CKII is released.

[Hoaxmetal]

So it looks like CK2 is getting defensive coalitions now. I have no experience with EU, so how does this mechanic work out there, on a scale of "great!" to "it gave me aids-cancer"? What was explained here (and especially in the example given) doesn't look good.

Well, I am in the middle of my first EU4 grand campaign as Ottomans and after expanding too fast towards central Europe I was attacked by a coalition made of some neighboring christian countries. Basically they (rightfully) felt threatened by me expanding too fast (especially since I took many provinces that weren't my cores). The war was a nice challenge and I think that's a p. great system.

 

[Average Manatee]

The difficulty of blobbing in CK2 is supposed to be internal, where a large empire of multiple cultures and your own large dynasty leads to endless backstabbing that foils you even on the cusp of winning a war against an outside threat. Seems Paradox doesn't care about this any more and wants to make it an EU4 game. Well, we already knew Paradox hasn't wanted much difficulty in managing a realm for a while I guess.

I also don't really know of any coalitions like this happening in the time period. The closest thing to unified action across multiple realms were the crusades, which already exist and are clearly offensive in nature.

Also you apparently gain infamy even by inheriting land? wtf?

 

[Zero Credibility]

Yeah, that's a strange one - you can gain infamy by peacefully inheriting land. For example, a count inherits a kingdom/empire and suddenly he's infamous and everyone is turning against him? In the example they give muslims and christians join hands against another muslim. This is really weird since now all coalition members / allies will automatically enter war when one is attacked. Why would christian Georgia care if muslim Persia attacks muslim Afganistan or Egypt? Would all other muslim realms really defend infidels against their brothers in faith? Occasional inter-faith alliance / coalition is one thing, but to have all members automatically join all wars, no matter how little sense it makes... I just don't see it.

 

[Average Manatee]

Didn't even notice it also works across religions. That sounds incredibly ahistoric and silly. Alliances between religions were rare enough and even when they existed they often turned out to be worth less than the paper they were written on.

Infamy also doesn't really work for the time period I think. It works for the EU/Victoria era because the concept of balance of power and nationalism was a big thing, but in CK2's time the Roman Empire was still a very real thing and Europe again being dominated by a single power was a real possibility.

Hopefully as a mechanic its weak enough that it only comes into play if you are really out of control (like, pagan empire holy warring through Christendom every year blobby)

 

[Zero Credibility]

With all neighbours of the aggressor being in one coalition, I can already imagine the Karling-Abbasid coalition every time you try to take a county as ERE.

 

[LizardWizard]

It works for the EU

No it really doesn't. Minors are the only consistent nations that even see a coalition formed against them while ridiculous blobs go unchecked. I'm literally playing a EU4 campaign right now where the Ottomans took 80% of Austria and are snaking into Bavaria with nobody giving a shit apparently. France PU'd/integrated fucking Castile without a whimper. Meanwhile Europe has been busy gang banging Cologne/Munster for taking 3 provinces ad nauseum.

Infamy sounds like a much superior system and I don't really give a fuck if it's historical or not since CK2 definitely needs anti-blob mechanics. Hopefully it's moddable though.

 

[Average Manatee]

It works for the EU

No it really doesn't. Minors are the only consistent nations that even see a coalition formed against them while ridiculous blobs go unchecked. I'm literally playing a EU4 campaign right now where the Ottomans took 80% of Austria and are snaking into Bavaria with nobody giving a shit apparently. France PU'd/integrated fucking Castile without a whimper. Meanwhile Europe has been busy gang banging Cologne/Munster for taking 3 provinces ad nauseum.

Infamy sounds like a much superior system and I don't really give a fuck if it's historical or not since CK2 definitely needs anti-blob mechanics. Hopefully it's moddable though.

IIRC in EU4 the AI automatically gets -25% AE and the lucky nations (Which all of those GPs are) further get another -25% AE. So basically AI cheats to never have coalitions, the only reason you see it in the HRE is that there is a 2x multiplier to AE in there. If you did the same thing yourself as France or Ottomans you'd definitely get coalitioned. And how powerful AE is and how its calculated based on dozens of factors shifts wildly in literally every major update (and usually for a few hotfixes afterwards as players complain about it being messed up).

Blame paradox for shitty implementation as always.

 

[Hoaxmetal]

Who plays with lucky nations anyway.

 

[kris]

Who plays with lucky nations anyway.

People that want achievements do. I saw that they only count if you use that.

 

[Zero Credibility]

It looks like I missed something - coalitions are NOT only defensive, you can also call the coalition in an offensive war against the target. Not sure what's the point of marriage alliances then.

 

[Tigranes]

Who plays with lucky nations anyway.

People that want achievements do. I saw that they only count if you use that.

Achievement whores deserve all the shit they get from Bloboustrias.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

To block coalitions?

 

[Average Manatee]

Who plays with lucky nations anyway.

People that want achievements do. I saw that they only count if you use that.

Achievement whores deserve all the shit they get from Bloboustrias.

On one hand I agree, on the other hand if you play without lucky nations there's a good chance that 50 years in no real GP AIs will exist as they got torn apart by smaller nations or their own rebels.

 

[Zero Credibility]

Tried another game, first time as a tribal. But I'm not sure if I will continue it - I'm playing with the HIP mod and apparently someone on that mod decided that in the interest of balance raising tribal armies with prestige (the one good thing about being tribal) should be disabled - for the player only. A single county tribal AI just pulled thousands of troops out of his burned down county (or maybe his ass) when I tried to take it from him. But I can't do the same even though I have more prestige than him. I really fucking hate it when rules are different for the player and the AI. Seriously, fuck that.

