this opportunity to reply: VD, what you had to say regarding advancement is in no way exclusive to level based systems. That's basically what characters do in any RP system, whether it be SPECIAL, DnD or Runequest, and hiding behind titles doesn't change the basic mechanics in place (hey, 1e ADnD as well as the stuff prior to that had level titles too you know. 0e actually used them exclusively in the text).
Also, I'm not particularly enthralled with your thoughts on Lovecraftian literature. Since when did his characters ever end up' learning how to deal with different things'? I guess you could say something like that about stuff like The Dunwich Horror, but generally the protagonists ended up rather on the back foot, and victories tend to be transient at best. Who remembers The Shadow Over Innsmouth? Not to mention the fact that 'killing for the first time' was also very much the last time. Thing on the Doorstep, Rats in the Walls.

* Well, one thing. To the guy who pointed out Lovecraft was happy to have other authors use and expand on his mythos: right, but he also thought games were shitty wastes of time. Hard to know how he would have felt about his creations being used in an 'inferior' fashion.
 

aleph

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Hard to know how he would have felt about his creations being used in an 'inferior' fashion.

I suppose he was refering more to games like poker or games of chance since during his lifetime not many other kind of games where around. Still, it is hard to tell what he would have thought about computer games and roleplaying games which are a more "narrative" form of game and can feel quite similar to a short story or novel.
 

Spectacle

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HPL was a bit of a douchebag anyway, we should enjoy his stories and try not to think too much about the person behind them.
He'd probably have fit in quite well at the codex, come to think of it.
 

Vault Dweller

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Lord Rocket said:
Fez is quite right. Leveling up is fine for fantasy etc. games where your character is supposed to be a 'hero'...
Levels are not about being an hero. Levels are one of the ways to measure your character(s) progression, which is one of the key elements of RPGs.

...a tenth level character will be many times tougher, meaner, and more skilled than a 1st level character.
And an experienced [profession] will always be much better than a novice. What's your point?

Anyway, the point is, levels are basically an arbiter of power. The problem with that approach is that in horror fiction, everyone's on a pretty equal footing; if a tenth level character isn't threatened by a monster...
RPGs aren't books and "being threatened by monsters" isn't the main activity.

Also, I'm not particularly enthralled with your thoughts on Lovecraftian literature.
Then you are a mind-reader as I've offered none. I did post some thoughts on Lovecraft based RPGs though.
 

JarlFrank

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Well, if the level system is pulled off nicely, the differences between levels aren't that huge, and if there are many meaningful non-combat skills... then it might turn out all right. Especially if numbers are replaced with "novice" "skilled" "expert" and so on. Would fit better to the setting than numbers. I don't see a big problem there.
 

peak

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I'd like a leveling system where skills have names. And wherein the max skill level is still "puny human" :lol:
 

Nael

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It'll be interesting how the sanity meter works, whether certain actions will be forced upon the player, dialogue gets screwed up (ie-VtMB Malks), or if the music changes. Speaking of music I think alot could be done for the atmosphere in a Cthulhu RPG if a good composition is proffered. Just a thought.
 

Claw

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I think what'd be cool is if depending on sanity you could meet an NPC, talk to him etc. and possibly find out that the NPC died a long time ago or that noone else aknowledges his existence.

It might be hard to portray in a meaningful way though, given the players' general attitude to NPCs. Then again, it'd be interesting for replay value alone.
 

dagorkan

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This better not be a joke... wow, if it's true, I'll have to take back everything I said about the death of RPGs.

As for "vaporware", I know some of you guys think it's funny (really hilarious!) to be cynical about everything but if they're using the AoD engine (and I see no reason why they wouldn't) that cuts away one of the major obstacles to independent/fan projects leaving them to focus on the story and C&C.

VD are you following an existing PnP ruleset or making up the mechanics from scratch? I know there are several versions out there which attempt to take advantage of the unique setting and atmosphere of the Cthulhu books though I never played any of them.
 

Nael

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dagorkan said:
VD are you following an existing PnP ruleset or making up the mechanics from scratch? I know there are several versions out there which attempt to take advantage of the unique setting and atmosphere of the Cthulhu books though I never played any of them.

They're all poorly executed. You're not missing much.
 

OSK

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Codex 2012 Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
On the Creation of Niggers

When, long ago, the gods created Earth
In Iove's fair image Man was shaped at birth.
The beasts for lesser parts were next designed;
Yet were they too remote from humankind.
To fill the gap, and join the rest to Man,
Th'Olympian host conceiv'd a clever plan.
A beast they wrought, in semi-human figure,
Filled it with vice, and called the thing a nigger.

H.P. Lovecraft
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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No reason to mince words about it. Lovecraft was a racist. I think most of the people who (like me) liked his stories know it and hopefully ain't in denial about it.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

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aleph said:
Seboss said:
Who wasn't in the 20's ?

good point
Well, I for one don't find it acceptable even if we take timeframes. Just ignorant. But I don't think it diminishes Lovecraft's stories at all... And he did seem to improve in this regard with age (see, the larger number of positive black characters in later works).
 

dagorkan

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"Diminishes his work"? Are you really this stupid?

The entire way Lovecraft writes is based on appealing to archetypes, built on irrational fears and prejudices. The reasons we react to the portrayal of the Old Ones and their servants, the haunting, alien landscapes and the eery descriptions of bizarre geometries have the same causes as the common prejudices 97.5% of human beings have about strangers, about the Other. The entire theme of Lovecraft's work is the external world, full of unknowns (filtered through untrustworthy sense-perception) versus the inner world of instincts and emotions in constant struggle reason. By the end of most of the stories the characters can't even trust their sense of reason and those who survive do so because they reverted to instinct.

If you truly are the PC idiot you just painted yourself as you should not pretend that you like Lovecraft which would be clearly contradictory. Somebody with no prejudices at all cannot by nature appreciate literature, someone like that can never be more than semi-human.

Someone who does not have prejudices is better off dead because their soul is already dead. In any case having prejudices and failing to control them are two different things.

How you can judge Lovecraft or anyone who has racist or sexist thoughts as 'bad people' is beyond me. As far as I am aware he was a private person and mainly stayed at home and wrote, he never lynched anyone or persecuted any individual, and his first wife was Jewish which proves he was able to distinguish between reality and fantasy (unlike many people on the internet).
 

Pastel

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Knowing that sheek is a dumbfuck really diminishes his posts.
 

dagorkan

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Thanks for that little insight, so original you must be quite a genius yourself
 

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