Anime Criticize my CRPG Book

[felipepepe]

Thanks for replying.
You seem a bit hang up on the ratings/meter thing, and you're kind of ignoring the rest of my post (again).
MRY seems to get the direction i'm talking about, that would certainly help with making the games seem more alive and playable.
agris suggestion of making some of that info into insert panels would be great.
I still don't know, why you're ignoring the idea of editorial commentary/editorial picks (for instance - for entry level cRPGs), or some kind of summaries (that could work a little bit like the thing MRY suggested).

Uh, how am I ignoring it? There's already a whole section dedicated to lists at the end, including my personal pick of most important RPGs and must-play obscure titles, and I also said I like the idea of making an intro article that specifically recommends some entry games. Isn't this exactly what you're proposing (minus the ratings)?

Hell, recently I made a thread all about iconic experiences your must try in RPGs: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...morable-things-you-should-do-in-rpg-x.111743/

Yes, it would be cool to have a one-liner for every game, but then I would have to redesign the entire layout, and I honestly not gonna do that unless I really HAVE to or someone suggests a better layout that still fits all the other stuff I find more important.

 

[Neanderthal]

Fuck me I musta been a smart bastard when I werre a nipper, dint need none o this handholdin folk are askin for. Wonder what happened to me brain?

 

[Werdna's Revenge]

I'm not entirely sure the whole "getting started with this game" thing is really required. A lot of the experience of these games is figuring out the systems and rules that govern the gameworld, and how far you can push them. Are people really so used to in game tutorials and quest compasses now that it's too much of a shock to the system to deal without those things. The examples I'm seeing are best covered with "read the manual, and make maps" for the most part. Not many games actually require a tonne of min-maxing which seems to be the other request.

I read through a bit of the book and I have to say there's a lot of little wording/grammar mistakes to this. I get that it's contributed and not proof-read yet but still makes things annoying to read. Made a few notes on the first couple of reviews til I stopped caring:

page 20: "where the monsters (player, too) were" might flow better as: "where the monsters (and player, too) were"
"it wasn’t marked on the map, either, so better remember its location" might have the tense make more sense as: "it wasn’t marked on the map, either, so better have remembered its location"
page 21: "Should you die – sooner or later, bound to happen" could better work as: "Should you die – as was sooner or later, bound to happen"
"So you proceeded carefully along the level, Listening at doors, Inspecting walls for secret doors, Bashing stuck doors open, Running when over-matched, and hoping you wouldn’t run into too many wandering monsters." has too much needless capitalization on the verbs.
"You know the saying: there can be only one (though not a ring this time)." is a mixed pop culture reference. It doesn't make much sense since the phrase is distinctly from Highlander, but the aside seems to be about The Lord of the Rings.
page 22: "Your only chance them" should be "Your only chance then"
page 23: "adquire" should be "acquire"
"world detail hidden within multiple paragraphs to read in a booklet" might flow better as: "world detail hidden until having read multiple paragraphs in a booklet,"
page 26: "sell useless equipment and buy better one, replenish food and torches and identify unknown items" might work better as: "sell useless equipment and buy improved gear, replenish food and torches, and identify unknown items"
"time, playing area occupies" could be: "time, the playing area occupies"

Maybe this will change when the era header pages are in, but because of the multiple contributors I find that no real trends or themes get brought up in a distinct way. When you have one person who is covering and completeing multiple games they can better write about the trends and make more coherent statements about rpgs as a whole (see Matt Barton or the CRPGAddict.) Granted a single author also colours things with their own idiosyncrasies and biases so a distributed look has its own strengths. Maybe because I only read a chunk of the first parts things seem disjointed, it might be better when the early era gets more coverage.

Just to make a comparison to my favourite film book, incredibly strange films, since I see that you're basically trying to hit the same sort of style I think. It starts with essays/interviews, then goes to reviews, and then lists. I think this book has a bolder review section, but could do with a bit more essay/interview material, especially if you can get stuff from or about the people who actually made these games. It might be a lot to ask, but I think it would add a lot more to the book if I read about Ultima after reading about Garriott. To bring it back to ISF, it made reading reviews of Herschell Gordon Lewis movies more interesting after reading an interview with him and other directors that brought up his direct influence on them.

