Butthurt gamer blog

[deuxhero]

Blog of an obsessed LIBRUL who is watching the Torment forum: jakejesson.blogspot.com

Holy crap this is hilarious.

One day, idiot libruls will learn the difference between actual homophobes (most Codexians aren't, in my experience) and people who simply don't wish for their favorite computer games to be used as delivery systems for in-your-face "raising awareness" propaganda. I don't want overt heterosexual romance in Torment, either. Generally speaking, I shouldn't even know what the characters' sexual orientations are, nor care to know.

Folsom Street Fair? No problem. I'd attend, though not as a "participant". Gay men or women kissing? Don't care. Gay marriage? Of course. Equal rights? Absolutely. Prosecution for homophobic hate crimes? Sure. I know it's cliche and a bit of a cop-out to say so, but I have numerous gay friends, and have always simply treated them like people... not to mention my bisexual sister.

Just kidding—libruls won't learn. Anyone who doesn't want exaggerated gay sex rubbed right in their faces to prove how HOLY SHIT TOLERANT we all are must be a homophobe.

Hell, I love having actual lesbian main character in games (and not for sexual reasons. I just find it charming for some reason) and would love to see more (I can only think of less than 10 released in English, all but 1 a jRPG), but hate with a Passion "gayxploitation" (blackxplotation except well...) and player sexual characters (they aren't gay, they are just interested in the player regardless of sex, generally with no changes to the "romance" beyond some pronouns). I'd have no problem playing a game with a homosexual male as the main character as long as it was handled well and the game was good.

It doesn't help that Bioware insists on making all romance options subordinates and students, which is REALLY creepy regardless of sexuality in (supposedly) serious works, for it carries a strong notion that if you don't fuck your CO, they can just make a Uriah out of you (Actually romance in general is pretty badly placed in "serious" works, but that's another story.).

 

[AngryEddy]

I'm not scared of fags, you dirtball. I just don't like faggots ruining the art of storytelling, but I wouldn't like heterosexual liberals forcing their bullshit on me anymore than you, so stop trying to be a special victim, you passive aggressive douche. Like I said before, I think the way Witcher 2 and Game of Thrones handled homosexuality was fine, but I won't accept your "I'm gay, just without all of the emotional baggage, + i'm to be accepted by EVERYONE in the lore + i'm to be empowered and stronger emotionally than the main characters + I need to be over represented" bullshit.

You have poor reading comprehension

No man, that first sentence says it all, you think im an unreasonable homophobe, and that is that. All of that other shit about me being just a negative guy that you don't understand what little category I fall in to, is just one of those sneaky little bitch moves, that removes the negative connotation of you directly calling me an asshole. Now if there were gays in videogames, there should be one character that is representative of you: passive aggressive, and just an undermining cunt that screams homophobe at everyone who disagrees with him. Seriously, you guys have Renly Baratheon, what more do you fucking want? Here is a gay king who came off as just a regular, handsome, cocksucker, and died a noble victim who was not only loved by the peasantry, but the audience as well. It aint gonna get better than that.

 

[Blaine]

When they're depicted as positive.

That's a fair point, for a change. Still, this too is something very open to interpretation and abuse by those with liberal agendas, so who ought to decide whether or not the depiction is "positive"? Certainly not you or you idol, at least not in my opinion, as you're incredibly biased and constantly searching for confirmation of some besmirchment of the liberal agenda.

 

[thedeadlymoose]

It doesn't help that Bioware insists on making all romance options subordinates and students, which is REALLY creepy regardless of sexuality in (supposedly) serious works, for it carries a strong notion that if you don't fuck your CO, they can just make a Uriah out of you

This is another good point that I left out of my wall of text. This is another reason that Bioware romances have issues.

No man, that first sentence says it all, you think im an unreasonable homophobe, and that is that. All of that other shit about me being just a negative guy that you don't understand what little category I fall in to, is just one of those sneaky little bitch moves, that removes the negative connotation of you directly calling me an asshole. Now if there were gays in videogames, there should be one character that is representative of you: passive aggressive, and just an undermining cunt that screams homophobe at everyone who disagrees with him.

