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Building fantasy cultures underuses scientific knowledge - Discuss

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
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We live in the sad times where rpgs are made for the unwashed capitalistic masses.In the "golden" age of rpgs they were made by smart educated people with imagination (not much but they still had it),and they were made for their pears.Now they are made by unwashed hipster halfbreeds that think Egyptians were niggers and the greatest human accomplishment is social equality(because non of them have lived in socialistic state).Most rpgs and games in general lack any kind of real live logic let alone historically accurate social constructs.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
We live in the sad times where rpgs are made for the unwashed capitalistic masses.In the "golden" age of rpgs they were made by smart educated people with imagination (not much but they still had it),and they were made for their pears.Now they are made by unwashed hipster halfbreeds that think Egyptians were niggers and the greatest human accomplishment is social equality(because non of them have lived in socialistic state).Most rpgs and games in general lack any kind of real live logic let alone historically accurate social constructs.

I agree and it is nice to see someone who sees things in a similar light. What we see is the cultural bubble western "artists" restrict themselves to reflected in a superficial fantasy reflection of their view of our world. Different setting but same old tropes and hates and correctthink.

I love well done historical fiction, especially when it presents a very alien culture with completely different values, norms, and mors. Expedition Vikings and Conquistador did a pretty good job of having the normal response of the time (along with gross anachronisms) but also allowed the modern world view choices. Is that what the developer wanted to do or was it something he had to do?
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,179
Location
Bulgaria
We live in the sad times where rpgs are made for the unwashed capitalistic masses.In the "golden" age of rpgs they were made by smart educated people with imagination (not much but they still had it),and they were made for their pears.Now they are made by unwashed hipster halfbreeds that think Egyptians were niggers and the greatest human accomplishment is social equality(because non of them have lived in socialistic state).Most rpgs and games in general lack any kind of real live logic let alone historically accurate social constructs.

I agree and it is nice to see someone who sees things in a similar light. What we see is the cultural bubble western "artists" restrict themselves to reflected in a superficial fantasy reflection of their view of our world. Different setting but same old tropes and hates and correctthink.

I love well done historical fiction, especially when it presents a very alien culture with completely different values, norms, and mors. Expedition Vikings and Conquistador did a pretty good job of having the normal response of the time (along with gross anachronisms) but also allowed the modern world view choices. Is that what the developer wanted to do or was it something he had to do?
Yeah Expeditions are good rpgs,little bit too libertardian and buggy but still very good games.A good concept for alternative history/historical rpg will be the fall of Constantinople.It will be fun to be able to push back the kebab and retake the empire from the hands of the infidel scum.
 

Iznaliu

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
It is very possible to present mysterious new cultures, as long as you don't dress them up with words the brain cannot read or pronounce. A sin Pillars of Eternity is especially guilty of. When you can't read the arcane name of something, it gets stored in memory as "weird name" and when there's more than one of those they all get jumbled together and the brain stops caring.

There is plenty of time allocated to writing RPGs these days. The primary issue is that too much of it is spent on volume of words, and not enough is spent on quality and brevity.

I think there needs to be more linguistic focus in RPGs, with conlangs etc. True realism can only be achieved by this way; many RPGs are gratingly unrealistic linguistically, which detracts from the world's believability. Ideally, there should be diachronic conlanging, but that is too daunting for many.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,179
Location
Bulgaria
It is very possible to present mysterious new cultures, as long as you don't dress them up with words the brain cannot read or pronounce. A sin Pillars of Eternity is especially guilty of. When you can't read the arcane name of something, it gets stored in memory as "weird name" and when there's more than one of those they all get jumbled together and the brain stops caring.

There is plenty of time allocated to writing RPGs these days. The primary issue is that too much of it is spent on volume of words, and not enough is spent on quality and brevity.

I think there needs to be more linguistic focus in RPGs, with conlangs etc. True realism can only be achieved by this way; many RPGs are gratingly unrealistic linguistically, which detracts from the world's believability. Ideally, there should be diachronic conlanging, but that is too daunting for many.
A true realism could be created only if the creator/writer have real live experience,and asking questions about how some thing will work,and asking them about every thing.Sadly this decade most people's real live experience ends with tweeter and tumblr.
 

YES!

Hi, I'm Roqua
Dumbfuck
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
2,088
It is very possible to present mysterious new cultures, as long as you don't dress them up with words the brain cannot read or pronounce. A sin Pillars of Eternity is especially guilty of. When you can't read the arcane name of something, it gets stored in memory as "weird name" and when there's more than one of those they all get jumbled together and the brain stops caring.

There is plenty of time allocated to writing RPGs these days. The primary issue is that too much of it is spent on volume of words, and not enough is spent on quality and brevity.

I think there needs to be more linguistic focus in RPGs, with conlangs etc. True realism can only be achieved by this way; many RPGs are gratingly unrealistic linguistically, which detracts from the world's believability. Ideally, there should be diachronic conlanging, but that is too daunting for many.
A true realism could be created only if the creator/writer have real live experience,and asking questions about how some thing will work,and asking them about every thing.Sadly this decade most people's real live experience ends with tweeter and tumblr.

The problem with needing actual real life experience to make something accurate is experiences are very limited. I doubt anyone alive has been in a large battle with hand weapons. And if anyone has been involved on either side of a cavalry charge they are most likely living in a society with limited computer access and little knowledge of rpgs.

Also, people experience things differently. I have been in combat, but my experience is nothing like that of storming a beach in WW2. Or being at constant, brutal war for years like in WW1 and 2 for various European countries. My experiences are nothing like Alls Quiet on the Western Front. Modern day combat is usually short lived and for most of the time you are in relative safety without the oppressiveness people living in trenches for years, under constant threat of death almost all the time.

People also react differently in combat. I got tunnel vision which kind of blanket out everyone but me and my target and time was weird. It slowed down but not in a good way. This hurt me as I was supposed to be directing my team or squad, not in my own world oblivious to what was going on around me and outside my tunnel. But that doesn't happen to everyone, but is kind of common. My friend was freaked out the whole time and completely aware of everything and more observant than usually, but too freaked out for it to be a good thing. A lot of people are fine until rounds start flying, I was anxious and couldn't wait for and was relieved when they did. Not because I wanted to shoot at people or be shot at, but because it is better than waiting. I hate waiting.

Remember that Gurkha that killed like 30 attackers on his own within the last decade? His account makes it seem like he was present and aware and completely functional the whole time. I wish I could say I was like that. I'm not a coward but if someone was coming up behind me or on my flank in a fire fight I honestly would never notice it if I was alone and shooting at someone in front of me.

Also keep in mind that even the major battles of this century have been nothing like WW1 and WW2 where more people have died in a minute of some battles than in all the battles of this century. And their battles where nothing like when people used muskets and lined up. Which was nothing like when people used hand weapons. Anyone who has been in a lot of fist fights can probably agree that when you get completely winded you kind of stop caring so much about being punched. Was it the same when instead of a punch you'd get a spear or a sword?

Also, the more accurate rpgs are usually very annoying. I forget the name of the game but there was this one game that aimed to be pretty realistic. Your shield and weapon would break a lot. I ended up usually throwing spears and trying to keep my distance. Trying to fight up close against two people was usually a lose unless you got lucky. You versus three was impossible for the most part. Most of the combat rules and rpg rules led to cheesing battles, and it didn't encompass moral. I think most sane people would run from three armed people trying to kill them. I don't think most people want to play a game where they lose control of their character and run like a baby all the time.


If you think about it any realistic rpg system would be based around not dying instead of winning. I just don't think actual realism is what people want. People complain a lot about all the rariety of hitting in the old DSA system used for the RoA trilogy, and the critical fumbles, and weapons breaking, etc. I'd much rather have a very good and complex and interesting rpg system over a realistic one.

I think for settings sensible is a better aim than realistic. But, how much would people complain if there was no options for the modern day morals? People hated that there wasn't more options to save the orphan kids in the main Viking city. People want to be the hero as they believe heroes would act. If you had a setting where acting as most people day believe a hero would act gets them killed all the time, forcing them to make decisions they morally disagree with and anachronistically inserting into that setting, I think it would get far more complaints than praise.

Its also more noticeable in games that strive for it. When I wasn't allowed to do something I think my character would do in AoD it was way more annoying and noticeable than in Underrail. But AoD strived for options in dialogue where Underrail didn't so my expectations where different.


I, personally, like when a game allows you to do what you think is the right thing but attaches a cost to it. In TToN I kept that little girl in my party even though she sucked because my character wasn't a huge dick throwing little girls to the wild. It certainly hurt my combat performance. In Tuerigard and the Alliance with Rome it had things like setting the your slave free hurting you and the slave. There is also a mod for an overhaul mod of Skyrim that makes it so if you worship one of the good gods you have a limited number of times you can steal or assault people before they rejected you.

In my opinion you should be rewarded for doing what is the norm for the setting while being allowed to act otherwise, but acting anachronistically has a negative price. This also means no good points and bad points as that usually means equal reward and just picking a path and following the side that gives the most reward. Same with a karma system. It has the opposite impact of enhancing roleplaying, and curtails it or hamstrings it.
 
Joined
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Messages
781
Yeah whatever you want I'll agree to almost anything as long as we can get more modern-ish/cyberpunk/sci-fi games

Also Babel fucking sucked
 

AwesomeButton

Proud owner of BG 3: Day of Swen's Tentacle
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It is very possible to present mysterious new cultures, as long as you don't dress them up with words the brain cannot read or pronounce. A sin Pillars of Eternity is especially guilty of. When you can't read the arcane name of something, it gets stored in memory as "weird name" and when there's more than one of those they all get jumbled together and the brain stops caring.

There is plenty of time allocated to writing RPGs these days. The primary issue is that too much of it is spent on volume of words, and not enough is spent on quality and brevity.

I think there needs to be more linguistic focus in RPGs, with conlangs etc. True realism can only be achieved by this way; many RPGs are gratingly unrealistic linguistically, which detracts from the world's believability. Ideally, there should be diachronic conlanging, but that is too daunting for many.
Back when I wasn't so put off by its engine and design principles, what completely put me off the TES games was their silly world building, where regions with completely incompatible climates exist next to each other just so that Tamriel is "varied". But what was worse were its completely moronic attempts at... it's not even a conlang, but misusing words from non-English languages. What's known as "vulgar etymology" - "Tribunal" means a group of three gods (what should be "trinity") for example. I just can't stand shit like that, even if their gameplay wasn't as bad as it was.
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,179
Location
Bulgaria
It is very possible to present mysterious new cultures, as long as you don't dress them up with words the brain cannot read or pronounce. A sin Pillars of Eternity is especially guilty of. When you can't read the arcane name of something, it gets stored in memory as "weird name" and when there's more than one of those they all get jumbled together and the brain stops caring.

There is plenty of time allocated to writing RPGs these days. The primary issue is that too much of it is spent on volume of words, and not enough is spent on quality and brevity.

I think there needs to be more linguistic focus in RPGs, with conlangs etc. True realism can only be achieved by this way; many RPGs are gratingly unrealistic linguistically, which detracts from the world's believability. Ideally, there should be diachronic conlanging, but that is too daunting for many.
A true realism could be created only if the creator/writer have real live experience,and asking questions about how some thing will work,and asking them about every thing.Sadly this decade most people's real live experience ends with tweeter and tumblr.

The problem with needing actual real life experience to make something accurate is experiences are very limited. I doubt anyone alive has been in a large battle with hand weapons. And if anyone has been involved on either side of a cavalry charge they are most likely living in a society with limited computer access and little knowledge of rpgs.

Also, people experience things differently. I have been in combat, but my experience is nothing like that of storming a beach in WW2. Or being at constant, brutal war for years like in WW1 and 2 for various European countries. My experiences are nothing like Alls Quiet on the Western Front. Modern day combat is usually short lived and for most of the time you are in relative safety without the oppressiveness people living in trenches for years, under constant threat of death almost all the time.

People also react differently in combat. I got tunnel vision which kind of blanket out everyone but me and my target and time was weird. It slowed down but not in a good way. This hurt me as I was supposed to be directing my team or squad, not in my own world oblivious to what was going on around me and outside my tunnel. But that doesn't happen to everyone, but is kind of common. My friend was freaked out the whole time and completely aware of everything and more observant than usually, but too freaked out for it to be a good thing. A lot of people are fine until rounds start flying, I was anxious and couldn't wait for and was relieved when they did. Not because I wanted to shoot at people or be shot at, but because it is better than waiting. I hate waiting.

Remember that Gurkha that killed like 30 attackers on his own within the last decade? His account makes it seem like he was present and aware and completely functional the whole time. I wish I could say I was like that. I'm not a coward but if someone was coming up behind me or on my flank in a fire fight I honestly would never notice it if I was alone and shooting at someone in front of me.

Also keep in mind that even the major battles of this century have been nothing like WW1 and WW2 where more people have died in a minute of some battles than in all the battles of this century. And their battles where nothing like when people used muskets and lined up. Which was nothing like when people used hand weapons. Anyone who has been in a lot of fist fights can probably agree that when you get completely winded you kind of stop caring so much about being punched. Was it the same when instead of a punch you'd get a spear or a sword?

Also, the more accurate rpgs are usually very annoying. I forget the name of the game but there was this one game that aimed to be pretty realistic. Your shield and weapon would break a lot. I ended up usually throwing spears and trying to keep my distance. Trying to fight up close against two people was usually a lose unless you got lucky. You versus three was impossible for the most part. Most of the combat rules and rpg rules led to cheesing battles, and it didn't encompass moral. I think most sane people would run from three armed people trying to kill them. I don't think most people want to play a game where they lose control of their character and run like a baby all the time.


If you think about it any realistic rpg system would be based around not dying instead of winning. I just don't think actual realism is what people want. People complain a lot about all the rariety of hitting in the old DSA system used for the RoA trilogy, and the critical fumbles, and weapons breaking, etc. I'd much rather have a very good and complex and interesting rpg system over a realistic one.

I think for settings sensible is a better aim than realistic. But, how much would people complain if there was no options for the modern day morals? People hated that there wasn't more options to save the orphan kids in the main Viking city. People want to be the hero as they believe heroes would act. If you had a setting where acting as most people day believe a hero would act gets them killed all the time, forcing them to make decisions they morally disagree with and anachronistically inserting into that setting, I think it would get far more complaints than praise.

Its also more noticeable in games that strive for it. When I wasn't allowed to do something I think my character would do in AoD it was way more annoying and noticeable than in Underrail. But AoD strived for options in dialogue where Underrail didn't so my expectations where different.


I, personally, like when a game allows you to do what you think is the right thing but attaches a cost to it. In TToN I kept that little girl in my party even though she sucked because my character wasn't a huge dick throwing little girls to the wild. It certainly hurt my combat performance. In Tuerigard and the Alliance with Rome it had things like setting the your slave free hurting you and the slave. There is also a mod for an overhaul mod of Skyrim that makes it so if you worship one of the good gods you have a limited number of times you can steal or assault people before they rejected you.

In my opinion you should be rewarded for doing what is the norm for the setting while being allowed to act otherwise, but acting anachronistically has a negative price. This also means no good points and bad points as that usually means equal reward and just picking a path and following the side that gives the most reward. Same with a karma system. It has the opposite impact of enhancing roleplaying, and curtails it or hamstrings it.
Uhhh i am talking about world building and shit not about combat.Real live experience is something that drastic.I am talking about many simple experiences like going to camp in the mountains or visiting some medieval castle town in Europa.Communicating with other people and acquiring knowledge from the their stories and experience,seeing barfights,trying to pickup chicks while drunk.All those things and many monre have big effect on person and its writing capabilities.
 

Iznaliu

Arbiter
Joined
Apr 28, 2016
Messages
3,686
A true realism could be created only if the creator/writer have real live experience,and asking questions about how some thing will work,and asking them about every thing.Sadly this decade most people's real live experience ends with tweeter and tumblr.

That isn't necessarily true, though real-world experience definitely helps.
 

*-*/\--/\~

Cipher
Joined
Jul 10, 2014
Messages
912
An interesting article, though I am more inclined to agree with Darwin rather than the modern "offended by everything" pussies.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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I wish when people said "generic boring fantasy settings" they'd actually give their examples, cos I can't say I've ever really played any "generic boring fantasy settings" and fantasy is my favourite cRPG genre.

If Sigil isn't weird enough or alien enough while also gradually introducing you to entirely new cultures while playing then I don't know what is. If a fantasy game is boring its not normally because the fantasy element is inherently crap, its because the people who made it have fuck all imagination and think the player will be happy pounding through tacticless combat against bear after bear, only stopping to complete their bear-pelt collection turn-in quest, until ther next mission: to collect wolf pelts.

I personally don't think you even need to go off the deep end to achieve originality either and that there's little point in making the design focus centre on making everything a culture-swap. In creating a world, the culture of that world can be both unsaid and subtle, such as with something like Bloodborne, or wordy and exposition-heavy, such as with something like Geneforge, but neither require you to invest in actually investing in figuring out a whole new culture. The idea that originality requires a complete overhaul of the established is akin to listening to a teenager trying to elaborate on why everything is wrong with the world, its a plea full of enthusiasm and force of opinion but entirely lacking in any accumulated wisdom and learning.

If you want to create an original and alien world then you don't want to be drawing reference to any historically accurate earthly culture. History is merely a tool to enable us to proceed into the future with collected experience of what is likely to work and what is likely to fail. Resurrecting defunct cultures just because you want to cash in on an originality craze is an oxymoronic hypocrasy as all you're doing is replacing one reality with another reality, neither providing the actual freedom of genuine originality that fantasy is supposed to promise.
 

Azarkon

Arcane
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Messages
2,989
I tend to think the normalization of the fantastic has more to do with the talent of the writers, or lack thereof, than the puissance of the public. It is far from trivial to craft a believable foreign culture; it took Tolkien his entire life time to realize mythic medieval England, and he was much less removed from that culture than the typical American hack. When dubious writers attempt the act of Creation, they fail, either in the direction of clueless cliche or shallow, insensible weird. Take the drow, for example - the alien superfices of their society cannot hide the fact that they're basically and ultimately just an exaggerated inversion of Christian America - with a matriarchy, instead of a patriarchy; with devil worshiping sadomasochism, instead of old fashioned Protestant values; and with decadent counter cultural symbols like spiders and skulls and whips, bearing more resemblance to a Gothic punk band than a sensible evolution of underground elves. Obviously, the primary conflicts of their society revolve around racism, xenophobia, and sexism, rather than anything original, because those are the stereotypical values we associate with cultures standing opposed to America.

And that's considered one of the success stories of fantasy world building, within the community. I can't even bear to describe the failures, but suffice to say they are everywhere in CRPGs. In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC. The trend, hardly recent, of using historical European, Asian, and African cultural superfices as inspiration upon which to duplicate modern cliches about those cultures is just another way of arriving at the same end product - a stage on which to set an equally cliche story about Coming of Age or the Chosen One or some other presumed to be universal but in fact very American archetype.

As to the possibility of change? Hope springs eternal in the human breast; Man never is, but always to be blessed. Basic empathy being a rather difficult task, such that it is nearly impossible for an American to imagine himself veritably in the shoes of a contemporary Muslim Arab or Communist Chinese, I would doubt that any amount of knowledge or consultation could suffice to raise the average video game writer beyond his or her bubble of self-worship. Do not count on progress; for then you will not be disappointed.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...
 

Azarkon

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Messages
2,989
That's kind of what I'm missing - I want fantasy cultures to require that I get into them a little, and this knowledge to then be of use to me in the game. Remember Amaunator's ritual in BGII for example. You can't progress until you learn it. Knowledge of a fantasy culture's customs, not as a character stat, but as actual knowledge of details conceived by designers, and counterintuitive to us, the players, and to our culture.

Cases like Amaunator's ritual in Baldur's Gate II or Aoskar's temple in Planescape: Torment are examples of cultural superfice - a litany of facts and trivia that are not felt but memorized. It is a shallow sort of cultural display, analogous to asking a liberal arts college professor of Japanese studies about Japanese culture, and getting answers like: "well, they have a hierarchical society, they care a lot about personal honor and face, they're pretty xenophobic, etc." But then when you go and create a society thus described, you find that it is little more than a stereotype of Japan, not a living, breathing culture. For the latter is not defined by a superficial set of values or rituals; it is an experiential concept, impossible to capture but by those who have lived it personally and profoundly. Such differences become obvious when you compare a movie about Japan made by a Western studio - ie the Last Samurai - and a movie about Japan made by the Japanese - ie Rashomon. This is despite the fact that Akira Kurosawa was heavily influenced by Western cinematic styles and techniques, and the fact that the Last Samurai was in turn heavily influenced by Akira Kurosawa.

But of course, being CRPG players, we should already be familiar with this effect from our own medium, with how alien and strange Japanese CRPGs feel relative to our own games, even when they're trying to capture, essentially, medieval Europe - and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II. Venture into the world of Muslim or Chinese popular media and the fundamental differences in cultural values and assumptions are even more stark, and wholly distinct from Western attempts at portraying those societies in products such as Jade Empire and Prince of Persia. The superfice of a culture is the easiest aspect to get right - the proverbial tail of the elephant, and yet that is about how far the vast majority of developers are willing to go.

When we fail, thus, to capture the experiential qualities of living societies within our own contemporary world, how much more must we fail when attempting to capture imagined societies whose only frames of reference are the historical descriptions that inspired them? You can choose to live a decade or two in Japan, to try and breath in the qualities that natives take for granted, even though you'll still ultimately be limited to an outsider's experience unless you're actually Japanese. You can't, however, choose to live in a medieval fantasy. Such a world exists only in the mind, and a magnificent mind it must be, that can portray with any degree of verisimilitude the tone and cadence of a different world.
 

Iznaliu

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and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.
 

Azarkon

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Messages
2,989
In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.
 

Neanderthal

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Aoskar's temple int really a good example o verisimilitude in Torment, though I don't think anyones ever been stupid enough to say Torments not detailed enough, as its fairly poorly fleshed out like they were meaning to add faction that makes a homebase there an decided not to at some point in development. Its legion o other Sigil peculiarities that makes its culture pop when you get involved in it: Bounties on Cranium Rats an their strikeback, ways to infiltrate mortuary an other fction headquarters, payin a tout to run you through an areas outline, findin out through Stories Bones Tell sad tale o Gris an his companions emphasising tragic life o Buried Villagers an unlocking more content, buying ratsies off Creeden an getting the lowdown on all kinda crap, being told off by anybody for mentioning the Lady an local fear o Fells parlour for same reason.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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In fact, most developers do not even attempt to be original; their concern is only to conjure enough distinction to avoid being sued by either the Tolkien estate, Blizzard, or WoTC.

In fact, then name them...

Obsidian, Larian, Bioware, and that's just the most recent cases.

And you class these three companies as being "most developers" do you? That's not at all hyperbolic myopia is it...

It is more appropriate to ask which fantasy CRPG isn't in imitation of Tolkien, Dungeons and Dragons, or both.

What have you got against people who are Tolkien or D&D fans having a product which appeals to them?
 

Azarkon

Arcane
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Messages
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and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.
 
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IncendiaryDevice

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and that's Japan, a culture that has been thoroughly subject to Western influence since the end of World War II.

Japan has in some ways rejected Western influence more than other countries.

I don't think you realize just how Western Japan is when compared to other East Asian countries, and how actively and aggressively they attempted to emulate the West, to the extent of declaring that they were leaving Asia.

And yet, Japan is distinct in every practical way.

Define "western".
 

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