Also, as someone mentioned earlier it is criminal that the Heroes of Might and Magic series gets no entries. Guaranteed to cause a 90% loss of sales to Vatniks, although maybe that's a good thing

 

[pippin]

Being vague in a manual is ok, but giving wrong information or hiding it is not ok. I wonder if POR's manual was intended to ape the actual DND manuals with all those bits of lore. The official excuse for rerolling was that they expected you to be able to use your pnp characters in the game, but they didn't tell you they do indeed have an effect on encounters.

I agree, the manual itself should always be accurate and to the point, however, it's not a problem if secondary documents have misleading information, like Wasteland's paragraphs.

 

[Sigourn]

I believe the games shouldn't be sugar-coated to the player.

There should be actual reasons to recommend a game. The way Morrowind is described in the third paragraph of the review is nostalgia at its finest. Sure, NPCs have inventories, dispositions, and the like, but to say "that combine to give each NPC their own personal little story" makes it seem like this is Skyrim, whereas Morrowind's NPCs are literally:

- background
- little advice
- little secret
- my trade

And it is impossible to distinguish one NPC from another.

 

[GrainWetski]

I can't say I remember a single thing uttered by any NPC in Skyrim besides the shitty memes. I think it's your nostalgia and rose-coloured glasses that are talking.

 

[Sigourn]

I can't say I remember a single thing uttered by any NPC in Skyrim besides the shitty memes. I think it's your nostalgia and rose-coloured glasses that are talking.

o I am laffin

Skyrim's NPC were easily distinguishable from one another, based only on what they say. The only exception are guards, and even Morrowind's guards were shit.

Compare a random NPC from Morrowind to a random NPC from Skyrim, and Skyrim will most likely win in 90% of the cases.

 

[Sigourn]

o I am laffin x2

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Dralasa_Nithryon

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Brenuin

I love Morrowind and it's the only TES title I play, but its NPCs are shit and 70% of them may as well not exist since they

- Don't say anything no other NPC says, word for word.
- Aren't involved in any quests, in any way or form.
- Don't have any personality whatsoever.

Go ahead and ask any Pawnbroker about their trade, and they all say the same shit. It's even funnier hearing a Khajiit use Khajiit-speak, only for you to ask them something else and they suddenly go full-English on you.

 

[pippin]

You are a larper then.

 

[Sigourn]

You are a larper then.

On the contrary. People who think NPC's in Morrowind have personalities or feel alive are dumbfucks, and that Morrowind review is so sugarcoated with nostalgia I wonder if the person who wrote it has played the game in the last decade.

Skyrim's NPCs suck just like Morrowind's, but at least I can differentiate them and they don't feel like walking billboards.

The moment two NPCs repeat the same line of dialogue, the "personality and background" argument is thrown out of the window. Skyrim suffered from this as well in regards to vendors and inn keepers, they would repeat the same stupid lines, but at least they had other unique dialogue.

 

[pippin]

If Morrowind's world feels alive it's not because of that shit. Morrowind's life comes from a carefully crafted design, not because people say things. Every character in Skyrim feels like a robot, precisely because they tried to make them feel alive and Bethesda can't do that. Morrowind also wins because it's not a fully voiced game and you don't have to hear the same shitty 5 or 6 voice actors all the time.

Even the potatofaced npcs from The Witcher 1 feel more alive than anything in Skyrim. And CDPR made that game banging two rocks together over a bunch of sticks soaked in vodka.

 

[Sigourn]

If Morrowind's world feels alive it's not because of that shit.

I never said otherwise.

Every character in Skyrim feels like a robot

What does that say of Morrowind's copypasted NPCs, then?

Morrowind also wins because it's not a fully voiced game and you don't have to hear the same shitty 5 or 6 voice actors all the time.

In fact, it loses because it makes them even less memorable. Most of the NPCs are forgettable because they don't say anything special of any kind, you can't even remember them based on their voices.

This is why Socucius Ergalla is, incidentally, one of the most memorable Morrowind NPCs. He has a voice, unique lines, and that makes him very easy to remember.

