Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Game News Copper Dreams Kickstarter Update #16: Ticks and Tiles

Discussion in 'RPG News & Content' started by Infinitron, Jul 25, 2017.

  1. Whalenought_Joegender: ⚧ Whalenought Studios Developer

    Whalenought_Joe
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    Conceptually it hasn’t really changed from the original KS concept, recovery and actions times are just shorter so you can react more effectively to changes during combat. That’s been a lot more fun than planning longer phases, they leave you less room for options. It definitely plays snappier as result, much more fun.

    So while the combat bar we were originally using represented a variable amount of time, and the ticks rather represent finite chunks of “time”. Visually it’s more accurate for at-a-glance comparisons between characters.

    We’ll be doing that next update, we just wanted to get something out about the schedule and new alpha stuff. It's still essentially like the Grandia system, just adapted to work better in a more intricate grid to fight in.

    We should probably come up with a term for the system since it doesn’t really resemble other systems, we haven’t put much thought into it since the KS last year. Step-by-step turn based. Individual phase based. Perpetual simultaneous phase based. I don’t know, just going with turn based for now.

    Recovery + Action times in a turn vary based on character Virtues associated with the action and any ailments received. Putting points into the Aptitude score for weapons/items just increases the number you roll under to aim or use them effectively, which limits what a player can control beyond trying not to get shot. Ailment changes per body part are straight forward, arm damage might add to recovery after an attack, and/or action time if it’s a melee attack, head damage might add more ticks to aim, leg damage might mean longer recovery after moving or even maiming a character to limit movement actions like crawling and jumping. On the list of things to get in is a hover over an action to get a preview of the ticks it’ll take to perform.
     
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  2. Major_Blackhartgender: ⚧ Codexia Lord Sodom Patron

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    While I didn't kickstart this, I am still interested in the game overall and probably will purchase it.
     
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  3. Jim The Dinosaur IIgender: ⚧ Learned

    Jim The Dinosaur II
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    dunno, I have the feeling that the advantage of phase-based over RT or TB alternatives decreases the less weight decision moments have. You can't change your plan on a moment to moment basis like in RT, or execute and tweak it in increments like in TB, so the fun in Frozen Synapse or Diplomacy comes from mulling over all the variables involved in a single sweeping move.

    Of course when you bring the scale down from grand strategy or squad tactics to a single character cRPG you need to add more action options to keep those decision moments interesting, but when you have a ton of small decision moments spent checking bullet trajectories to perform SHMUP-y bullet dodges, the decisions seem to inevitably become a bit trivial.
     
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  4. Sensukigender: ⚧ Arcane Cuck

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    Joe mentioned on the internal forums that if the .25 sec tick time is too short they could easily change it to .5 seconds instead - will be subject to playtesting.

    It does seem like the current iteration as described fits a lot better to the gameplay ideas that were discussed 'on paper' 2 years ago internally than what they went with initially for the Kickstarter.
     
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  5. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ Trade Master Patron

    Infinitron
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    "Step-based" seems like a good short description that intuitively conveys how this system plays.
     
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  6. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

    ArchAngel
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    I don't think you will be dodging bullets but enemy aim... at least I hope bullets will be fast enough dodging them will be super hard without specializing in fast moving.
    Also choice between moving to avoid enemy fire or stay and fire back hoping they miss or your armor absorbs it is a real meaningful decision.
     
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  7. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

    ArchAngel
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    Nah, too ordinary.

    Whale phased - let a combat system forever be called after them.
     
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  8. Jim The Dinosaur IIgender: ⚧ Learned

    Jim The Dinosaur II
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    That was my point: moment to moment decisions and tradeoffs like whether to shoot but stay exposed or run but not attack take place in TB or RT just as easily. The defining feature of phase-based variants in my mind is that a decision doesn't exist in isolation as a one-off measure, but is more akin to the phase of a plan, with many interlocking parts.

    I just don't really get the appeal of fast-paced moment-to-moment phase-based like this or Grandia relative to plain old TB or RT I guess.
     
