CiV (Demo) is out

[Malakal]

Few funny threads about Civ V.

The truth about turn slowdowns:
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94115
http://forums.2kgames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94139

How do these idiotic programmers get jobs??? That's what I want to know.

Because most programmers are idiots? Seriously dont You know any IT students or actual programmers? They ARE idiots for the most part and since there is a LOT of demand then...

But quite frankly AI was NEVER a priority in any of Civ games I fear. I doubt they even had a team for it, more likely one-two people.

 

[1eyedking]

But quite frankly AI was NEVER a priority in any of Civ games I fear. I doubt they even had a team for it, more likely one-two people.

You really don't need more.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

IIRC there was some interview where Firaxis basically said one guy made the entire gameplay system, AI and all.

 

[Malakal]

But quite frankly AI was NEVER a priority in any of Civ games I fear. I doubt they even had a team for it, more likely one-two people.

You really don't need more.

Thats why we get awesome AI in all games. Oh wait, AI is ALWAYS shit and I cant even remember any good games with good AI since M.A.X. Perhaps it is POSSIBLE to create AIs with one-two people. If those people are really good. But obviously this is not the case in Civ.

 

[Overweight Manatee]

90% of AI development is testing it vs humans (smart and otherwise) and figuring out what works right. You can absolutely develop AI with a small number of people. In fact I would say 1 or 2 is optimal for a turn based game like Civ 5. The current AI just shows that whoever was play testing didn't bother to mention that the AI opponents would happily move archers next to your melee units and then end turn. Or if they did, whoever was responsible for the AI didn't really care.

But quite frankly AI was NEVER a priority in any of Civ games I fear. I doubt they even had a team for it, more likely one-two people.

You really don't need more.

Thats why we get awesome AI in all games. Oh wait, AI is ALWAYS shit and I cant even remember any good games with good AI since M.A.X. Perhaps it is POSSIBLE to create AIs with one-two people. If those people are really good. But obviously this is not the case in Civ.

MAX has exactly 1 person listed as the AI programmer FYI. The problem is more that noone cares about AI anymore. Everyone just assumes that if you want to play against something smarter then a rock that you will be playing multiplayer.

 

[spectre]

It all boils down to adequate testing, methinks. Regardless of wether we have a crack team of AI coders or a single geniusloked up in a basement, if they get unrealistic deadlines, the result will be undertested shit.

 

[Raghar]

But quite frankly AI was NEVER a priority in any of Civ games I fear. I doubt they even had a team for it, more likely one-two people.

I would hate to work on something as complex as AI with more than few people. In fact one two persons and multiple teams can archieve more than many retards that would type a lot of code that would be so slow it would be 1. unusable 2. lacking psychomodeling and the resulting feel would be similar like the opponent would be a standard retard from multiplayer games.

How do these idiotic programmers get jobs??? That's what I want to know.

They have universities, thus they are hired more easy than competent college dropouts, or people without education.

 

[Malakal]

But quite frankly AI was NEVER a priority in any of Civ games I fear. I doubt they even had a team for it, more likely one-two people.

I would hate to work on something as complex as AI with more than few people. In fact one two persons and multiple teams can archieve more than many retards that would type a lot of code that would be so slow it would be 1. unusable 2. lacking psychomodeling and the resulting feel would be similar like the opponent would be a standard retard from multiplayer games.

While I admit to having no experience on the subject I think that AI coding can be easily divided into parts in games such as Civ. Like workers AI, naval AI, military units AI, tech and production AI, territorial usage and specialization AI. While some of those areas influence each other (like production and area usage) others are compeltely independent (military units AI for example, it should simpyl work with what production gives it, while production should simply opt for as much production as feasible - Civ is abstracted enough that specialization isnt really needed so counters are largery unnecessary). Thus AI could be delegated to few people with perhaps team leader deciding on general direction.

 

[poocolator]

How do these idiotic programmers get jobs??? That's what I want to know.

They have universities, thus they are hired more easy than competent college dropouts, or people without education.

I don't think universities concentrate on "Game Programming" per se. And after spending untold thousands of dollars on a university education, I certainly wouldn't want a job as a game programming monkey.

So they're just incompetent college graduates.
Which begs the question: if the college dropouts were so competent, why'd they drop out?