Even the potatofaced npcs from The Witcher 1 feel more alive than anything in Skyrim.

That is true, and they feel more alive than anything in Morrowind as well.

But in the end

The Witcher's generic NPCs > Skyrim's generic NPCs > Morrowind's generic NPCs

The Witcher isn't trying to bullshit you. It's generic NPCs are generic NPCs. You can't talk to them. They just give you a one-line reply like you would realistically expect.

I would like you to talk to me about the NPCs that roam Balmora in Morrowind. I will reply with the NPCs that roam Whiterun in Skyrim, and we will see which ones have actual personalities.

I'll give you a headstart, based on what I remember:

- There's one male Orc. He wears normal clothes, his shirt is blue.
- There's one male Redguard. He wears normal clothes.
- There's one female Nord. She wears cozy Nord light armor.
- There's one female Argonian. She wears normal clothes.
- There's around two female Dunmer, two male Dunmer, and one male Dunmer that's Cammona Tong. One of the females wears a dress, the other wears a brown robe. The Cammona Tong uses Boiled Netch Leather armor, I think.
- And lots of Guards.

Their names? Beats me.

 

[Neanderthal]

Ultima beat both decades afore.

 

[MRY]

It's not like any of us in these days were smarter than kids today and we still managed and finished these games

We were had a different mentality back then, and probably had some genre meta knowledge from other, easier RPGs. That's something you can't underestimate.

Obviously, I agree with felipepepe on this, but there are some other factors at play.

- In the mid-80s, what were your alternatives to cRPGs if you wanted to a single-player fantasy experience? You might read the Lone Wolf books. You might play the Barbarian Prince boardgame. There were a few single-player D&D modules. What if you wanted an audio-visual fantasy experience? You could watch the Dungeons & Dragons cartoon show or Willow; you could read Prince Caspian in the newspaper's comics page. In other words, you didn't have a lot of alternatives. So someone's willingness to put up with frustration is going to be a lot higher -- cRPGs could essentially say, "It's my way or the highway!" Today, by contrast, if those are the things you're looking for and you find Pool of Radiance frustrating, you can just go play Tyranny. In other words, there is a super-abundance of close substitutes to old school RPGs. That makes it much easier to walk away.

-@felipepepe points to "genre metaknowledge from other, easier RPGs" but that's not the only context for these games. They existed as part of an entire ecosystem that included: (1) other computer software, which had similarly weird interfaces (I remember AppleWorks classic, for example, on my old Apple II/c -- it had an interface that would easily go toe-to-toe with a rouge-like); (2) a culture in which lay craftsmanship (in everything ranging from fixing your toilet to programming your VCR) was much more common and expected a high degree of learning-by-failure; (3) board games with rules that were often not really thought through and often strangely complex. Today's players exist in a different ecosystem -- software is supposed to be intuitive, we don't expect lay craftsmanship, even board games now have simple, sensible rules. In other words, players are just not acculturated to deal with the problems in those older games.

- The games that now look and sound low-fidelity to us were the height of technology back then. In other words, even setting aside the "where else will you get your fantasy fix," these games were novelties not unlike Myst. "Wow! There's a command to divide a stack of arrows in half!" as opposed to "uhh, why is there a command to divide a stack of arrows in half?" It's true that there were other games that were prettier, slicker, etc. (Carmen Sandiego, pops to mind), but I think it is hard to realize now that things that are today barriers to entry were back then attractions.

These things put together meant that players were just more willing to put up with dumb crap. But part of what I would want to have explained to me (or to other weak players) would be what stuff is dumb and avoidable and what stuff seems dumb, but should be embraced. A couple examples of this are rolling stats and making maps. I still can't say for sure whether the "right" way to play a Gold Box game is to reroll a hundred times, modify your stats, or roll once or twice and build the party with what you get. Likewise, I can't say for sure whether doing graph paper cartography is a core part of the experience and that you should force yourself to do it until it becomes a kind of meditative ecstasy or whether only people farther along the spectrum enjoy that kind of activity and downloading maps or using a third-party automapper is a perfectly reasonable way to play.

