Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

CKII is released.

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
Getting a casus belli for something as trivial as not liking you would make the effort of running a kingdom... Well, too trivial. Bottomline is that if you have a powerful vassal that's a thorn in your side, you need to put some effort into getting shit done about it. Say, send the spymaster to make up some bullshit if you never uncover a treasonous plot by them. Fabricate claims on their better lands and take them for yourself or grant to a more amiable vassal. Favor another vassal in disputes against them. Assassinate them. Provoke them to start a faction war that you can win. Become a heretic and purge the realm of popery/whatever. Bribe them with money and fancy hats. Sacrifice them to Satan. Or, just put more effort into being a popular ruler.

Gist is, you are supposed to have to put effort into cleaning house home first and then worry about the foreign devils around you. The game is about running the kindergarten/nest of vipers.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,241
The game has had a minimum tax and levy rate regardless of opinion for a long time. Think of that as the actual tax rate and the rest as gifts given in return for good will or something.

Not sure about this bit of history but I'm guessing if you actually tried to tax a town 50% in medieval Europe without there being 200k mongols on the horizon they'd revolt instantly. So the minimum is the legally minimum contribution. The rest is the inhabitants trying to butter you up and/or corruption.
 
Last edited:

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Um... medieval inhabitants aren't going to pay twice the tax they need to because they want to 'butter you up', and corruption is when tax collectors keep the money from the state
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,241
Um... medieval inhabitants aren't going to pay twice the tax they need to because they want to 'butter you up', and corruption is when tax collectors keep the money from the state

There's always been instances of leaders being willing to give a free hand to their underlings and look the other way so long as they benefited from more cash or better performance. Dunno if that's technically corruption but you get the deal. e.g. "I don't care what you do with your town so long as the money flows".
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2007
Messages
3,181
Getting a casus belli for something as trivial as not liking you
? I wouldn't care if it was just about them "not liking" - this is about them not paying what they are obligated to, which was never trivial.

What I'd do is give an uppity vassal a decision: a) to pay in full or b) withhold a certain amount, which then gives their liege a casus belli to enforce the full payment for 10 years.
For balance reasons, I'd make using the CB add a cumulative "tyrannical ruler" modifier to all vassals, but the CB should be there - it makes zero sense not to. We aren't playing Crusader Cucks here... are we?

The game has had a minimum tax and levy rate regardless of opinion for a long time. Think of that as the actual tax rate and the rest as gifts given in return for good will or something.
Maybe. Rather silly to expect someone to pay several times the amount they have to simply because they "like" their liege, though. If the goal was to butter up, the AI could've simply been given the option for occasional extra contribution via a decision.
Still, I forgot about the minimums. Kinda-sorta helps to larp it off, but I'd rather have vassals be the ones who have to pucker up for their liege, not the other way around. Let tyranny come with penalties, but the option should be there.
 

Tigranes

Arcane
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
Messages
10,350
Um... medieval inhabitants aren't going to pay twice the tax they need to because they want to 'butter you up', and corruption is when tax collectors keep the money from the state

There's always been instances of leaders being willing to give a free hand to their underlings and look the other way so long as they benefited from more cash or better performance. Dunno if that's technically corruption but you get the deal. e.g. "I don't care what you do with your town so long as the money flows".

Yeah, what happens is the tax collectors and town mayors get extra money, not the state. So it can make some sense for, say, Counts to extort their region, a la Roman governors - then it starts to make less sense to have superhigh taxes nationwide when you're a King (does CK actually calculate tax income feudally, i.e. you get % from nobles refracted by loyalty etc., or is it calculated raw from nation population?)
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,241
Yeah, OK. Still, I think the idea of people who don't like you complying less with your taxes makes sense. It's not like its the 21st century where we have computers and stuff to tabulate things. It's hard to figure out how much something is worth and how much a region is producing. That's kind of what the stewardship skill is and why you make more cash with it.
 

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
(does CK actually calculate tax income feudally, i.e. you get % from nobles refracted by loyalty etc., or is it calculated raw from nation population?)
Multiple stages, you first have the province's base tax income from holdings, buildings, and modifiers, which is then changed by the Stewardship of the people directly in control of the holdings, then the congaline of % tax up the feudal ladder modified by opinions starts.

? I wouldn't care if it was just about them "not liking" - this is about them not paying what they are obligated to, which was never trivial.