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  9. Sensukigender: ⚧ Arcane Cuck

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    The appeal is that reaction (not reaction speed, but the action of reacting to time-based events) has a higher importance.
     
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  10. CRDgender: ⚧ Learned Patron

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    Quite a change, and a shame. I liked much more the idea of a Frozen Synapse kind of gameplay on a rpg.
     
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  11. Make America Great Again Taka-Haradin puolipeikkogender: ⚧ Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
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    Whalenought_Joe what did you try to do before implementing tics?
    I thought that implementing such minimum amount of time for action to happen was obvious choice in the first place.
     
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  12. Whalenought_Joegender: ⚧ Whalenought Studios Developer

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    The tics are just a representation of turn-time, before that character were just moving across a timeline at various speeds in seconds, so it's just a more clear way of looking at the idea of 'time'. Before there were also more options available within a single turn, which is what kept us on that track for a while. You'd set multiple waypoints and attack/use item at the end of it. This made for more pre-planning strategy, but less options to react to enemy turns as you'd be waiting for characters to end theirs and it was up to chance to see how things went.

    So it wasn't a huge change just forcing everything to be shorter and providing more opportunities to react, just a different way of going about it from the phase-based sort of thing it was before and making the systems more visually obvious. There's still the same tradeoff of quicker firing from the hip shots to 'charge-up' actions, aiming, or using difficult to use weapons/devices that take more ticks to perform.

    The one (!) caveat with all this is how we control companions, which of course has to change or the flow of combat would be bewildering. The solution is fun though and doesn't break the flow of combat, moving from micro-managing them to issuing command locations all at once. We're also happy to be able to give them more autonomy in the world rather than being just PC-minions.
     
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  13. Make America Great Again Taka-Haradin puolipeikkogender: ⚧ Arcane

    Taka-Haradin puolipeikko
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    It is just as I thought; tics make for easier bookkeeping.
    It is probably now easier to set values for let's say: shooting a rifle from hip.
    Time to shoot it might be calculated from basic char stats + relevant weapon skill + ease of weapons handling (carbine shouldn't be the same as anti-material rifle) +how many tics you will you take for to get better aim (Jagged Alliance 2 style).

    To be honest I didn't get clarity from the update how movement will work now. You say that it will be in shorter chunks now (if I understood that correctly), but since only turns take x-amount of tics to implement action game that I have played is Titans of Steel (where you usually just give movement order for one hex at a time) I don't have context to compare it to anything that I've encountered before.

    *shugs* Perhaps upcoming gameplay video will offer some clarity to that issue.


    edit.
    Ian/Marcus/Cassidy hits you in the back?
     
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  14. Whalenought_Joegender: ⚧ Whalenought Studios Developer

    Whalenought_Joe
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    Shorter turn times mitigate brazen Ian behavior. AI knows where and when the player is shooting/moving and can have states to react to that during their turns. In their current state they find a spot to aim that leaves a breadth of tiles around their trajectory to a target that doesn't include you in it. Allowing more risky attacks are going to be looked into later, something a player could adjust per-companion. Being able to point them in the right direction during a turn also helps them target intelligently and spread out/flank. The alpha doesn't include the black-market Block where they'd get some companions, so this'll come as an update for that or during the beta which will have more Blocks.

    When a player is selecting actions they can also see where companions are aiming or moving to, and any projectiles can show the next tick worth of tiles they are going to cruise through as well as their trajectory after, so the player also gets a fairly comprehensive look of what's going to occur before the turn.
     
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  15. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

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    You could include voice commands for companions that let you give them exact targets but cost ticks of time to perform.
     
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  16. torpidgender: ⚧ Liturgist

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    :shredder:

    Loving that you guys have put so much thought into the system and already addressed potential issues.
     
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  17. twincastgender: ⚧ Learned Patron In My Safe Space

    twincast
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    :negative:

    :positive:
     
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  18. Major_Blackhartgender: ⚧ Codexia Lord Sodom Patron

    Major_Blackhart
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    As I said earlier, I will buy. I just don't like the Kickstarter stuff mostly. Except for Larian, that's the only one I did.
     
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