 

[agris]

(2) a culture in which lay craftsmanship (in everything ranging from fixing your toilet to programming your VCR) was much more common and expected a high degree of learning-by-failure

That's a really interesting observation. My post contributes nothing to this conversation but.. yea. And I would say that the 80s and early to mid 90s represent a continuation, though perhaps a declining one, from an even greater cultural DIY tendency that existed essentially from the start of the 20th century, if not recorded history.

I'm getting in general discussion territory now, but I wanted to point out what a good observation this was. Carry on.

 

[Sratopotator]

(You should know that i tried to stop myself from posting here, cause i'm making a fool of myself a bit, it's just the topic is just too interesting for some reason)

Uh, how am I ignoring it? There's already a whole section dedicated to lists at the end, including my personal pick of most important RPGs and must-play obscure titles, and I also said I like the idea of making an intro article that specifically recommends some entry games. Isn't this exactly what you're proposing (minus the ratings)?

Yeah they are kind of what i'm talking about, i was just thinking of something more popamole
Like a fucking ribbon on the same page as the review, or something shitty like that (and some things a little bit less shitty).

I'm serious. If you want to say something to the reader (especially newbies) about a particular game, you really really should do it on the same page as the review. That's like a fact or something (i even asked a friend who's in books publishing about it, true story bro).

But it's probably stupid for the printed book, if you don't want to add anything new to the layout at this point. I get it, making a book like this is probably layout hell.

You could change the web distributed version if you don't care much about sales of physical book. Then you could loosen the layout and do a lot of things with the free space - like the stuff that MRY said or one-liners or just anything.

If you DO want both versions to be identical, you could always put the .pdf (or convert it to smthn else) on a site that allows comments and reserve them for the authors and yourself. Or a site that allows annotations on the pages. Shit, even convert the whole book to a web page.


So is this discussion even about the web distributed version?
Because after thinking about it, i completely agree with you - the printed version should stay exactly the way it is. Who would pay for it besides hardcore cRPG buffs?

 

[felipepepe]

I think individual game tips would be pointless. Not only they are condescending as fuck and can take some of the thrill of discovery away, but let's face it - if we're talking about a hypothetical reader that needs this much hand-holding, the chances of him actually making through a game's character creation are null.

Just imagine a Skyrim fan who never played D&D trying Pools of Radiance. He doesn't need a ribbon, he needs a separate guide book - which back then were called GAME MANUALS, btw.

Again, mindset is the key here. If the person is determined to sit down, read that shit and endure the UI, he'll have a blast playing - even if he needs to google some stuff now and then. If not, no amount of ribbons will solve anything. In that case, the best I can do is to advice him to start with Baldur's Gate, since it uses D&D rules and it's much more friendly.

This is not calling people dumb - I really want to play Crusader Kings 2 one day, but I simply haven't got the disposition to sit down and learn the game yet. And I know I HAVE to do that, it requires investment to be enjoyed. Someone saying "game X is a good gateway into Paradox's Grand Strategy games" would be way more useful than a random pro top like "Have loads of children to use for political leverage and train your spies wisely" (not an actual pro tip).

 

[pippin]

Yeah but IIRC the Gold Box documents were designed because they couldn't cram everything into the games, and they also had the pretension of being a true DND experience (or at least to the point that was allowed by pc gaming). I don't think reading is the problem per se; the fact that you had to set up everything on your own can be tiresome to some people.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Well, one thing about these games, the ones I did not play, the first thing that makes me want to play them are the screenshots. A screenshot of a memorable moment with the right description can be really intriguing.

I think Felipe pepe intentions are noble and he may have success, but he shouldn't try to change the world. It's not this book that will make all people see the light.

Say what you will about modern retardation/consolization, but some old games have really obscure control schemes, ui, unintuitive shortcuts, and harsh punishments even for people whom devoured the manual back and fort, that even the most prestigious codexer would actually avoid for not wanting to bother with so much work to progress through a game. Sometimes it requires time and/or willpower to play them. To overcome this, the reviews shall set the mood of readers for them at least try.