 

[anus_pounder]

Tried another game, first time as a tribal. But I'm not sure if I will continue it - I'm playing with the HIP mod and apparently someone on that mod decided that in the interest of balance raising tribal armies with prestige (the one good thing about being tribal) should be disabled - for the player only. A single county tribal AI just pulled thousands of troops out of his burned down county (or maybe his ass) when I tried to take it from him. But I can't do the same even though I have more prestige than him. I really fucking hate it when rules are different for the player and the AI. Seriously, fuck that.

Agreed. Devs get zero credibility from me when they do that.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The tribal system in general needs a large overhaul IMO, since it's currently more like a pain in the ass you have to get over with ASAP unless you plan on using (or not with new HIP) dial-a-goons. Moreover, the tribal reform process and holding territory together is a seemingly insurmountable task for the AI.

 

[Average Manatee]

The tribal system in general needs a large overhaul IMO, since it's currently more like a pain in the ass you have to get over with ASAP unless you plan on using (or not with new HIP) dial-a-goons. Moreover, the tribal reform process and holding territory together is a seemingly insurmountable task for the AI.

It's Gavelkind that really fucks the AI. AI can't understand how to manage succession in a way that doesn't ensure a 90% chance of a kingdom being torn apart every generation. Tribals just get it worse with more short reign penalties.

Tried another game, first time as a tribal. But I'm not sure if I will continue it - I'm playing with the HIP mod and apparently someone on that mod decided that in the interest of balance raising tribal armies with prestige (the one good thing about being tribal) should be disabled - for the player only. A single county tribal AI just pulled thousands of troops out of his burned down county (or maybe his ass) when I tried to take it from him. But I can't do the same even though I have more prestige than him. I really fucking hate it when rules are different for the player and the AI. Seriously, fuck that.

Agreed. Devs get zero credibility from me when they do that.

Always happens when devs start putting "balance" or "challenge" ahead of gameplay.

 

[WhiteGuts]

Playing as a germanic norse, I raised tribal organization to 2nd highest level and I'm still not getting taxes from my vassals. Is it just impossible to get feodal tax when you're in tribal gubmint ?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

They need to like you and actually have montly income that's more than ant dicks in size. The latter is the main problem most of the time, tribal income even with multiple multi-slot provinces is non-existant. Instead, you just need to raid, raid, and raid.

 

[WhiteGuts]

They all pretty much like me (50+) and have some income. I don't ask much, just to wet my beak.

Spoiler

But yeah, raiding is fun.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

The tribal system in general needs a large overhaul IMO, since it's currently more like a pain in the ass you have to get over with ASAP unless you plan on using (or not with new HIP) dial-a-goons. Moreover, the tribal reform process and holding territory together is a seemingly insurmountable task for the AI.

Is tribal horde out of pocket still ridiculous? I remember doing some nice snowballs with it.

 

[WhiteGuts]

Nevermind I'm dumb, I missed the "tribal tax" law all the way down. I need to raise that too.

Also, any adivce on how to handle the Gavelkind succession ? Can I cheese it by giving almost all titles to the designated heir before dying to prevent the realm from splitting ?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The tribal system in general needs a large overhaul IMO, since it's currently more like a pain in the ass you have to get over with ASAP unless you plan on using (or not with new HIP) dial-a-goons. Moreover, the tribal reform process and holding territory together is a seemingly insurmountable task for the AI.

Is tribal horde out of pocket still ridiculous? I remember doing some nice snowballs with it.

I've never gotten a hang of using the snowballing dial-a-mook thing, which adds to my general annoyance with tribal system as it is now.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

The tribal system in general needs a large overhaul IMO, since it's currently more like a pain in the ass you have to get over with ASAP unless you plan on using (or not with new HIP) dial-a-goons. Moreover, the tribal reform process and holding territory together is a seemingly insurmountable task for the AI.

Is tribal horde out of pocket still ridiculous? I remember doing some nice snowballs with it.

I've never gotten a hang of using the snowballing dial-a-mook thing, which adds to my general annoyance with tribal system as it is now.

You have to master the art of chaining wars so that you are always at war while eventually getting more prestige for more armies from won wars. But at a certain point you will have to stop and get the house in order. If you time it wrong all your enemies will notice your huge loss in force and dial-a-mook your ass back.

 

[Average Manatee]

The tribal system in general needs a large overhaul IMO, since it's currently more like a pain in the ass you have to get over with ASAP unless you plan on using (or not with new HIP) dial-a-goons. Moreover, the tribal reform process and holding territory together is a seemingly insurmountable task for the AI.

Is tribal horde out of pocket still ridiculous? I remember doing some nice snowballs with it.

I've never gotten a hang of using the snowballing dial-a-mook thing, which adds to my general annoyance with tribal system as it is now.

You have to master the art of chaining wars so that you are always at war while eventually getting more prestige for more armies from won wars. But at a certain point you will have to stop and get the house in order. If you time it wrong all your enemies will notice your huge loss in force and dial-a-mook your ass back.

You can pause, end a war, do whatever shit requires a peace, then start a war the same day to keep your units.

It's not that hard honestly. Combat gives prestige and having shit tons of titles gives prestige. As a tribal you've also got concubines to get a good bit. It's not like CK2 has the lame-ass call for peace BS that EU4 has (yet, who knows what the next patch is bringing) so you can sit on wars for a year if you like.

They need to like you and actually have montly income that's more than ant dicks in size. The latter is the main problem most of the time, tribal income even with multiple multi-slot provinces is non-existant. Instead, you just need to raid, raid, and raid.

Yeah, this is a huge problem. Raising tribal organization is almost always a bad idea unless you play to reform immediately. You get hardly any gold and your vassal-raised levy size is completely shafted, on top of that everyone hates you more and will hate you even more if you raise your laws to try to counteract these problems.