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Carmack accused of stealing Zenimax's tech for Oculus VR

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Even if he did it, Carmack didn't then personally create Oculus VR as a sole inventor. Given that there were a bunch of very similar projects being developed by different companies simultaneously, I'm guessing (purely hypothetically) that the tech wasn't so exceptionally unique that it's mere existence is evidence of IP infringement, nor were the design specs likely to have such character that one could easily pick them out as the work of Zenimax instead of another company researching the same thing.

Which means the difficulty isn't so much proving that Carmack took anything, but adequately discrediting the alternative explanation that other employees on the Oculus project came up with the same idea independently.
 

Cazzeris

Guest
Why not Wolf3d?

It would make feel the player quite dizzy.

I'm playing Wolfenstein 3D for the first time and sometimes I have to look at my room's wall because the game runs with a strange FOV and, every time I walk; everything moves from its place. The game also has a very "special" control.

If I play Wolf3D with Oculus Rift I will puke.
 

Spectacle

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Whatever the outcome, I hope ZionMax and Oculus make up before Elder Scrolls 6 comes out. A hiking sim seems like the perfect kind of game to play in VR!
 
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Well, in patent law at least (but that may differ from country to country), if you invent something that might result in a patent while you are working for some company and said company has any reasonable proof that your invention is the result of your work there or has been done using company resources, you are at their mercy.

However, this seems not to be a patent case but "only" IP? Anyway, lets get out the popcorn and see what comes out of it.

Patent laws on computer tech are very similar in most countries due to trade treaties attempting to create a consistent rule-set due to the international nature of the market - and you're right, any IP that an employee creates in the process of his employment belongs to the employer (the idea being that the employee is just filling a role, while the employer is conducting the overall research project). This doesn't extend to private out-of-work inventions of the employee unless they've got a very strange contract, BUT if you're private after-hours invention happens to be in much the same kind of area as that which makes up your day job, and you're using ideas developed in the course of your day job, then odds are that a court (or patent authority) is going to view the work as either being in the course of your employment, or as breaching your employer's IP (because if you weren't doing the work for them, you've got no reason to be using their ideas in the first place - even if you're the employee who came up with 'their' ideas).

As for being 'just' IP - intellectual property is the umbrella term, a patent is a type of IP. Patents are legislative inventions (created by statute, not common law), where if you invent something of sufficient originality, you get a temporary monopoly over it (the invention doesn't need to be functional - patents are routinely taken out over inventions that only exist in design documents, or ideas that are sufficiently detailed to spell out what is original about the invention, but without anyone actually knowing how to practically build the thing and make it work). The duration of the patent depends on the type of patent applied for and the country (though again, trade treaties are making these things increasingly uniform) - but from memory, the longest time you can get a patent for is 20 years (there are shorter patents that are easier to get, as they don't require as much originality). I can't recall the specifics (haven't touched this since law school - in Australia, ordinary lawyers aren't allowed to advise or work on patent cases; there are specialist 'patent attorneys', who are usually scientists or engineers) but I think there are some mechanisms for extending the time period if it's going to take an exceptionally long time to start commercially producing the invention, but ultimately it's still a hard time limit - it isn't like copyright where Disney keeps ass-kissing the WTO in order to extend the duration of their IP.

Note that this temporary nature means that patents are certainly NOT the king of IP - they give you a temporary window in which you can recoup your R+D costs and make enough of a profit to make it commercially worthwhile to conduct research, but after that time limit is up then all your competitors can start making the same product. What's more - by applying for the patent, you've told your competitors how to fucking make your product - the design docs are in the patent application, and all your competitors can just look it up in the registry:).

This means that REALLY big commercial secrets often aren't patented. Take the formula for Coca-cola after they stopped putting cocaine in it. It isn't protected by ANY intellectual property. They could patent it - but if they did, then all their competitors would have the formula in 20 years time with no protection. Instead, they just use good old fashioned we'll-fucking-shoot-you-if-you-leak-the-info secrecy: they separate key parts of the ingredient from the bottling factories, those parts arrive at the factories as bags of syrup that get added to the 'known' parts of the product, those bags of syrup are themselves comprised of elements made in separate locations, and there's literally only 1-2 guys in every market region that know the full details of the formula (they need to declare the base ingredients to health and food authorities, but not the full proportions or manufacturing process). This means that if there's a leak, they can identify who it was, and then sue them out of existence for breaching their personal secrecy contracts (and hell, I wouldn't be surprised if they really did heavily suggest that anyone who leaks the goddamn coca-cola formula could meet an untimely death).
 