Just by this preview, I've seen lots of games I already knew about and others I've never heard, and I felt a glimpse of enthusiasm that makes me at least try to find the game and install in my computer. If you get that from the readers, I guess the book is a success.

I think a section talking about this, acknowledging that yes, it is hard to get used to how this games play, but if you persevere, you're really in for a treat is all this book needs.

And one thing I've realized while playing old games is that after you spend some time with then, you actually get used to their controls.

 

[felipepepe]

Thanks, I try really hard to get good screenshots for every game.

Also, to get screenshots that ar representative, because I'm fucking sick and tired of how people over-rely on promo shots, so every goddamn Oblivion article has this exact picture:

Seriously, google image that shit - it literally says aprox. 25.270.000.000 results.

 

[Sratopotator]

I think i went few steps too far with my last post.
Let's ignore the newbie hooks topic for a second. At this point i'm half joking with this ribbon stuff.
(You could make it more visible that a game is, in fact, on a list at the end of the book. Just to be consistent. But that's minor)

I'll turn this into series of questions/points cause i have some trouble with getting my point across and i'm annoying.
(I'm assuming that this discussion is about web book too, because you didn't answer)

1. Do you want to make both versions completely identical? It's not unheard of that e-version of a book is cut/formatted in a different way.

2. For sure there is stuff (like the one liners) that you would want to add to the book but the space is lacking, page count is a bitch and stuff like that. You also want to add bookmarks and hyperlinks.
So my question is this: Do you really want the web version to be in a book format? Or, JUST in a book format?

Maybe a more interactive way would be superior? Why not make it more readable on a computer screen by making a web page out of it? (where you could also provide pdf version for dl)
It would mean that you could add a lot of optional info, that you deem important enough, without the risk of going with too much stuff at once. The pictures could be bigger. And a lot more goodies, when you think about it. The sky is the limit.

3. Sorry that i'm discussing the base of your design decisions, of all things, but everything else is really great. I couldn't care less if you missed a game, or the reviewer misrepresented one (not that it happened), i just like the idea of this book very much.

Yea, you shouldn't try to change the world, that's like impossible or something (at least that's what THEY want you to think).
Even if you want to finish the book as soon you can, maybe just keep in mind for the future, that with a bit more creative work here and there, i think that you could get to a lot more people, without popamole-ing the shit out of all this work.

You've got great content so far, why not get it out there in multitude of ways if you don't care about the sales?

 

[Sigourn]

Thanks, I try really hard to get good screenshots for every game.

Also, to get screenshots that ar representative, because I'm fucking sick and tired of how people over-rely on promo shots, so every goddamn Oblivion article has this exact picture:

Seriously, google image that shit - it literally says aprox. 25.270.000.000 results.

It's funny because that picture looks like shit. Bloom everywhere.

 

[felipepepe]

1. Do you want to make both versions completely identical? It's not unheard of that e-version of a book is cut/formatted in a different way.

Again, feature creep - I've been working on this for almost 3 years, not gonna start branching into multiple versions and what not before finishing the one I set out to make.

2. For sure there is stuff (like the one liners) that you would want to add to the book but the space is lacking, page count is a bitch and stuff like that. You also want to add bookmarks and hyperlinks.
So my question is this: Do you really want the web version to be in a book format? Or, JUST in a book format?

Maybe a more interactive way would be superior? Why not make it more readable on a computer screen by making a web page out of it? (where you could also provide pdf version for dl)
It would mean that you could add a lot of optional info, that you deem important enough, without the risk of going with too much stuff at once. The pictures could be bigger. And a lot more goodies, when you think about it. The sky is the limit.

First, I'm not a programmer. I can put together a layout and make a book myself at home, but I can't make a website myself, organize its database and host it at zero cost.

Second, you're being extremely naive. We already have tons websites like you're talking about... Abandonia, My Abandonware, IsoZone, Old PC Gaming, DJOldGames, The Legacy, Hall of Light, Hardcore Gaming 101, Moby Games... hell, there's even genre specifics databases like the RPG Database. And motherfucking Wikipedia, of course. They are much larger, older, established and full of content than I ever hope/want to make.

