Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Carmack accused of stealing Zenimax's tech for Oculus VR

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
But... but... what about Kevin Cloud!?!?
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
Where are you getting this

Carmack wasn't the CEO/GM of id. That was Hollenshead.
He's listed as the "Chief Technical Officer" for Doom 3 and Rage. Sounds like an executive position to me.

It is and it isn't.

What it does mean is that he lead the tech departmemt. Nothing less and nothing more. That doesn't mean he gave up coding.

By the same dumb logic Chris Avellone is also just an executive.
 

tuluse

Arcane
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
11,400
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
It is and it isn't.

What it does mean is that he lead the tech departmemt. Nothing less and nothing more. That doesn't mean he gave up coding.

By the same dumb logic Chris Avellone is also just an executive.
Tell me the last game Avellone was the lead narrative designer for. He pretty much is just an executive these days too.
 

Duraframe300

Arcane
Joined
Dec 21, 2010
Messages
6,395
It is and it isn't.

What it does mean is that he lead the tech departmemt. Nothing less and nothing more. That doesn't mean he gave up coding.

By the same dumb logic Chris Avellone is also just an executive.
Tell me the last game Avellone was the lead narrative designer for. He pretty much is just an executive these days too.

Lonesome Road in 2011. And he has written for multiple games since. Actually tackeling writing on more projects than he did before. That he didn't take on a full Lead position has multiple reasons. Several devs at Obsidian don't always take Lead even though they have before. Ohmygosh, Tim Cain isn't leading projects. Sure means hes a full time executive.

Apart from constantly writing up the creative side of pitches for publishers.

Not a fucking argument.

So, you are talking complete bullshit.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,300
Location
Jersey for now
I'd buy that Zenimax is in the right in this one.
Carmack just sometimes comes across as douchey.
Not sure if it's arrogance or what. Can't remember, been a while since I read his interviews.
But he definitely appeared at times a bit full of himself, I remember that much.
Maybe I'm misremembering, but I don't think so.
He might have had the arrogance to say that he did what he did and kept the work, whether it was on Zenimax's time or his own.
I can definitely buy him doing that and thinking he'd get away with it.
He might not have, but in my opinion, the odds aren't in his favor.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,164
What i took from Carmack is that i think he believes gaming is below his dignity.
 

J1M

Arcane
Joined
May 14, 2008
Messages
14,616
Zenimax say they have a written confession that some of the code written under their watch was being used. I imagine Carmack is going to have to refute that written statement somehow. The burden of casting doubt on Zenimax's evidence is on him.
Carmack: I wrote that on my time off.
Judge: Does Zenimax has proof that Carmack was working on this during time paid for by Bethesda?

Does it really work that way? If a lawyer works at a large law firm then he doesn't really have 'off hours.' That is, he can't take on his own clients in his spare time. Obviously programming is a little different but it depends on how his contract is worded. I can easily see it including all programming work created by an individual during the length of the contract.
Generally speaking, if you want to do work in your own time related to the field you are employed in you request it in writing and receive a letter from the company's legal department before you start.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Which I'm guessing he probably didn't do and/or wasn't written into his employment contract.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,300
Location
Jersey for now
Well, assumptions make an ass out of both you and me, so I'd say he probably assumed.
Or, maybe he knew and decided to try and do it on the down low anyway.

For whatever reason, I just see Carmack as having known exactly what he was doing, exactly what his contract stipulated, etc.
He just cuts a devious figure to me.
Honestly it doesn't bother me, it comes out to an interesting fight we watch between two gigantic douches.
But like I said, Carmack just comes off as the more likely to be guilty of what Zenimax claims. To me anyway.
Part of me says he's too smart not to know what's in his contract, and part of me says he's arrogant enough to try and gloss over it/try and cheat his former employers.
 

Ranselknulf

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
1,879,485
Location
Best America
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Well, Carmack could have been working with Zenimax the entire time with every intention of ass raping Oculus when the opportunity presented itself.

I wonder what Carmack's portfolio looks like.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,300
Location
Jersey for now
He might have, but then decided to pull his own double cross against the original double cross.
Like a crappy film noir twist on a predictable femme fatale betrayal.
 

DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
5,958
So Zenimax tell Carmack not to pursue VR stuff while he's working for them so he leaves the company and manages to come up with something that nets his startup a $2billion payday and now all of a sudden VR are all protective of "their" IP developed when Carmack was an employee?

I guess they're hoping for a slice of that sweet, sweet pie but unless Carmack was dumb enough to do a bunch of VR related work in the office on his workstation there at best they're hoping for a quick settlement.
 

Ranselknulf

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 28, 2012
Messages
1,879,485
Location
Best America
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Make the Codex Great Again! Grab the Codex by the pussy Insert Title Here RPG Wokedex Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
He might have, but then decided to pull his own double cross against the original double cross.
Like a crappy film noir twist on a predictable femme fatale betrayal.

Well, regardless of if Carmack did a double betrayal, Zenimax would still have their foot in the door because of Carmacks employment with Zenimax.