Abelian

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Whatever the outcome, I hope ZionMax and Oculus make up before Elder Scrolls 6 comes out. A hiking sim seems like the perfect kind of game to play in VR!
Maybe they'll create a console version that includes a treadmill accessory to complete the immersion experience.
 

Metro

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One of the most interesting claims, though, is that a financial spat with ZeniMax is the reason that Doom 3 BFG never ended up supporting VR. Doom 3 was one of the first games tested with the Rift, and it was supposed to be one of the very first games released for it — every development kit, in fact, was supposed to come with a copy.​
Oh, yeah, I'm sure players would have appreciated getting ambushed by monsters in dark rooms right in their face. :roll:
 

Drakron

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They might legitimately believe they were fucked over and not just trying to fuck someone over for no good reason. That's why it's gonna be up to a judge to decide.

Considering their history, I doubt it ... We know what happened with New Vegas and thats is unlikely to been the first case, a lots of developers apparently rather not work with them, in fact ...

On February 28, 2006, Moonves led CBS to file a $500 million lawsuit against Howard Stern for allegedly breaching his contract by failing to disclose the details of his deal with Sirius Satellite Radio while still employed by Infinity Broadcasting. Stern vowed to fight the suit, and claimed on his radio program that Moonves and CBS were trying to "bully" him and his agent, Don Buchwald. Stern later appeared on CBS' own Late Show with David Letterman, wearing a shirt mocking Leslie and his wife. On June 7, 2006, Stern announced that the lawsuit had been settled. As part of the settlement, Sirius acquired the exclusive rights to all of the WXRK tapes (over two decades worth of shows) for $2 million.

Guess who sits on the board?
 

Abelian

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Cyberwalk
:decline:
Wow, somebody actually spent cold hard cash to create a real-life hiking simulator because they cannot into going outside.
Wait until they realize that real life walking speed is way too slow for video games, but they can't enable run mode due to their low stamina.
 

chestburster

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... really detailed and nice patent law introduction material ...

Nice to meet a fellow law school survivor.

As far as I understand, this case is more about trade secrets and "know-how" than patents or copyrights (none of the algorithms behind the codes were patented; Carmack didn't take the copyrighted codes). My law school IP course was really fuzzy about trade secrets and made no mention of "know-how."

How can Zenimax prove that they DO have some tangible IP in the "know-how," as opposed to that "know-how" being only an abstract mathematical idea solely in the domain of Carmack's brain?
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Nice to meet a fellow law school survivor.

As far as I understand, this case is more about trade secrets and "know-how" than patents or copyrights (none of the algorithms behind the codes were patented; Carmack didn't take the copyrighted codes). My law school IP course was really fuzzy about trade secrets and made no mention of "know-how."

How can Zenimax prove that they DO have some tangible IP in the "know-how," as opposed to that "know-how" being only an abstract mathematical idea solely in the domain of Carmack's brain?
My understanding is that's it's mostly about intentionally confusing the judge and/or jury using technical jargon so they have no idea what's going on while hoping that the feel something has been taken.
 

DalekFlay

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It's all about proving Zenimax employees, including Carmack, worked on the Oculus tech and that their work made its way to the Oculus company afterward. Might be hard to prove, might not. Depends on what's on record, employee contracts, etc.
 

balmorar

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The complaint explains a lot of things we didn't know and has many valid points. Zenimax can win this easily.
 

DalekFlay

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Looks like Carmack did indeed sign one of those ugly employment contracts where the company owns everything he came up with related to the industry they work in:

carmacklegalagreement1.jpg


http://gamasutra.com/view/news/2182...r_understand_Zenimaxs_suit_against_Oculus.php
 

DragoFireheart

all caps, rainbow colors, SOMETHING.
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Well, then it's his fault for being a loser, despite being also a millionaire legend of videogame history...

I see a pattern of "good" game designers being tricked by Djinn magic.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2...-of-trying-to-cash-in-on-usd2bn-facebook-deal
Oculus accuses ZeniMax of trying to cash in on $2bn Facebook deal
Lawsuit heats up.

Oculus VR has filed its defence for the upcoming lawsuit with ZeniMax over the Rift virtual reality headset.