 

[Overweight Manatee]

But quite frankly AI was NEVER a priority in any of Civ games I fear. I doubt they even had a team for it, more likely one-two people.

I would hate to work on something as complex as AI with more than few people. In fact one two persons and multiple teams can archieve more than many retards that would type a lot of code that would be so slow it would be 1. unusable 2. lacking psychomodeling and the resulting feel would be similar like the opponent would be a standard retard from multiplayer games.

While I admit to having no experience on the subject I think that AI coding can be easily divided into parts in games such as Civ. Like workers AI, naval AI, military units AI, tech and production AI, territorial usage and specialization AI. While some of those areas influence each other (like production and area usage) others are compeltely independent (military units AI for example, it should simpyl work with what production gives it, while production should simply opt for as much production as feasible - Civ is abstracted enough that specialization isnt really needed so counters are largery unnecessary). Thus AI could be delegated to few people with perhaps team leader deciding on general direction.

A lot of those things are so interconnected that each section would basically need to know how the others were working to know what to do in the first place. How does production know how much units to produce so that the military can win? How does the military know what cities are desirable for conquering? How does the tech AI know whether they need stronger troops now or can afford to research economic tech?

You can in theory add infinitely many programmers to a job to make something better (assuming they are used correctly). You just hit a plateau at some point where the gains scale off sharply. For Civ5 the sweet spot would probably be 1 or 2 people, not many more. This is dedicated, smart, people though. All signs point towards Civ 5 having neither.

 

[Malakal]

Yes I agree that in THEORY its all connected but in PRACTICE Civ doesnt have nearly enough techs or units for this to matter. Lets take late-ancient times: spearmen, archers, swordsmen, horsemen. Thats all. Code AI to build as much as it can afford while maintaining good balance of units (preset for each civ according to history, perhaps modified for terrain and enemy army composition, but come on, four units? How hard is that?). Its even easier in Civ 5 where units are limited due to resources.

Civ isnt that complicated. And its turn based, for it to have weak AI is an insult.

 

[1eyedking]

Malakal you're p. dumb. Please shut up.

 

[ChristofferC]

Btw my question was rethorical. I know why they get jobs. It's just too funny and stupid.

 

[Destroid]

I suspect programming good AI is still largely an art. Many people who program popular bots/ai mods for games get hired, which leads me to think you need a real talent for it rather than just being Joe programmer and get into AI coding.

The other way to get great AI is to design the game from the ground up to make it easy for the AI - I believe Glciv was designed this way.

 

[Goliath]

I have bought every Civ game (including all expansions) since the release of the original Civilization game. Well, except Revolutions, but the designers themselves said that Revolutions is not meant to be a part of the "real" Civ series but a casual spin-off for consoles. It's seems that, unfortunately Civ V does indeed continue the Revolutions line and thus the old Civilization series is finally dead.

Shirk mentioned how Civ 4 with BtS was considered to be near "perfect balance" by hardcore fans. Making Civ 5, they knew that making a better balanced game would be--"How do you make something over Beyond the Sword?" So they decided to change game concepts and such. And yes, as BtS pleased the hardcore fans, they decided to make 5 appeal more to those who might have loved Rev and wanted something more--but who may not be ready to leap into Civ 4's complexity.

 

[poocolator]

Translation:
"We don't give a flying fuck about our fans so we're going to go for the largest common denominator 'cause we're so fucking bloated we can't profitably produce games to cater to people who have more than 2 brain cells."

 

[Grunker]

 

[OSK]

Latest patch notes:

UI

* Fix for production prompt that sometimes appears with newly created puppet states that could stop the player from being able to end the turn.
* Aircraft banner corrections - now when you rebase an aircraft, the number will move with it.
* Resource icons now come up with Ctrl-R again, instead of sharing the same button with Build Roads.
* Selecting a great general will no longer cause yield icons to appear.
* Added option to disable auto-unit cycling.
* Fix for full-screen game when running dual monitors. Previously, the curser could scroll off the "open" side, and not be able to scroll the map in that direction.
* Misc additional fixes to mouse controls, and other interface issues.
* Rounded out financial information in the Economic Overview screen.
Details now provided on the amount of gold provided by each city, the cost of buildings in each city, etc.
* Auto-populate save menu with save file name
* Allow selection of other cities by hex from within the city screen
* Added detailed trade route info to Economic Overview screen
* Added new tab to the Economic Overview Screen: "Resources & Happiness."
* Added option to activate the mp score list in single player (for "always up" score similar to Civ IV.)
* The Annex/Puppet/Raze popup now indicates how much extra Unhappiness will be assumed with each action.
* If there are less than 5 buildings still needed to construct a National Wonder, the production popup tool-tip now lists which cities lack them.
* Added Yield & Culture tool-tip info to the production popup.
* Tweak information on the Global Politics tab in the Diplomacy Overview screen.


MODDING

* Category list now displays correctly
* "Installed" panel now displays ALL versions of a mod but prevents the user from enabling multiple versions.

GAMEPLAY

* Workers - Added option to force workers to ignore manually made improvements (so they don't change what you decide was best for a plot).
* Workers - Fixed bug where number of turns to complete were incorrect in build action button tool-tip.
* Economy - Fixed bug where players could disband a single unit, and not see the economic return until disbanding 1 more.
* Economy - Increased city wealth setting to 25%
* Economy - Multiple fixes to the way trade-routes are tabulated and recognized.
* Economy - Can now sell Buildings in a city (to help lower maintenance for obsolete buildings later in the game).
* Trade - Found and corrected a Trade problem that could cause your Resource inventory to multiply.
* City States - Fixed a bug where you could not gift aircraft to city states.
* Military - Medic promotion now only provides healing bonus for adjacent units.
* Military - Fix for Minuteman movement.
* Military - Correct promotions for "archer-like" units (horse archers, chariots).
* Military - Embarked units will no longer slow enemy land units
* Military - Improved unit cycling logic. Camera will jump around much less.
* Balance - Engineers +1 hammer
* Balance - Disbanding units now provides only 10% of their production cost in gold.
* Request - Enable "one more turn" button if you lose, but are still alive.


AI

* Military - Better handling of unit need (navy vs land, etc.).
* Military - AI will tend to build ships to deal with blockaded cities more often
* Military - Corrected an issue hampering movement of AI armies, especially when in close proximity to enemy forces
* Diplomacy - AI will be more reluctant to offer or accept open border agreements with more powerful opponents.
* Diplomacy - Fix for never ending deals (peace, research agreements, etc).
* City - City specialization and city focus improvements.
* City - Cities that are Avoiding Growth will not grow while that option is selected
* Workers - Priority of trading posts reduced, and rebalanced priorities on other improvements
* Workers - Improved the path-finding mechanic when building route-to roads improved, including a large performance increase when evaluating road-pathing.
* City - Make sure Puppets don't construct buildings that require Resources.
* City - Add a Puppet city strategy that turns off training buildings and emphasizes gold.
* Military - Defensive tactical AI update. When you are at war and threatening an enemy city, the AI will better utilize the garrison, as well as the surrounding terrain in defense of the target city.


MULTIPLAYER

* Exploit - Fix for gifting unit exploit
* Chat - Color-coding, sound alerts, etc., added for in-game chat system, including a larger window.
* Deals - Additional deal validation put in place to verify deals before they are committed


MISC

* Research treaties that end because you declare war will no longer grant the free tech
* Save/Load - Fix for corrupted saves being experienced by some players in late-game.
* Map - Huge map crash-during-load fix that were reported on some specific systems.
* Map - Terrain caching fix that could cause problems for certain video cards (the "glowing red orbs" seen on the map are an indicator of this).
* Map - Fix for the low res terrain that appears the first time the game is run (terrain tiles would not load in anything but low-res the first time you play on some computer configurations)
* Strategic View - Crash fix for units rendering in background.
* Strategic View - Fix for selecting units either standing on a city plot, or garrisoned in the city plot.
* Eyefinity - Better handling of leader scenes when using Eyefinity displays.
* Tutorials - Many tutorial tweaks and adjustments.
* Multiple crash fixes.
* Taller than wide map crash fix.

 

[Malakal]

So they fixed nothing really but the most annoying things. Great patch

 

[ChristofferC]

Yeah game is still just as bad.