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Burn the decline! Kill the doritos! Purge the Popamole! What was decline in original Fallouts?

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Lets not call overwatch attacks of opportunity, shit's gonna get confusing.
 

hiver

Guest
no, i meant Aoo`s. specifically.

Overwatch can have its own role, as usual. The kind of reaction i thought about would be a bit more.. chaotic, random. A kind of an instinctive shot from the hip, if you will. And it would work same for the player and enemies.
Something that characters do by themselves, without direct control or commands from the player.

- its just more lively.


- and then you can have a separate overwatch deal, as something you actively use, maybe being a bit more fun, done like this:
I you do end up spoiling the virginal purity of TB and introduce - overwatch - at least make it an active process that has drawbacks involved: spend AP or defence to "concentrate" on one particular enemy and react to their actions.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
An attack of opportunity is when an enemy moves through your area of control, but not when they enter it.

X-Com had what you're asking for, you'd save enough TU for snap shot.
 

hiver

Guest
an attack of opportunity is whatever i (programmers) set it to be.
 
Joined
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The kind of reaction i thought about would be a bit more.. chaotic, random. A kind of an instinctive shot from the hip, if you will. And it would work same for the player and enemies.
Something that characters do by themselves, without direct control or commands from the player.

I'd feel stuff like this would take away the main attraction of using TB in the first place, namely the high degree of control over your character's actions and the amount of planning that you can put into them. If you break up turns for anything I think it should be deliberate (especially when you're talking about random shots from the hip; what if I wanted to save that last bullet for an aimed shot?).
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I'd feel stuff like this would take away the main attraction of using TB in the first place, namely the high degree of control over your character's actions and the amount of planning that you can put into them. If you break up turns for anything I think it should be deliberate (especially when you're talking about random shots from the hip; what if I wanted to save that last bullet for an aimed shot?).
Jim you should play X-Com and JA2. X-Com lets you save action points to shoot on the enemies turn and JA2 lets you use unspent action points to interrupt the enemy turns.
 
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But that's not what hiver's talking about (I think); looks like he means something more in the vein of the AoD attacks when trying to escape out of reach (no way as fuck am I going to use overwatch or aoo anymore :cool: ), where the attack is performed whether you indicate you want to or not. I think that sort of works in melee centered combat, but when it comes down to shooting from the hip with (hopefully) very limited ammo, I don't see the appeal.

edit: also, I've played some JA2 and a lot of X-Com apocalypse in real-time mode, so there D:
 

hiver

Guest
The kind of reaction i thought about would be a bit more.. chaotic, random. A kind of an instinctive shot from the hip, if you will. And it would work same for the player and enemies.
Something that characters do by themselves, without direct control or commands from the player.

I'd feel stuff like this would take away the main attraction of using TB in the first place, namely the high degree of control over your character's actions and the amount of planning that you can put into them. If you break up turns for anything I think it should be deliberate (especially when you're talking about random shots from the hip; what if I wanted to save that last bullet for an aimed shot?).
No, because it would not replace any other usual mechanic.

It would be an addition. AoD kind of a thing, yes. It didnt take away anything there.

You want to have an overwatch too - fine. Thats a specific command you issue and that has regular effect (bar a few misses) and usually and advantage to it.
make it cost Aps, whatever. Add a thing where you can concentrate on one enemy for more AP, if that plays good.

As for last bullet well... fuck it, happens in combat. Dont run out of bullets?
Have a second weapon?

(you dont spend any AP on it - so youre free to do what you want when you get your turn)
 
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As for last bullet well... fuck it, happens in combat. Dont run out of bullets?
Have a second weapon?

But that's why I said it takes away a lot of the attraction of TB, which is (to me) a question of control. If I have two rounds in the chamber and two goons are running towards me with machetes in their hands and rape on their minds I want at the very least the option of trying to shoot them both in the leg and haul ass, and not be forced at random to shoot one goon twice from the hip and get killed by the second one.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Ok, I read through all Hiver's posts again.

I think it would unbalance combat. It gives actions for "free". If it doesn't take APs saved from the previous turn or remove them from the next one. That would mean that APs are only spent for offensive actions and make defensive actions more valuable.