In May id parent company ZeniMax accused former id co-founder John Carmack of stealing VR tech before he left the company to work for Oculus VR full-time. The two parties couldn't settle the dispute amicably and ZeniMax filed a lawsuit against Oculus VR and its founder, Palmer Luckey.

Now, Oculus has hit back, accusing ZeniMax of trying to cash in on Facebook's $2 billion purchase of the company earlier this year.

"ZeniMax's Complaint falsely claims ownership in Oculus VR technology in a transparent attempt to take advantage of the Oculus VR sale to Facebook," defense documents given to Eurogamer by Oculus read.

"By deliberately misstating some facts and omitting others, ZeniMax makes the incredible assertion that it, a video game software publishing company for personal computers and consoles like the Sony PlayStation, invented and developed a virtual reality hardware and software system.

jpg

Oculus VR founder Palmer Luckey.

"The truth is quite different. There is not a line of ZeniMax code or any of its technology in any Oculus VR product. Indeed, ZeniMax had never identified any 'stolen' code or technology in any Oculus VR product, although ZeniMax had the full source code for the Oculus VR software for over a year and a half (having received it directly from Oculus VR well before it was even released publicly), and could have analyzed it online anytime (at developer.oculusvr.com)."

ZeniMax accuses Luckey and company of "illegally misappropriating ZeniMax trade secrets relating to virtual reality technology, and infringing ZeniMax copyrights and trademarks".

The suit also accuses Oculus of "breach of contract, unjust enrichment, and unfair competition against the defendants". It noted that Oculus broke some non-disclosure agreements related to intellectual property that "provided the fundamental technology driving the Oculus Rift since its inception".

"Luckey has held himself out to the public as the visionary developer of virtual reality technology, when in fact the key technology Luckey used to establish Oculus was developed by ZeniMax," the company claimed in a recent announcement about the impending lawsuit.

Oculus countered this by accusing ZeniMax of being opportunistic: "Until the Facebook deal, and the perceived chance for a quick payout, ZeniMax never raised any claim of infringement against Oculus VR, undoubtedly because ZeniMax never has contributed any intellectual property or technology to Oculus VR," it said.

"The Oculus Rift was conceived by a gifted teenage inventor, Palmer Luckey. Luckey pioneered major advancements in virtual reality technology. He then decided to turn those advancements into something other people could use in the form of the Rift - the world's leading, head-mounted, virtual reality headset. Luckey created many working virtual reality (VR) head-mounted displays (HMDs), incorporated a number of different motion sensors into those HMDs, shared his work publicly, and displayed those HMDs live on numerous occasions - all before having any interaction or communication with ZeniMax."

jpg

Did John Carmack steal tech from ZeniMax?

Interestingly, the document reveals that before Luckey was about to launch the Oculus Rift Kickstarter campaign, ZeniMax suggested he delay the campaign because ZeniMax was interested in funding Oculus VR's work.

But Oculus VR declined to delay the Kickstarter campaign, and it went on to smash its goal.

"While ZeniMax professed interest in funding future Oculus VR work, it did not raise any claim of infringement against Oculus VR," the document reads.

It also reveals that in December 2012 Oculus sent ZeniMax a preview of its source code for developer tools and other software, but ZeniMax failed to make a claim on the code or say the technology was based on Carmack's work.

"Indeed, despite having the code to review for a year and a half, ZeniMax made no claim to it until after Facebook announced its acquisition of Oculus VR," Oculus said.

Meanwhile, Oculus says it offered ZeniMax multiple opportunities to invest in the company.

"Ultimately, instead of investing in the company, ZeniMax demanded an outsized and non-dilutable stake in Oculus VR in supposed exchange for the publicity Carmack's demonstrations and endorsement had generated.

"When Oculus VR declined, ZeniMax requested no compensation for any technological contributions, nor did it pursue its own virtual reality technology. Instead, it told Carmack to shut down all of his virtual reality research, and told others inside ZeniMax not to work on VR video game support. Carmack followed ZeniMax's instruction and, later, with ZeniMax's permission, published much of his virtual reality work to the world in an online white paper."
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
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So, it's becoming a tit for tat bullshit type of case, at least as far as the media is concerned. No big surprise there.
The spindoctors on both sides will be in full fuck you mode at least until this thing goes to trial. Most likely, Zenimax will try to get Oculus to settle.
 

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