But you never see casuals talking about them, you don't see people cheering that now there's a review for Stonekeep at Abandonia.

That's the diference - I'm making a book. A free book, with modders, famous devs, journos, etc. It's the current year, but people still love books. There are many reasons for that - a book is a finished work, has a start and an end. It has a reading order but you can jump pages freely. It carries a psychological weight, it imposes a certain respect.

A webpage may be more convenient, but a book is more meaningful. I set out to compile info spread through the internet, through all these websites, forums, databases and users that are online but no one else can be bothered to read - I won't do the opposite and add more noise.

In a nutshell, what you're proposing is this:

 

[Sratopotator]

Again, feature creep - I've been working on this for almost 3 years, not gonna start branching into multiple versions and what not before finishing the one I set out to make.

That's why i'm asking you in my last post, to at least think about it, after finishing your work with the printed version.

Second, you're being extremely naive. We already have tons websites like you're talking about... Abandonia, My Abandonware, IsoZone, Old PC Gaming, DJOldGames, The Legacy, Hall of Light, Hardcore Gaming 101, Moby Games... hell, there's even genre specifics databases like the RPG Database. And motherfucking Wikipedia, of course. They are much larger, older, established and full of content than I ever hope/want to make.

Shit, you still don't get what i'm talking about. The sites you mention don't have anything in common with a book (in terms of layout/design).
I'm not a professional web designer, but even i know that there are some cool, cheap and easy-to-use web layouts, perfect for creating a site in a book format.
I'm not talking about doing a site about cRPGs, but just transcribing the book to a website. And yeah it costs money, but it can be cheap as fuck with some help - so that isn't a valid reason for 'not even thinking about it' stance you took.

I get it that you like the book format for the web version, but it's impossible that i'm the first person you encounter, that says something like: 'physical books are great, e-books are great, but going with interactive (bookmarks, hyperlinks) straight-up pdf is inferior to other methods you could go with'.
Pdf version really carries the same weight and is as meaningful as the physical book, in your opinion? (And again, i'm not talking about throwing the pdf version to the garbage)

There is even an option, with no work or money needed, of putting the pdf file on a site that allows annotations/comments made by you or the authors (or anyone you want).
It's so fucking easy, that i'm really surprised by your assumption that i'm spewing some bullshit, without even considering it.
Or without telling me that - yes, you considered it, and you see the upside, but it's just too much work. Or that your work is open-sourcy, cc and stuff, and if i want to do so, then i can do a fucking website. Anything on the subject would be good.

When i'm talking about newbie hooks, you're assuming that i'm anti-oldschool and pro-casual. When discussing if there is a better way to view the book on a pc, you're assuming that i'm anti-books. When i'm suggesting that you can do a website, you assume that i want to make Gamespot for old crpgs.
So, you would take my suggestions out of context, turn them around, and tell me that i'm naive, rather than read my post, understand and discuss?

You are the one that wanted to brainstorm the shit out of this topic, so maybe take a step back and look at the big picture. I'm really not trying to rape your book, just throwing some ideas around.
And yeah, maybe i'm 3 years too late to influence you in any way, but if you don't want to do anything with this project after the release of printed version (cause you're burnt-out or smthn), then just say so!

I set out to compile info spread through the internet, through all these websites, forums, databases and users that are online but no one else can be bothered to read - I won't do the opposite and add more noise.

But that's what my other point is about.
When looking at your pdf, i see that it would look perfect as a physical book. But when reading it on a computer screen it's just too crammed and noisy. Even lists at the end could look ok in print, but on a screen it's just horrible mess, adding to the fact that they are completely disconnected from the rest of the book.
It's almost standard practice to re-cut the book for big screens, if you think that the readers would be mostly using big screens.

Ok, so it's a lot of work, but is kinda shitty of you to answer my question with 'i won't do that cause i'm doing some other stuff right now'. But you WILL do that? Are you thinking about it? You won't do that ever cause you don't like the idea?

For some reason i care enough to propose stuff, some half-baked and some valid. If you absolutely don't care about the topics that i'm talking about, then just say that you've got it covered - and i will fuck off (and maybe come back when you release the printed book).

 

[Grauken]

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