I don't see how it's better than X-Com's save enough AP to shoot and as soon as the character seems movement, shoot at it, or JA2's full interrupt.
 

hiver

Guest
As for last bullet well... fuck it, happens in combat. Dont run out of bullets?
Have a second weapon?

But that's why I said it takes away a lot of the attraction of TB, which is (to me) a question of control. If I have two rounds in the chamber and two goons are running towards me with machetes in their hands and rape on their minds I want at the very least the option of trying to shoot them both in the leg and haul ass, and not be forced at random to shoot one goon twice from the hip and get killed by the second one.


It would not work in cases where two goons are running at you.
It would work when you or the enemy is using "peek around the corner and shoot" tactic.
Only.

Feel free to invent something more appropriate for goons running at you.

Even so, it doesnt really take away attraction of control of TB, since TB is made out of player direct control-input sections and defense sections where its enemy turn and your character defends in different ways, based on various stats.
Besides, you make it look much worse in that example then it can be. In AoD you can also get an extra attack and spend the last arrow or a bolt - theoretically... so what? Has anyone ever complained about it? Ive never seen anyone even mention it.
 
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It would not work in cases where two goons are running at you.
It would work when you or the enemy is using "peek around the corner and shoot" tactic.
Only.

Leaving aside the question whether you even could implement it in such a limited way (you're basically talking about reading intentions: enemies appearing around the corner could simply be running towards you, two goon example style, and not be preparing to shoot and return behind cover; unless you wanted to have the attack occur at the very last moment, after they'd shot and were preparing to return, but that'd make very little sense), I don't see the appeal of limiting a mechanic to a single exploit in such an arbitrary way. Either have it apply universally, so the player knows what to expect and how to adapt, or don't do it at all I'd say.

TB is made out of player direct control-input sections and defense sections where its enemy turn and your character defends in different ways, based on various stats.

But what's the point in taking the approach to defense out of the player's hands? I don't see what'd be lost for AoD, for instance, if you'd be able to choose beforehand whether to block or dodge an enemy's attacks, or whether to attempt a counter attack (with associated penalties).
 

hiver

Guest
Nobody is saying you cannot implement such reactive shots or moves (diving for cover maybe) in other sphere of gameplay. Yes, the game would need to be able to recognize the "corners tactic" somehow.
but we were discussing that specifically.

- nobody is taking anything out of your hands. youre just getting an extra ability that otherwise - you dont have. -

in AoDs case, my character ability to defend himself with those specific reactive moves - based on his skills - which IS what i affect and prepare and have a choice on, would be lost. And with it a good sense of more lively, organic feel of the combat execution - and some delayed consequences of my decisions on how to build a character. (it could be a perk of a kind)
You might want to have every single move under your direct active command and control in a TB game but honestly i dont see the meaning to it.


As i said repeatedly, having a mechanic of this kind does not mean you couldnt have other uses for it or other specific things like different kinds of overwatch, etc.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Attacks of opportunity, interrupts, cover system? This is getting too far. Why not switch to JA2 engine then? Fallout is totally not suited for this kind of simulation, while JA2 (especially 1.13) has all the pieces already in place. Minor actions consume APs, there are interrupts, armor penetration and damage to armor, stamina, solid injury & recovery system, hunger and thirst, morale, overheating guns, suppression fire... No need to reinvent the wheel.

I don't think people fell in love with Fallout thanks to accurate representation of combat situations. Actually there is something badass about two guys standing there and shooting each other instead of taking cover, interrupting turns...

And think of the resulting feature creep! If every single inconsistency with "realism" is popamole that needs to be fixed, the mod will surely never see the light of day.

About discouraging the peeking around corners, what about giving a hit % penalty for shooting from different tile than you started your turn on?
You could still do it, but you couldn't get much of an edge against dangerous opponents.
 
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I don't think people fell in love with Fallout thanks to accurate representation of combat situations. Actually there is something badass about two guys standing there and shooting each other instead of taking cover, interrupting turns...

But I do think people having replayed the FO's a couple of times would like more combat options. Especially given that this mod, if it ever sees the light of day, won't have the beautiful sprite gore of the FO's, the badassedness of two guys shooting at each other would get pretty repetitive.

About discouraging the peeking around corners, what about giving a hit % penalty for shooting from different tile than you started your turn on?
You could still do it, but you couldn't get much of an edge against dangerous opponents.

Problem with that is that you might end up discouraging movement for ranged characters even more than in the original games (if you do think they should do more than just stand around and shoot each other that is).
 

hiver

Guest
People should really stop fucking mentioning JA2 just because someone mentioned a single fucking mechanic!
Im really, really fed up with that shit.
You cant goddamn improve a single fucking DETAIL without someone coming in and screaming - accusing you of trying to make a whole FUCKING JA2 game.


Interrupt and different AoOs bring a great flavor to TB, they make it more organic, more lively and MORE INTERESTING in terms of actual GAMEPLAY - for a little cost. And they are all governed by character skills, which is one of the general strengths of TB systems.
 
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Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Combat is the last aspect that needs fleshing out, which is the case for most RPGs.

There is one important concern with any big change to the gameplay. The mod will lose a part of its target audience who will get outraged by that one particular change. I expect most deeper changes to meet resistance, unless backed up with Van Buren docs which are sacred too, of course. :)
From this project most people will expect moar classic FO content, with additions that VB was supposed to have.

I'm all for making advanced combat an option, but the default should be close tho what VB should have been.
Let Jim the Dinosaur have his way with the combat for an optional component. I think he is on a good track with his FO2 modifications.
 
Joined
Feb 11, 2007
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2,951
Attacks of opportunity, interrupts, cover system? This is getting too far. Why not switch to JA2 engine then?
Why not indeed?

Ok, I'm just half kidding again. Would be awesome though, especially with all the extra stuff that 1.13 brings that would be perfect for a game in a wasteland setting - damage to equipment, hunger and thirst system, very good injury and recovery mechanics.

Anyway, the game does need some form of interrupt. I'm not a fan of AoD style aoo because they are free of any ap cost. But a simple interrupt on say, enemy spotted, enemy moved into your weapon range, enemy moved into his weapon range - these would be very usefull indeed. One advantage of interrupt system is that maybe sometimes you don't want to just shoot a charging enemy. Maybe what you want is to retreat beyond his reach for this round.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Ok, I'm just half kidding again. Would be awesome though, especially with all the extra stuff that 1.13 brings that would be perfect for a game in a wasteland setting - damage to equipment, hunger and thirst system, very good injury and recovery mechanics.

My thougths exactly!

Anyway, I'd like to see any major changes as an option, just for the sake of continuity with the rest of original "Fallout trilogy" this mod might complete. Except for changes that are mentioned in the design documents.
On the other hand the VB docs definitely do not contain the final game we would have seen, so my insistance on "authenticity" is not that well founded.
 

hiver

Guest
I think a few options that are a natural progression of TB system could be easily added.
Keeping things intentionally on some past progress point - just for the sake of it, seems like bullshit to me.

Especially since Tactics material is available? maybe some mechanics too?

AoD should be great inspiration too.
 

Kaucukovnik

Cipher
Joined
Mar 26, 2009
Messages
488
Show me a single tag-worthy skill outside combat ones. There are some high Science rolls, and Sneak & Outdoorsman are somewhat useful above 100, and that's about it.
And skills with actual gameplay, replayable even? Umm...sneak? That is, until you get caught.
For any combat skill there is a large selection of tools of the trade. Any other skill has pretty much "the tool" and "the improved one", at best.

From my posts you can clearly see that I do enjoy deep tactical combat. But that is not what I seek in a Fallout game. I already knew JA2 when I first played Fallout, yet it managed to drag me in.

What I'd like to see is, for example, being wounded and therefore spending a few in-game days doing non-combat stuff before my char gets better. No game offers enough non-combat content for that, which is why recovery of HPs is always merely a struggle between difficulty and convenience.
I'd like to see direct combat as the last resort (and even clunky one can do that). Improvised traps and ambushes, and luring your targets into them (Speech). Creating poisons, acids and explosives (Doctor, Science). Determining guard routes using Outdoorsman. Extensive use of disguise (adequate armor/outfit + Speech)...

Now what's so wrong with that?
 

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