No, I think you're a raging shitmonster and for my evidence, I have your raging-shitmonster post. The fact that you come off homophobic just helps. I would have been actually pissed if you'd agreed with me and still been a raging shitmonster. That would seriously undercut my argument by association.

(that last part was bullshit, no one cares about being a raging shitmonster on RPGCodex, but it would still undercut my argument if any outside person were to read this IN THEORY)

Most of the people in this thread disagree with me in either big or small ways, and yet, you're the only one I called out as thinking they were homophobic. (Or one of like two people. I have a bad memory.) That's an awful big ego on your table there. Or maybe it's just more reading comprehension.

As for the rest, you seem to be upset that I did not devote more text to specifying how noble you might or might not be. Either way, I invite you to cry me the Amazon river. You might be a perfectly fine human being, but your posts in this thread tell me that you're a raging moron [and I'm sure you feel 100% the same about me].

Are you asking me to operate in good faith and not say mean things about you that might be exaggerated [which is what I just did]? Then why don't you go first?

Seriously, you guys have Renly Baratheon, what more do you fucking want? Here is a gay king who came off as just a regular, handsome, cocksucker, and died a noble victim who was not only loved by the peasantry, but the audience as well. It aint gonna get better than that.

Let me just go back a page to look at my wall of text. Oh right. I said that I liked how GRRM handled queer people. Turns out Renly is one of those people. And yeah, I think he was damn awesome. This is what I meant by "poor reading comprehension".

Still, this too is something very open to interpretation and abuse by those with liberal agendas, so who ought to decide whether or not the depiction is "positive"?

You weren't asking me, but I'll answer anyway. I think it should be debated. You're right that it's open to interpretation and abuse by those who share my opinions and/or Roguey's opinions. But it's also open to interpretation and abuse by those who share opposing opinions. And those opposing opinions are not magically more valid.

That's why I devote walls of text to this on the Internet, and that's why I made the suggestion to the devs: if I feel it's important, and if I want to win over mainstream culture [or anyone really, not like RPG Codex is really mainstream culture], arguing the case is what I should be doing. Otherwise I may as well stick to only talking to people who agree with me.

That isn't to say I feel everyone sharing my position is obligated to argue these points, or that they agree with my arguments. Just speaking for myself here.

 

[Cromwell]

If a character is gay, which in withcer didnt matter, and also evil to call this not proper because it depicts gay as negative, how proper is someone who automaticly draws a connection between gay and evil? As far as I've seen the mage was an ass, he was also gay. It never came to my mind to connect the two.

Someone who automatically says "see faggots are all ugly evil idiots" doesnt change his ways because a gay character is despicted as hero, someone who already has no problem with gay people doesnt draw a connection between evil and gay, so where the fuck is now the problem in a character who is gay and evil? Do we forbid gay people now to be assholes because that would shed a negative light on the purpose?

And yes, I really dont understand the logic here, Im not trying to troll someone.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

thedeadlymoose, I see you still do not understand, not truly.

That's fine though, the Codex is a strange place, and it's easy to fall to the temptation of taking things at face value. To use your own example, practically nobody is paranoid about Fargo fleecing us out of our money with his 2D stretch goals. We simply see it as the clever PR move it is, and if you think nobody as InXile's side is trying to calculate which stretch goals result in the maximum amount of money pledged, then you are naive. It's simply common sense to do so. That Codexers express this sentiment as "Fargo is such a fucking money grubbing jew with his bullshit stretch goals" is simply an aesthetic preference; nearly everything around here is expressed like that. Of course, there probably is someone who actually believes that, but that's what happens when you don't ban crazy people for being crazy. It's also why this place is so fun.

For the record, I didn't bring up Jaesun as a "oh-ho, here's our own licensed faggot who disagrees with your agenda!" gotcha, but as a small bit of proof that this place isn't really, as SA likes to put it, "grognard stormfront". Well, the grognard part is more or less true, but we're much more diverse in other aspects.