Heck, Carmack might not have even known he was being used as a pawn to get Zenimax a slice of the Oculus pie. A few words of encouragement from Zenimax exec's and some undocumented assurances that it wasn't against his contract and Carmack rides off to get Zenimax some money.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,300
Location
Jersey for now
I don't think he was dumb enough to do it at a workstation per se. But, anything he developed might be theirs by default because he was employed by Zenimax while he was working on stuff.
It boils down to a couple of things with this type of legal proceeding and situation:
The type of code used. If they use anything that is owned by Zenimax, or is exactly a ripoff, or is close enough that a judge considers it a ripoff via advisement by experts in the field, Zenimax gets a payday.
Zenimax doesn't necessarily have to prove that he did work on VR while employed by them. They can show enough circumstantial crap that it looks like he did, or that he was in the earliest stages of development while still employed. If that's the case, the judge might rule that the foundation belongs to Zenimax and they're obligated to pay the litigious jews.
This isn't criminal court. They don't need to impress 12 people with DNA and forensics.
They just need to impress upon a judge that there is enough evidence to show their side and a legal precedent for this type of thing exists. US judges are big on precedents. That's a good chunk of US law right there, researching previous cases and rulings on them. Judges are more likely to go with previous rulings if the cases are similar enough.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,300
Location
Jersey for now
He might have, but then decided to pull his own double cross against the original double cross.
Like a crappy film noir twist on a predictable femme fatale betrayal.

Well, regardless of if Carmack did a double betrayal, Zenimax would still have their foot in the door because of Carmacks employment with Zenimax.

Heck, Carmack might not have even known he was being used as a pawn to get Zenimax a slice of the Oculus pie. A few words of encouragement from Zenimax exec's and some undocumented assurances that it wasn't against his contract and Carmack rides off to get Zenimax some money.

Eh, people at that executive level deal with office politics all the time at that point. It's pretty much sink or swim when dealing with it truth be told. You learn what everybody wants real quick, because as a director, executive, officer, etc, that's a big part of your job. Even with Carmack, he had to have been exposed to those office politics enough that if he wasn't given the go ahead directly, someone whispered into his ear what was going on. Even douches like Carmack can have friends in places.
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
I doubt Zenimax would start a legal 'to-do' about it if there wasn't some grain of truth. Lawyers bill by the hour.
 

Major_Blackhart

Codexia Lord Sodom
Patron
Joined
Dec 5, 2002
Messages
18,300
Location
Jersey for now
I doubt Zenimax would start a legal 'to-do' about it if there wasn't some grain of truth. Lawyers bill by the hour.

You'd be surprised. Lawyers might bill by the hour, but company lawyers are often salaried, and I guarantee you that until this goes to court, that's what they're using, salaried lawyers.

There might not be any truth at all to this, but Zenimax might not think that. They might legitimately believe they were fucked over and not just trying to fuck someone over for no good reason. That's why it's gonna be up to a judge to decide.
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
Patron
Joined
Jan 27, 2010
Messages
15,048
Location
In quarantine
Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Zenimax cancelled VR version of Doom 3 BFG because Oculus wouldn't give them equity

http://theverge.com/2014/5/5/5682892/oculus-responds-to-zenimax-intellectual-property-accusations

After being threatened with legal action by id Software parent company ZeniMax, virtual reality frontrunner Oculus says it hasn't taken so much as a line of code from the company. Last week, ZeniMax said that the Oculus Rift VR headset couldn't have existed without help from John Carmack, who it accuses of giving Oculus intellectual property developed at and owned by ZeniMax. Carmack, who co-founded id but left to work at Oculus last year, was an early supporter of Oculus, and Oculus has previously acknowledged his support. But it says that ZeniMax played no part in the process and actually impeded VR development.

"There is not a line of ZeniMax code or any of its technology in any Oculus products," says Oculus in a statement, and Carmack "did not take any intellectual property from ZeniMax." Instead, the company accuses ZeniMax of making misleading and vague claims. ZeniMax has cited a non-disclosure agreement that Oculus founder Palmer Luckey signed in 2012, in which it bars Luckey from using or claiming ownership of unspecified VR software. According to Oculus, ZeniMax "has misstated the purposes and language" of the document and has "never identified any ‘stolen' code or technology" in the company's publicly available source code.

The company also refutes allegations that ZeniMax had attempted to get compensation for stolen intellectual property well before Facebook bought Oculus for $2 billion last month. "Zenimax did not pursue claims against Oculus for IP or technology," it says, "and only after the Facebook deal was announced has Zenimax now made these claims through its lawyers." It also points out that Carmack has previously said he left id because ZeniMax wasn't interested in VR development.

One of the most interesting claims, though, is that a financial spat with ZeniMax is the reason that Doom 3 BFG never ended up supporting VR. Doom 3 was one of the first games tested with the Rift, and it was supposed to be one of the very first games released for it — every development kit, in fact, was supposed to come with a copy. That plan was later scrapped. ZeniMax claims that it previously attempted to settle with Oculus over intellectual property, asking for equity in the company. Though Oculus maintains that there were no intellectual property disputes involved, it confirms that some kind of negotiation happened, saying that ZeniMax canceled VR support for Doom 3 when Oculus refused to grant it equity. Since the legal threat was made public, Oculus has characterized ZeniMax's claims as the standard fee-chasing that companies see during an acquisition. "We are disappointed but not surprised by ZeniMax's actions and we will prove that all of its claims are false," it says.​
 

Abelian

Somebody's Alt
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
2,289
One of the most interesting claims, though, is that a financial spat with ZeniMax is the reason that Doom 3 BFG never ended up supporting VR. Doom 3 was one of the first games tested with the Rift, and it was supposed to be one of the very first games released for it — every development kit, in fact, was supposed to come with a copy.​
Oh, yeah, I'm sure players would have appreciated getting ambushed by monsters in dark rooms right in their face. :roll:
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
Why not Wolf3d?
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom