Arcanum Chris Avellone Arcanum LP

[Major_Blackhart]

Dude, as pumped as I was over Arcanum, first fucking thing I did was read the goddamn manual.

 

[circ]

Well I didn't read the manual and I had no major problems with the wolves. I also didn't read a faq about optimal builds either but went with whatever. Then I met some troll gang on a bridge and challenged them. And I died.

 

[HanoverF]

It's just that Oblivion has never made a game with a worthwhile manual, so Chris has forgotten what they are

 

[Brayko]

True story. I learned the basics of ADnD by reading the Baldur's Gate 2 manual, too socially unfunctional to actually play ADnD but hey it got me through the door.

Where am I now? Posting on the Codex.

 

[Menckenstein]

So just so I understand this thread, Chris Avellone just proved himself to be a Hepler-tier gamer?

 

[Rivmusique]

So basically we arguing how a wine maker lacks qualification for his job if he's not good at getting drunk?

I dunno but MCA is a pretty good wHine maker. HA.

HAHAHAHA.

 

[Roguey]

So just so I understand this thread, Chris Avellone just proved himself to be a Hepler-tier gamer?

He proved this a long time ago.

http://www.formspring.me/JESawyer/q/229487270162338509

This will probably sound really bad, but I don't think most RPG designers actually think about gameplay -- especially not core gameplay. I think this is due to a few problems: first, some gamers (and even some game devs) view gameplay as a chore. They are quite vocal about wanting to pursue the story and characters more as a choose-your-own adventure novel than as an integral part of a role-playing game. Because of this, designers often focus on the creative aspects of RPGs to a fault -- essentially letting the core gameplay elements fall by the wayside. The result is, unsurprisingly, worse gameplay that even more players are loathe to engage.

That's Planescape Torment and most Obsidian games all right.

 

[thesoup]

Including New Vegas.

 

[Roguey]

Including New Vegas.

New Vegas has fun gameplay, so decrees Sawyer and the millions who bought it (more than Fallout 3).

There's a huge difference between how they handled kotor2 and NV in regards to gameplay.

 

[sea]

I do think he's right. A lot of RPGs that have fantastic quests, story, writing, characters and so on are fun because of it, but they often have weak core gameplay mechanics which either are not thought out well, not well balanced, not rewarding, or worse, are just plain boring busywork until you get to the "fun parts."

It's very easy to fall into that school of thinking where you say "it's got quests, dialogue, characters, it's an RPG!" without realizing that creating interesting scenarios and actual gameplay actions requires more than just narrative. It also tempts level design where you basically come up with great ideas for gameplay environments but then in practice all you do is slap down a bunch of houses/random hallways, put some copy-pasted enemies in there and call it a day. Outside of RPG development, most studios actually put tons of hard, long hours into figuring out how to construct entertaining and well-paced scenarios which have unique mechanics and ideas; at an RPG studio it all goes into the writing, presentation and scripting to make sure none of your 500 simultaneous plot threads will break each other.

I can count the number of modern Western RPGs which actually have engaging, fun gameplay in its own right on less than one hand.

 

[Gozma]

I can count them on zero hands. RPG elements are inimical to core gameplay

 

[tuluse]

Fun is the in the eye of the beholder. Are point and click adventure games fun? I certainly enjoy them but describing the game play is "well I thought about things for a while and then I clicked on two things to combine them before clicking on a third thing to use them on it.

 

[thesoup]

Including New Vegas.

New Vegas has fun gameplay, so decrees Sawyer and the millions who bought it (more than Fallout 3).

There's a huge difference between how they handled kotor2 and NV in regards to gameplay.

Millions also bought Skyrim proving that it has better "gameplay". Or wait, how about CoD? Ditch the argument from authority.
The only difference is that kotor2's gameplay mechanics were copied from kotor and NV's from F3.
NV's combat is shit. Slightly better than F3's, but shit nonetheless. Ballistics are shit (snipers are useless beyond 150m, assault rifles have a range of 20m) , the gun feel (recoil, sound) isn't really there and this is all without even going into the tedium that is the bloated HP after level 40 and no difficulty in the game whatsoever past level 5 and the first part of Dead Money (once you reach the casino itself it becomes shit easy like the rest of the game). I'm not even going to mention VATS because only a complete idiot would ever use it more than once which is enough to see the retarded idea and implementation of it. Speshul is also shit, letting you max fucking everything from skills to attributes (well not literally everything, but you get pretty close). Hilariously, skills increase damage of your firearms. Yes, that is how guns work. Underrail, a fucking one man project from a debut developer from Serbia has better balance, challenge and combat design.
Clearly, that NV is a good game has not that much to do with Sawyer.
Before someone goes edgy and says I played on easy with cheats, no - I played on Hard with Hardcore mode on from the get go.
Now before you claim gameplay =/= combat: combat is a part of it and a massive on. In fact, the biggest one and the worst one at the same time. If we're going to talk about other aspects of gameplay:
Stealth - hahaha no
Hyperlink dialogue mini game - how nice for the game to conveniently tell me what stats I need to unlock a convo option
Exploration - except for a few hidden quests, there is none. Follow the quest compass, hurrah. Also fast travel.
Uh... What else is there? Minigames? Fuck minigames.


Sawyer has yet to prove himself as an outstanding designer you claim he is.

 

[Murk]

Dude Roguey is a puzzle monster like Volourn. You're supposed to just not aggro it and move on, otherwise you waste a bunch of time and get quoted at.

 

[Roguey]

Hilariously, skills increase damage of your firearms. Yes, that is how guns work.

See when you say things like this I find it difficult to take you seriously.

New Vegas has some of the best shooting combat of any shooter with role playing. Pseudosimulationist suckers need not apply. /self-evident

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

Saying there's no exploration in New Vegas is rather preposterous. A lack of quest compass does not eliminate linearity altogether; free-roaming and non-linear design do. You can have a highly restricted world with no quest compass.

Like Bloodlines.

 

[Gozma]

New Vegas had by far the best gun play of any open world container opening game

 

[thesoup]

Hilariously, skills increase damage of your firearms. Yes, that is how guns work.

See when you say things like this I find it difficult to take you seriously.

New Vegas has some of the best shooting combat of any shooter with role playing. Pseudosimulationist suckers need not apply. /self-evident

Well I'm sorry for asking for consistency. Fallout doesn't have majix, but now it has apparently. Having your skill increase the lethality of a bullet is inconsistent with the game world. You can call it a cry for immershun if you want to. Deus Ex did it better. Yes, it also had damage increase depending on skill, but it was like 10%, i.e. basically none, but the difference in reload speed, accuracy and recoil was huuuuuuuge which made or broke a gun for you.
Let's see some shooters with role playing:
Deus Ex - I liked the combat, most say it's shit though
Bloodlines - shit gunplay
Alpha Protocol - hahaha no
E.Y.E: Divine Cybermancy - fan-fucking-tastic gunplay

Can't really think of any more. So that's 2/4 it's arguably better than as far as gunplay goes, which is still mediocre on the best day of the week. The shiniest of turds is still a turd nonetheless.

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

So abstractions are only conveniently believable outside action-oriented gameplay? Is increasing your science, medicine, first aid skills by killing scorpions and rats in Fallout 1/2 consistent with its game world, then?

 

[Irenaeus]

So abstractions are only conveniently believable outside action-oriented gameplay? Is increasing your science, medicine, first aid skills by killing scorpions and rats in Fallout 1/2 consistent with its game world, then?

Yeah, that also makes no sense at all.

 

[Helton]

Eagerly anticipating Season 1 what is taking so long omg

 

[t]

He totally should livestream it at twitch.

 

[Carrion]

So abstractions are only conveniently believable outside action-oriented gameplay?

"Abstraction" means taking a real-life concept and eliminating unnecessary characteristics from it while retaining the relevant ones. Making up nonsensical shit has got nothing to do with it.

 

[Tommy Wiseau]

So abstractions are only conveniently believable outside action-oriented gameplay?

"Abstraction" means taking a real-life concept and eliminating unnecessary characteristics from it while retaining the relevant ones. Making up nonsensical shit has got nothing to do with it.

And how, exactly, can you determine what constitutes irrelevant and unnecessary in a representation of something, and that the ability of a character to shoot a gun determining in-game damage be a less accurate depiction of real-life than, say, using something like Luck to determine critical hit chance? Or curing eye damage with a doctor's bag?

It's a very selective form of deciding what's plausible in a game and what's not.

 

[Carrion]

And how, exactly, can you determine what constitutes irrelevant and unnecessary in a representation of something

That's the developers' decision, obviously. I'm just reiterating the dictionary definition here.

and that the ability of a character to shoot a gun determining in-game damage be a less accurate depiction of real-life than, say, using something like Luck to determine critical hit chance? Or curing eye damage with a doctor's bag?

I don't know, does that have anything to do with whether NV's gunplay makes any sense? Curing eye damage with a doctor's bag is a simplified version of performing eye surgery, i.e. an abstraction. Having bullets do a different amount of damage based on who's pulling the trigger is reinventing the laws of physics, i.e. not an abstraction.