Oh, and if you want to call AngryEddy a dumbfuck with reading comprehension skills below those of a typical 5-year-old, then feel free to do so. No need to be faux-courteous and passive-aggressive. You'll see that, paradoxically, being able to say whatever you want however you want it makes for a healthier field for debate.

 

[thedeadlymoose]

Cromwell: There's this thing called the "mere exposure" effect. Mere exposure to something makes you like it more. Part of human nature.

So... You'd seriously be surprised at how many hard-core anti-gay people MIGHT eventually soften based on positive queer portrayals. Not very many, but still some. And more importantly, this can make a big difference for the people who are iffy about queer people but not really hateful - a category comprising shitloads of people.

And you'd also be surprised at how many of those 'iffy' people will see enough of these 'evil gay' portrayals, and without any other balancing portrayal, dip down the seesaw further and further into the actively anti-gay realm. That's how stereotypes happen, right?

In a very loose sense, this could qualify as an 'agenda', but I have yet to see any convincing argument as to why it's a bad thing if not taken too far (and I have yet to see any convincing argument that says I've taken it too far).

Recall I didn't use this as a justification for queer inclusion all by itself; it's just a reason why I care about this element of good/bad writing and less so about others.

(You could certainly make an argument that, based on these principle, I'm not helping by shitting hard on AngryEddie, and you'd be right. But no one's perfect. )

I don't want to get too much into the Witcher debate, though. It sounds like it's got issues but I'm not familiar enough with it (I played some, enjoyed it, haven't finished, haven't played the second one at all).

But let's say that he's the only person who got a sexual punishment in the entire game, and he's also the only gay male character, and he's an ugly jackass. Then yeah. That's period-accurate, certainly, but it's kind of a shitty thing to write. Though it wouldn't make me want to eradicate the game from existence, just raise the issue and hope it's better the next go-round. And still play the game, because hell, it's otherwise good.

EDIT: To be specific, there's nothing wrong with having all those things happen to a gay character, including being the only one to be sexually punished - recall the king who got killed by a red-hot poker up his ass for being gay - but it's "shitty" if not "unrealistic" if it's the ONLY portrayal of a male gay character in your entire universe. That makes it seem like the author is trying to make it point, even if the author genuinely is not trying to make a point and just didn't think it through. (I'd lean towards assuming the latter, FYI.)

[FYI no need to clarify that you're not trolling if you want to ask me more crap, I'm assuming that if someone asks me a question, they're not trolling me unless I have special reason to assume otherwise]

EDIT:

Cowboy Moment: Okay, yes, it does look like I'm misunderstanding, then, and my apologies for that. I suppose I should have lurked even more.

(I did understand what you meant with the Jaesun thing, though, and I didn't think ALL or even most Codexians thought that inExile was operating in bad faith... but I did think a significant minority did, prior to your explanation.)

No need to be faux-courteous and passive-aggressive. You'll see that, paradoxically, being able to say whatever you want however you want it makes for a healthier field for debate.

I see you mean this honestly. I didn't think I was being passive-aggressive, just incredibly sarcastic and deliberately assholish. If those things are seen as synonyms here, and frowned upon, then sure, I can try to lighten up on the sarcasm-slash-passive aggression. :p

 

[Lorica]

Cromwell: There's this thing called the "mere exposure" effect. Mere exposure to something makes you like it more. Part of human nature.

So... You'd seriously be surprised at how many hard-core anti-gay people MIGHT eventually soften based on positive queer portrayals. Not very many, but still some. And more importantly, this can make a big difference for the people who are iffy about queer people but not really hateful - a category comprising shitloads of people.

And you'd also be surprised at how many of those 'iffy' people will see enough of these 'evil gay' portrayals, and without any other balancing portrayal, dip down the seesaw further and further into the actively anti-gay realm. That's how stereotypes happen, right?

In a very loose sense, this could qualify as an 'agenda', but I have yet to see any convincing argument as to why it's a bad thing if not taken too far (and I have yet to see any convincing argument that says I've taken it too far).

You mean, "cater to the fucking retarded." In video games.

There's already so much of it.

It's called decline, in the local cant.

You might find that the merest wiff provokes apoplexy...

