Tacticular Cancer: We'll have your balls

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Editorial Chris Avellone on Wasteland's Old-School Skill Set Symphony

Discussion in 'RPG Codex News & Content Comments' started by Crooked Bee, May 7, 2012.

  1. Crooked Bee Nyadmin Patron

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    Tags: Chris Avellone; Skills; Wasteland

    In his latest blog post, Chris Avellone writes about his experience replaying Wasteland, the nature of the game's old-school skill set, and faulty androids. Have a snippet:

    One thing I wanted to vent about concerning old-school RPGs like Eternal Dagger, Wizard’s Crown, and Wasteland, is the more you give a player the ability to customize their own skills (and stats, although in WL, it’s random), the more you can build a character you can role-play, and imo, you can do it much better than you can if you’re simply given an archetype or limited stat set.

    Detour: Not to plug the Hero System (pen and paper, I was first exposed to it through Champions, then Dark Champions), but the amount of character building and customization, point-for-point, was one of the primary reasons I loved making characters for that game. Granted, the knowledge of math you need (and potentially Excel knowledge) is huge, but, to continue my tangent, the fact you could customize your flaws and disadvantages was also huge. Anyway, enough about the Hero System. If you haven’t played it, you should. Or read one of their sample characters in one of their sourcebooks to get a feel for it. I’d recommend you check out Underworld Enemies and see what got me excited about character creation mechanics. Don’t worry, I don’t get any $$$ from it, so this would solely be for demonstrable purposes.

    So skills contributing to role-playing: As an example, when building my Wasteland party of four Rangers again, all I knew to start is I wanted a Brainiac, a Thief, a Jack of All Trades/Gunslinger as party leader, and a Melee Specialist because I like bashing the **** out of things with clubs, axes, and chainsaws. With those basics in mind, I went ahead and went through the Wasteland stat and skill set and built personalities formed by the random roll (although biased toward accepting characters with a high IQ, since IQ is a big “win” in Wasteland – and this should remind me to do a blog on how prevalence of usefulness of skills and abilities can ruin role-playing and a lack of balance can do the same) and also based on the skills that were provided to me and what points I put into them.

    [...] Wasteland did have a flaw in that not all of the skills were equally useful, and often, the more special-case the skill was and the more limited the weapon selection was for that skill (Knife Throw, Confidence), you could waste points by dumping them in a skill. That said, it was hard to make a completely useless party, it was still possible to complete the game with a bunch of chumps (even the Bad News Bears could triumph), and that’s part of the fun.

    And even realizing that some skills were useless, I put points in them because I thought it suited the character personalities more. If they're going to let me do it, I'll use it if I feel it rounds out the character.

    [...] Having fun and digging about the pre-knowledge of Wasteland and memories of my crappy knowledge of coding in Basic way back in the days of the TSR-80, I thought it’d be cool if I built an android that incorporated some elements of the 80s and came up with a makeshift bio:

    G.I.G.0: Stands for “Garbage In, Garbage Out,” and his name reinforces that there’s something flawed in this character’s intrinsic android programming, since the last character is a “zero” not the letter “O.” I saw him as a damaged android the Rangers deem only worthwhile for reconnaissance in hazardous areas, notably because it seems like he’s been damaged already (“past warranty” is what G.I.G.0 occasionally says, although no one’s quite sure what he means when he says this - they assume it’s a location in the game, and who knows, they may be right).

    While G.I.G.0 will respond to his name when addressed, he will remind each new speaker once that “G.I.G.0.” is not his original designation, which has left some inhabitants of the Wasteland to wonder what kind of nation this “Desig” may be and if all the residents are like G.I.G.0.

    To continue reading G.I.G.0's lengthy backstory, head over to the full blog post.
    Gregz, bonescraper, Jack Burton and 4 others Brofist this.
  2. marooned Educated

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    That's good and all that but only if you can at least do something with it. Not saying it's his particular case, of course. He makes a lot of good points overall. It's just that I hate game mechanics that are only good just for the sake of "role playing".

    A good read. :love:
    Marsal Brofists this.
  3. Stinger Liturgist

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    This basically. It's nice to come up with these extensive backstories for these characters but unless it's actually acknowledged in game it's basically just LARPing.

    Now Fallout New Vegas, and Fallout in general but FNV especially has a shitload of stat checks, is a great example of this done well because your stats played a part in how you solved quests and the large numbers of stat checks that could come into play. Drinking with Cass for example has several different dialogue options based on your Endurance with a different stat check for each Endurance level, in some cases even multiple dialogue options with the same stat threshold. If you wanted to create a character who was physically quite weak and not great at handling his beer then low END and low Strength would actually help to reflect this personality through stat checks, often failed stat checks, and the like.

    Low INT is of course another great example of this. As are all the perks and traits and skills that not only affect quest design but have enough of a role in expressing the character's personality thanks to the varied dialogue options that are tied to stats and skills. This for me is the important part.

    Skyrim and Oblivion also have a fair number of skills but since those games are so heavily combat centric it doesn't really affect playstyle and stat thresholds barely have a role in dialogue and quest design, not to mention said dialogue is incredibly bland and poorly written. So even if you come up with an extensive backstory about your PC you'd have no way to express it in game. That's not 'roleplaying' or whatever you want to call it, that's just making stuff up.
    Sacculina, Excidium, metzger and 2 others Brofist this.
  4. hiver Dumbfuck!

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    heh, good read, as always. that G.I.G.0 fella sounds interesting. Hopefully he/it will be in the game.
    Sounded a bit like those funny little guys Sebastian used to make, if only in character.

