Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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KickStarter Copper Dreams, a cyberpunk RPG from Whalenought Studios

Discussion in 'General RPG Discussion' started by Infinitron, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. Maxiegender: ⚧ Erudite

    Maxie
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    how's modifying the game a game mechanic?
     
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  2. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

    ArchAngel
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    Life is complicated. When you grow up you will understand.
     
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  3. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

    ArchAngel
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    Out of game as is not part of game story and mechanics connected with the story. Unless they connect it like PST did or TToN.
     
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  4. Zombragender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    Now you're simply defining things as important because you like them. "This way is good because it fits a narrow set of parameters I like that I therefore define as good." Nobody cares.

    It's OK if you like traditional "anything goes" save systems, but stop lying to yourself that it's OK for them to not make sense because "it's not a game mechanic".
     
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  5. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

    ArchAngel
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    I am not lying to anyone. I like games to be consistent. I like stories to be consistent and I like movies to be consistent. Those that pride themselves on simulating stuff I expect more. Copper Dreams is such a game. And now I find they want to introduce shitty mechanics found in Diablo?! WTF?!
    And with no good reason even. I guess the real reason is they don't want to spend time making a UI for a proper save/load system with multiple saves. Or maybe they want to put hard combat left and right that will often kill the player and get them to zerg over and over instead of load the same save for X times until player figures out how to win. Maybe they feel this way that hard combat will have less complaining than when people need to load same save game X times.
     
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  6. YES!gender: ⚧ Hi, I'm Roqua

    YES!
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    I'm sure your life is so rough and complicated that you are forced to steal indie games from hard working people to waste some of your leisure time with.

    You most likely pay for the fancy console games that can afford to be pirated. You steal the rest.

    I'm almost certain you didn't kickstart shit.

    I'm 100% certain no developer or money paying customer should give a shit about what sort of save system you and your ilk like. Only people who pay money or put the work in should have a say in this shit.
     
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  7. Whalenought_Joegender: ⚧ Whalenought Studios Developer

    Whalenought_Joe
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    A DM doesn't just lets players 'reload' to check out other options in dialogue or combat to get better results, that would make gameplay very trivial, so the question was how to tangibly bring that kind of experience into a CRPG environment where you wouldn't want to start over in a (mostly) non-randomized map. The original radio-save was our version of a 'typewriter ink' sort of save, which is good fun and makes for tense gameplay, but in our case was having issues with map design and the flow of gameplay, which is why we altered it so a player won't even think about a saving mechanic itself, just the consequences of failing.

    As far as simulation, nothing really makes sense unless there's some sort of magical component to it anyway. The system is of course pending feedback from the alpha mission.


    That's awesome (and that gun is the business). I haven't checked that one out before, but I've heard it's wonderful.

    I think we tried to save our skin on a release date on the Kicsktarter by saying somewhere that we're not making any definitive one until we're ready, but yeah we originally intended to start pushing public content out this summer, which is where that March came from.
     
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  8. Whalenought_Joegender: ⚧ Whalenought Studios Developer

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    It was getting to the point where weren't satisfied designing maps with save-safe areas in hostile places that might as well had giant neon lights reading "SAVE HERE DUMMIES", and then balancing how much content/dangers were in-between each of them so redoing content wouldn't be too tedious. It fundamentally wasn't working as we originally designed it to, so it needed to change.
     
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  9. oasis789gender: ⚧ Arcane

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    While I'm personally in favor of hardcore roguelike gameplay, save mechanics are something that players feel very strongly about and mishandling this will seriously fuck with your PR. It's about respecting the time of the player, letting the player choose, sometimes life happens, you should know all of this already. Make ironman a toggle, don't make one size fit all. You will just end up with people backing up the save files manually by alt-tabbing to the save directory. Or someone modding in save functionality. Either way, it's not a good thing.

    If players abuse the save and resort to degenerate gameplay that cheapens their enjoyment, that's their problem. Just hope they don't blame you for it.
     
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  10. Make America Great Again Infinitrongender: ⚧ Trade Master Patron

    Infinitron
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    Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
    Whalenought_Joe Would it be correct to assume that the game has taken on a "mission-oriented" structure? The death system seems to imply something like that.
     
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  11. daveydgender: ⚧ Learned

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    FWIW
     
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  12. Whalenought_Joegender: ⚧ Whalenought Studios Developer

    Whalenought_Joe
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    The structure remains the same as mentioned in the original Kickstarter with a select number of 'water-chip' high-level goals that branch. When we finalized some of the story to work more appropriately with maps it's changed a bit, but is still quite similar, much more room for player agency. We'll talk about that before the alpha.
     
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  13. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

    ArchAngel
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    It does not need to be magic. Satellite Reign had agents upload their knowledge into new body. You are in a cyberpunk world, you can come up with some advanced tech explanation. Have our main character have some unique ability that lets them survive death with some penalty.
    PnP has raise dead or permadeath. Raise dead usually has a penalty beyond time. How about you pay someone to have extra body in a safe place while you carry a device on your body that uploads your consciousness through it once it detects you died. You need to pay each time for new body (or find suitable people yourself and subdue them and bring them to that place). It makes the whole thing make sense, it is costly and cannot let players zerg combat and provides moral problems. While some bodies can be taken from people whose brain basically died but body is good condition you could for example buy a body from a guy by promising to take care of his wife and kids or maybe just buy them from some kidnappers and such.

    But if you are not willing to provide in world explanation for miraculous revivals, than only way to bring that PnP experience is Ironman mode, not this Diablo bullshit.
     
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  14. hell bovinegender: ⚧ Magister

    hell bovine
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    I don't mind experimental save systems, as long as they are optional. Because in a single-player cRPG, I don't care how others play the game; whether they ironman or reload spam, and as such I don't care for game mechanics trying to 'police' playing styles.
     
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  15. The Fishgender: ⚧ Arbiter

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    The problem with this is that the save system informs the entire design. It's true that pillars of eternity has an ironman mode for those who want it, but its design isn't as congruent with an ironman mode as a game with soft failure (like xcom).

    That the save system is getting attention is a great thing in my eyes. It would have been very easy for them to implement the typical save anywhere system and no one would complain - despite the game probably being worse for it. Save scummy systems aren't the most satisfying and with such a system you're often encouraged to brute force your way through problems. Hopefully there's some hard, save deleting, failure within the new system.
     
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  16. hell bovinegender: ⚧ Magister

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    Baldur's Gate doesn't have an 'ironman mode' at all, yet the "no reload" challenge was running on the old bioware boards for years (before they closed them down). By comparison, Pillars combat was so bland for me, that having an optional ironmode made no difference, because I'm not going to bother replaying that game either way. If the game mechanics are good enough to stand on their own, you don't need a save system to police players.

    "A DM doesn't just lets players 'reload' to check out other options in dialogue or combat to get better results" - Frankly, if your dialogues immediately let you know which is the better result, then I'd say your quest design is the problem. No save system is going to fix that. If on the other hand you'll see the consequences of a dialogue check only somewhere down the line (and isn't that the point of playing a spy game? double-crossing agents and unpredictable turn of event galore?), then you don't have to worry about players meta-gaming by reloading. And if combat design is good, then a character tripping the alarm and having to fight his way is going to be simply a fun alternative to sneaking.
     
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  17. The Fishgender: ⚧ Arbiter

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    This is largely a problem with save scum systems and the solution of having delayed outcomes is only really necessitated in save scum games. In games where you can't save scum you'll often not be aware of how much better or worse your choice was, even if the outcomes are immediate. Though I would agree that delayed outcomes are probably preferable the degree to which they're preferable very much depends on what type of save system you're using.

    You can play pretty much any game in a hardcore manner, the point is however that not all games are effected similarly by that decision. Playing Baldur's gate ironman isn't to Baldur's gate save scum what Path of Exile hardcore is to Path of Exile softcore. It may very well be true that baldur's gate is enjoyable in both ways and pillars enjoyable in neither way but what I was saying was that some games (Path of Exile, XCOM) are made much better in ironman while some are the same, worse or not a lot better (baldur's gate). So just saying "every game can be ironman if you want" isn't good enough because the design interacts with the save system.
     
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  18. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

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    Baldur's Gate is 2x better in Ironman mode. You actually have to use scrolls, potions and wands when playing Ironman.
     
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  19. The Fishgender: ⚧ Arbiter

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    Do you think that proves baldur's gate couldn't have been improved had it been designed primarily an ironman game?
     
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  20. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

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    I was not commenting about game design, just my observation when people mentioned BG and Ironman :D
     
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  21. hell bovinegender: ⚧ Magister

    hell bovine
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    Not really; I don't think it would have made a difference.. Baldur's Gate is by far not a perfect cRPG, but it's biggest weakness is that the only meaningful difference between characters is what class they are, because there are no dialogue checks for character attributes (e.g. a dumb grunt plays the same as a genius wizard), nor are the neutral and evil roleplaying opportunities that great. Neither of those issues would have been fixed by a system that prevents save-reloading.

    edit:
    I prefer delayed outcomes because it makes plotlines more interesting and not because of how a save system in a game works.

    For example: let's say a game has a quest to sell the Brooklyn bridge, implemented in such way that it's a simple skill check in dialogue. If you succeed you get extra cash and xp, if you fail you don't. Preventing reloading isn't going to fix the problem, which is that there is nothing more to this quest. Or you could add a second outcome: the future bridge owner either sends the police after you, or helps you in a different quest later in the game.

    It's not about knowing "how much better or worse your choice was", but rather that all outcomes lead to interesting - if different - results.
     
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  22. Zombragender: ⚧ Arcane Patron

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    It always strikes me as weird that a game can try a whole new combat system, a whole new stealth system, a whole new advancement system, new inventory system, new economic system, etc. and they will be discussed with pros and cons like anything else - but mention a new save system and suddenly it's this huge dealbreaker for people. :|
     
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  23. Kalingender: ⚧ Arcane

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    But seriously now, why is racist listed under disadvantages?
     
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  24. oasis789gender: ⚧ Arcane

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    As they say, it is what it is. It may be unfair, it may be irrational, but it is nonetheless a dealbreaker and we've seen this many times over.

    But it doesn't mean that the entire game has to cater to the lowest common denominator. The game can still be designed and balanced for ironman or quasi-ironman play, still encourage it (perhaps making it opt-out in charagen), and still give players the outside option to save anywhere.
     
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  25. ArchAngelgender: ⚧ Magister

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    Personally I don't have a problem with this save system as long as it is made to be part of the world but not like this when it is like Diablo and then fuck it. Diablo is ridiculous in everything, nobody cares if it has ridiculous respawn mechanics.
    What you are calling save mechanics are actually respawn mechanics. Save mechanics are save and quit.
     
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