 

[Cromwell]

But let's say that he's the only person who got a sexual punishment in the entire game, and he's also the only gay male character, and he's an ugly jackass. Then yeah. That's period-accurate, certainly, but it's kind of a shitty thing to write. Though it wouldn't make me want to eradicate the game from existence, just raise the issue and hope it's better the next go-round. And still play the game, because hell, it's otherwise good.

This was more for roguey since she started it. But im ok with the explanation so far, I dont agree fully but thats ok. There where at least two male gay characters, him and the one he snacked, although it wasnt clear if the second one was gay and just didnt like the mage or he was just forced to be his slave. Sexual punishment was also dished to another character which got raped, but that happened off screen. I didnt think he was way uglier then the rest of the bunch.

If I see something in Games or movies, I always assume if there are gays then there are shy gays and asshole gays and prud gays, and gay heroes, etc pp, I assume they are there I just dont see them. If there was only one gay character in a Game and he is a hero I would assume there have to be gay assholes, else the hero would be the only gay person in the world and that would be sily. Furthermore if I have a Setting where people Fuck I automaticly assume thexy fuck all kind of things from other humans or human races to flying spaceships. It never occurs to me that, In an universe where people like to fuck, they only like to fuck the other gender prefarably with the same colour as themselves. So this whole representation thing is a nonissue for me, I always assume they are there, Just in that particular case not in the scene or relevant to the plot. So yes, I still ahve problems to get it.

 

[tuluse]

No need to be faux-courteous and passive-aggressive. You'll see that, paradoxically, being able to say whatever you want however you want it makes for a healthier field for debate.

I see you mean this honestly. I didn't think I was being passive-aggressive, just incredibly sarcastic and deliberately assholish. If those things are seen as synonyms here, and frowned upon, then sure, I can try to lighten up on the sarcasm-slash-passive aggression. :p

We prefer things blunt around here. We'd rather be stabbed in the face than the back. We don't care about the open casket funeral, but we want to see who came at us, and what weapon they used, and what they rolled on their to-hit die.

 

[deuxhero]

I got to wonder if any of these people have even heard of GrimGrimoire, Atelier Totori or Swordcraft Story...

 

[thedeadlymoose]

Lorica: You forgot to copy the part of my post where I specified that I didn't use this as a justification, IE, "devs please include queer people because idiots might get the wrong idea otherwise"

Because that, by itself, wouldn't be enough justification. I mean, gingers could make the same argument, as my straight red-haired younger brother in high school is happy to remind me. And literally any minority group getting shat on could make the same argument, including, say, the KKK. Or as one spectacular fellow (sorry, Cowboy) frothing jackass on the Torment uservoice boards pointed out: Pedophiles.

(I thought he was trolling us at first but I slowly began to realize that he wasn't kidding. He meant it. Got really offended when I called 'sex with a consenting 8 year old' child rape.)

That's why I made a whole bunch of other arguments (see: other walls of text) which I feel objectively hold more water.

I dont agree fully but thats ok.

You only disagree because you are a homophobe.

(I am kidding)

If I see something in Games or movies, I always assume if there are gays then there are shy gays and asshole gays and prud gays, and gay heroes, etc pp, I assume they are there I just dont see them.

Well, I see absolutely zero objections to this. The only thing is that I really don't think most people work like this, and my evidence is that the gay characters who usually show up are disproportionately terrible in comparison to straight characters. And gay heroes are seen as political unless they die horribly or turn evil.

But again, can see why you could assume otherwise.

Also, side note: minority villains can sometimes be the best. I can't think of a good queer example offhand, but if I can be silly and mention X-Men - Magneto is a fantastic character, conceptually speaking. It's very clear he isn't evil because he's Jewish, and in fact, his history adds a level of depth which is unusual to say the least for a comicbook character. (I love comics but it's true, sorry >_>)

tuluse: Fair 'nuff. Will try and keep in mind while I continue to post.

EDIT:

I got to wonder if any of these people have even heard of GrimGrimoire, Atelier Totori or Swordcraft Story...

I have not, but the fact the most people haven't [most people U.S. population-wise] still supports my points.

(Googling these, though. Because I don't have enough of a backlog already.)

 

[Lorica]

I quoted exactly what I meant to. You care a lot about poor writing in a particular area. The reason you give is that it might mess with retards' heads. But it seems like the "might mess with retards' heads" criticism is enough to make for poor writing in your opinion. I'd contend that shitty writing 1) can often be the result of trying not to confuse the idiots and 2) can attempt to avoid the exposure effect but still lead to it--shittily written heroes can be worse than well written villains when it comes to representation.

 

[deuxhero]

Swordcraft Story was a trilogy (only the first two were ever released in English, grumblegrumble) of harem comedies where (female) apprentice swordsmiths are thrust into standard jRPG plots (there's an option for a male protaganist, but most of the love interests aren't interested in him. He doesn't even get replacements, and the devs apparently had the girl as the original design choice and canon). The gameplay is actually pretty good aside from the lesbian cast.

Atelier Totori is about a young girl trying to prove her long missing mother is alive. She also happens to be a lesbian (this isn't made explicit till she's part of the supporting case of Atelier Meruru and a friend confesses her feelings to her, but it's not retconny in the slightest). Gameplay is also pretty good

GrimGrimoire is about at a magic school caught in a time loop trying to prevent a ghost mage and devil from killing everyone. She eventually gets into a relationship with a (female) angel that has amnesia from being stuffed in a homunculus body. Sadly the gameplay isn't very good here, though the story is brilliant.

(also: For bonus points, there's Saga Frontier, where one of the storylines stars Asellus, the first explicitly gay protagonist I'm aware. Unfortunately the game was VERY rushed and next to Fuse, who has his story cut entirely, she was one of the hardest hit by cuts)

 

[thedeadlymoose]

But it seems like the "might mess with retards' heads" criticism is enough to make for poor writing in your opinion.

It's not. I'm honestly not sure how to explain this without just repeating myself a zillion times.

It's true that I think it's a contrivance and breaks my suspension of disbelief to only have one gay dude and make him the villain. That's poor writing - it's the author pushing cultural biases (usually by accident, or unintentionally, which does not make it better), but it's not poor writing specifically because it might mess with the heads of morons. That's just one of the effects. It's true as well if there's only one gay dude and he's a total Marty Stu hero.

Exception I can think of offhand, though based purely on hearsay: the most recent Bond movie, Skyfall, because the villain is said to be highly compelling and the context makes it obvious that him being queer has nothing to do with him being evil. If true, just more proof that you can make anything work by writing it well enough. [Movie is on my backlog so I can't speak to it for certain.]

EDIT: I totally ignored the second half of your post by mistake.

I'd contend that shitty writing 1) can often be the result of trying not to confuse the idiots and 2) can attempt to avoid the exposure effect but still lead to it--shittily written heroes can be worse than well written villains when it comes to representation.

Sure, yes, this is true. I'm not sure if I agree that it's worse, but it's still bad. But again, in this instance I have confidence in the Torment devs.

That's why I made the suggestion to them, and not to other writers who I enjoy but have less confidence in.

deuxhero: Thank you for the explanations! At the very least, they sound interesting, though I'm not always 100% on board with JRPG tropes. >_> (Though if the story is good enough...)

 

[deuxhero]

>_>

Emoticons have been dead for half a decade.

 

[thedeadlymoose]

deuxhero: The community I spend most of my time at is centered around this thing the greybeards call "IRC". What is dead may never die.

If you're trying to tell me that you, or you + the community, finds overusing emoticons annoying, then say that. (Resisting urge to punctuate that sentence with an emoticon.)

 

[Jaesun]

The way gay people were portrayed in Obsidian's New Vegas was the better way we have been shown in a video game. That is pretty much my 2 cents on this subject. What BioWare did was horrific.

 

[Diablo169]

I don't think sexual orientation even entered Bioware's mind in their latest works. They just want you to be able to fuck everything that breathes in case the pairing has a fanclub on their forums.

 

[Cowboy Moment]

Just use instead of emoticons.