    As for usefull skills issue. Just separate skills into two categories. Primary for those having big roles in the gameplay and Secondary for those that have limited use in "roleplaying".
    Of course, most desirable thing would be to make all of them useful throughout the game.

    lengthy backstory ahoy.
  5. Saint_Proverbius Arcane Patron

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    The one nice thing about Wasteland, IMHO, is that if you didn't have the uber skill - the base attribute would take over for the roll. Not a trained climber? If you're athletic enough, you could still do it. I always kind of liked that. Of course, that opens up the whole can of worm when it comes to balancing things out in terms of scripting and making the world make use of that mechanic. If too many skills use a base attribute which comes in to play far too often, just pump that attribute and use skills for other things. Neat mechanic, but requires a lot of thought.
    likaq Brofists this.
  6. CarnivalBizarre Learned

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    I love my Chris. :love:
  7. Country_Gravy Erudite

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    Is it strange that I get an erection when a developer mentions Wizard's Crown and The Eternal Dagger, even when it has nothing to do with making a game like them?

    When is someone going to kickstart a spiritual successor to these games?
    Doc Savage and Crooked Bee Brofist this.
  8. Menckenstein Lunacy of Caen: Todd Reaver

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    Excited to see what a somewhat unrestrained MCA comes up with. Otherwise he's like Bach stuck doing Raffi's job.
  9. bonescraper Arbiter

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    Talk to me nedry, Kurisu-sama. :love:
  10. Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    First comment at that, and no codexers seem to be commenting on it - makes you think.
  11. Gregz Liturgist

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    *reads OP*

    Confidence +1
  12. Saint_Proverbius Arcane Patron

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    Whatever happened to J.E. Sawyer? I remember there was a lot of FANBOI LUB surrounding him when BIS started working on a Fallout 3 before Interplay went *POOF*. I also remember some of the really idiotic things he was coming up with, such as revamping the skills in Fallout 3 and adding Dual Pistol Wielding because it "was impossible to beat Fallout or Fallout 2 with a pistol", which is silly since you can make a great argument that the gauss pistol is the best weapon in Fallout 2. That and the One Hander Trait made pistols uber-deadly.

    MCA has some good ideas, and he's great at telling stories. I'd be careful on seeing what all he could do across the board without someone telling him what to do until that happens. It could be super, but then again, people were saying the same thing about J.E. Sawyer way back when, and he had a hell of a lot of really silly ideas and misconceptions when he was given nearly full control on Fallout 3/Van Buren.
    Araanor, likaq and Brayko Brofist this.
  13. St. Toxic Prophet

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    It still wouldn't be as powerful as if you specialized in a skill; jack-of-all-trades (master of none) again.
  14. Infinitron RPG Codex Staff Patron

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  15. Whisper Learned

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    Someone please post this quote on Diablo 3 forum. Which made sure you cant do any "wrong choice" about character generation and developement (and cant do "good" choices either, since you have no choice over your skills or stats except gear).
  16. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

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    Actually, I don't see what's so good about that quote. One of the worse things he said in this post. It's a prime example of LARPing to put points in a skill that you KNOW it's not useful, just because in your mind that character should be good at whatever that skill does.
  17. Clockwork Knight Arcane

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    LARPing is pretending that something happens in the game when it just happens in your mind, such as sitting for a few minutes after downing a potion because "it needs time to work". Spending points in useless skills is kinda silly but it's not larping because the skills are there.

    Reminds me of that thread about Science being shit because it's useful once or twice in Fallout 1.
  18. Whisper Learned

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    We should be allowed to make choices - even if some of them are better and some are worse. Removing choice a-la Diablo 3 is just dumbing down what little left of RPG (which is based on choices as one of main principles).
  19. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

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    Well, if you know they're useless, but (to use your Science example) want to play a "scientist" when there's really no place for it in the game, then it is LARPing. If you don't know they're useless, I guess it's not LARPing, but a failed build.

    And well, Science sucked because it didn't have enough uses. The problem isn't that it's there though, it's that there aren't enough uses for it.

    See above. They shouldn't be removed, they should have more uses. Whether non-combat skills should have the exact same usefulness and the combat ones is another discussion. But to have skills that have 1-2 uses in the whole game is simply bad, no question about it.
    Kz3r0 and Excidium Brofist this.
  20. Haba Harbinger of Decline Patron

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    The player should be allowed to make choices, even bad ones. Better if the game recognizes those poor choices and comments on them occasionally.

    IMHO RPG where you roll one character and win the game is missing a crucial part.

    You know, in the olden days we didn't min-max our character builds, use FAQs and walkthroughs to optimize skill selection and then proceed to complain about the relative ease we'd finish the game. Sometimes your dungeon romping didn't have any story, excluding the marketing blurb on the back side of the box. Didn't call that larping, called it having imagination.
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  21. FeelTheRads Arcane Patron

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    Bad choice can be putting points into strength for a wizard and such. "Implementing" bad choices by having useless skills is not good really good design.
    Kz3r0, likaq and Excidium Brofist this.
  22. Johannes Liturgist

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    But then we grew up.
  23. curry Arbiter

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    Didn't he come up with most of the good stuff in FNV?
  24. Temaperacl Augur

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    Pity. Life is much more enjoyable and, as far as I can tell from coworkers and friends, less stressful for those of us who kept using our imagination or enjoying "simple things".

    True, putting completely useless skills is generally not a good thing, but having skills that are less useful than others (Knife Throwing in WL) is not necessarily a bad thing.
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  25. RK47 No time like the present Patron

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    :lol: I can just imagine his reaction and the slowly lowering palm as he brushes against his hair, eventually covering his face at 5 am in the morning reading it.
    What the fuck happened to gamers?
    Doc Savage Brofists this.

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