What I'd do is give an uppity vassal a decision: a) to pay in full or b) withhold a certain amount, which then gives their liege a casus belli to enforce the full payment for 10 years.
For balance reasons, I'd make using the CB add a cumulative "tyrannical ruler" modifier to all vassals, but the CB should be there - it makes zero sense not to. We aren't playing Crusader Cucks here... are we?
See, being able to use a CB to force full payment of taxes would be TOO EASY. It'd make managing your finances trivial. Furthermore, it'd be a completely gamist mechanic.

CK2 uses an abstraction of medieval taxation to make it into something simple enough to be used as a game mechanic (ie, taxes are collected as cash transfers to royal bank account, rather than all sorts of shit whatever peasant happens to be able to scrounge up as a living in a subsistence agriculture and almost never in gold or currency). Basically the gist is that while you have a GUI telling you that your vassal isn't paying as much as they could, the actual ruler you are playing as would have absolutely no idea this was the case. This is essentially an abstract form of corruption that's baked into backroom politics. The low opinion vassal is not merely someone who doesn't like you, they are a potential rebel and most likely a part of one dangerous faction if not the leader of it. They'd have every reason to come up with whatever plausible bullshit excuse (see letter saying "doge ateth thine taxes, liege, the peasants art starving woe is us" or whatever) but ultimately the game aspect here is that you are presented with a problem that if left unattended will at minimum sap your resources to grow as a problem or will explode into a bigger problem, with now you having to find a way to deal with the problem of which the game presents several. The trick is in finding a way that doesn't cause tyranny. Another thing to note is that the tax system itself is designed to work as a way of tying into the game's feudal state management mechanics, historical simulation would just have no taxation at all from the nobility (one of their most zealously guarded privileges until the downfall of estates system all across Europe), and would really just steal from your shit to build golden outhouses and such bullshit.

Also of note regarding earlier mention of 50% taxation is that you have been too inundated with living in the time of sensible and relatively human governing and economics. 50% was the low end of tormenting your peasantry scale, in places like Sweden-Finland it's estimated that it might be as high as 75% (EDIT: Of further note in regards to these estimates is that income taxation or percentile based taxation was not a thing, most common form of taxation was an arbitrary amount of tax based on what someone thought the peasant should be able to produce on their patch; we also aren't getting into all the exemptions and special cases like equipping and supporting a horseman for the king's army to gain tax exemption in Sweden-Finland). Thing is, taxation was not exactly an all that organized business, and one reason for why France organized itself so rapidly after the triple Henry shenanigans was that the estates of each subdivision of France handed the king indefinate right to set whatever new bullshit taxes they could come up with. That's also a thing that's not really presented in the game, that taxes consisted of many many bullshit taxes that were especially during wartime made up very arbitrarily to squeeze out every scrap of loose resources (mainly agricultural products, naturally) that could then be turned to cash. Another example of abstraction is that the Church takes its tenths from you rather than from all your peasants. If the game had a realistic presentation of medieval taxation, most players would be very confused by it, in rising debt funded by Italian bankers, and thinking "oh god I don't know how these poor peasants put up with all this shit heaped on them."
 
Last edited:

Vaarna_Aarne

Notorious Internet Vandal
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
34,585
Location
Cell S-004
MCA Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2
China when. I want to see if Swedes can do better ROTK-like than Japanese
Well, unless they radically alter the war mechanics the Japs probably have warfare in the bag, given that the recent KOEI strategy games have a very strong foundation from the emphasis on road networks, distance, and bottlenecks even before into the tactical view, which allows for strategic pincers and flanking.

On the other hand, CK2's moddability and its feudal management/"RPG" aspect is a very strong trump card for it.
 

vonAchdorf

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2014
Messages
13,465
Asia should be a different game like
H03LSZEm.jpg


I haven't even played an Indian game or the steppes and I own all the DLC.
 

Barbarian

Arcane
Joined
Jun 7, 2015
Messages
7,338
Horselords was decent enough I guess. I don't play nomads but it was nice to see them represented.

India was completely worthless and hurt the game's performance. China will be the same but worst. I hope they at least add some good bits to the game core mechanics because otherwise the new dlc will be just another excuse to use map cutting mods.
 

Mortmal

Arcane
Joined
Jun 15, 2009
Messages
9,182
Their DLC are adding less and less features but they are getting more expensives, its like 27 euros for last EU4 DLC mandate of heaven.Of course it will be a china dlc for ck2 too, to please one of their major shareholder. It will be rushed unfinished and untested.
 

baturinsky

Arcane
Joined
Apr 21, 2013
Messages
5,535
Location
Russia
Asia should be a different game like
H03LSZEm.jpg


I haven't even played an Indian game or the steppes and I own all the DLC.

Maybe not different games, but different scenarios. So I do not have to rape my CPU with 3/4 map I'm not interested in.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom