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Build or recruit a party?

Do you prefer to...

  • Build your own party (5+) (Wizardry, ToEE, Realsm of Arkania, WL2

    Votes: 66 42.9%
  • Build your own party (up to 4 but no more) (Dark Sun, Knights of the Chalice)

    Votes: 7 4.5%
  • Mix of build and recruit (Storm of Zhephir(sp?) for NWN2, D:OS

    Votes: 37 24.0%
  • Fully recruit a party (all the IE games, Drakensang 1 and 2, Kotors, Dragon Age, etc.

    Votes: 44 28.6%

  • Total voters
    154

DavidBVal

4 Dimension Games
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Recruit early, so you can then customize as the character levels up. If there's enough variety of characters to recruit, you would almost be designing the party after all, so you get the best of both worlds.

Also, a few constrains derived from the recruited character initial stats, can make the party design more interesting, like for instance, if each recruit has potential advantages/disadvantages, some only showing in the long run, etc (example, Imoen with her high INT and her multiclass to mage, etc.)
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
It doesn't matter as long as your party is larger than 4 characters

GIVE US 5, 6, 7 OR EVEN 8 CHARACTER PARTIES
STOP THIS 4 CHARS FAGGOTRY
HOW AM I SUPPOSED TO TRY OUT DIFFERENT CLASSES THAT MIGHT BE FUN IF I HAVE TO SPEND AT LEAST THREE PARTY SLOTS TO COVER THE NECESSARY ROLES
YEAH SO I GOT KNIGHT CLERIC WIZARD THIEF CAUSE I NEED THEM HOW AM I GOING TO FIT THE NECRORAPIST IN THERE
WHAT WAS WRONG WITH 6 CHARACTER PARTIES JESUS CHRIST EVEN BALDUR'S GATE ALLOWE YOU TO HAVE 6 WHO CAME UP WITH THE FAGGY IDEA OF LIMITING NUMBER OF CHARS TO 4
WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU
FUCK YOU BIOWARE I'M LOOKING AT YOU WTF IN SOME OF YOUR GAMES YOU CAN EVEN ONLY TAKE 3 I MEAN WTF IS THIS SHIT
ALSO, HEY, MIGHT AND MAGIC, YOU USED TO BE COOL, WHY DID YOU GO DOWN TO 4 CHAR PARTIES YOU FAGGOT?
THANK YOU WIZARDRY FOR BEING THE ONLY ONE WHO STAYED TRUE
 

lurker3000

Arcane
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
1,714
STOP THIS 4 CHARS FAGGOTRY

Yeah I always feel 4 char parties are just there becase the developers have no idea how to balance things for a larger party. F/T/C/M gets old real fast if that's all you can take.

Its one of the reasons why D:OS has been my least favorite of the big three releases.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,854
Yeah I always feel 4 char parties are just there becase the developers have no idea how to balance things for a larger party. F/T/C/M gets old real fast if that's all you can take.

Its one of the reasons why D:OS has been my least favorite of the big three releases.
But D:OS never enforced such party composition, it was a classless system. Even if you went with archetypical builds, you could get away with almost anything you could think of.
 

lurker3000

Arcane
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Mar 1, 2012
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But D:OS never enforced such party composition, it was a classless system. Even if you went with archetypical builds, you could get away with almost anything you could think of.

Yeah that's true. Thinking back I believe I had one Tank and 3 hybrid castors/fighters who each specialized in a different school/element or whatever differentiated the spells. I guess I just don't like a 4 person party.
 
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My team has the sexiest and deadliest waifus you can recruit.
I generally prefer to build a party from scratch, but I have to say Ishar's parties are pretty fun with how the different npcs could screw you over.
 

DraQ

Arcane
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Chrząszczyżewoszyce, powiat Łękołody
its kind of definition
Sadly it isn't (though it should).

Take BG you presumably love, for instance.
It tries to work like full party game despite it being effectively a solo game with followers.

It results in all sorts of sad mishaps like evil, self interested characters willingly walking up to the protagonist, giving up all their possessions and meekly getting the fuck out or a game built like party based one but ending when just one character bites it making it dependent on either metagaming or avoidance of certain, otherwise perfectly valid builds.

If a game has predefined *characters* joining you, they should act like independent characters which in BG only happens when they start to duke it out between themselves (which is the only part of BG I would describe as awesome), rather than player's compliant pawns.

A proper party based game is something like Wizardry - player makes all their characters and gets to define them in full, including their agendas and behaviour.
A proper solo + followers game is something like Fallout - characters not created by the player are not controlled directly and can't be made to do everything player wants (although some sort of command interface is definitely welcome addition as it enables proper tactics, a follower should be able to say "no and fuck you" if they find a command objectionable).
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Meh, I hate it when games have followers that can't be controlled in combat because that makes the combat usually a boring affair, and too dependant on the AI. If the game is turn based or RtwP, combat is going to be a boring affair if you only have a single character to control, and there won't be any tactics at all. Such a thing might be okay in a game with Diablo-like action combat, and in those kinds of games I just don't take followers.

But yeah, something like a mechanic that makes them refuse certain orders would be a good thing.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,854
Sadly it isn't (though it should).

Take BG you presumably love, for instance.
It tries to work like full party game despite it being effectively a solo game with followers.

It results in all sorts of sad mishaps like evil, self interested characters willingly walking up to the protagonist, giving up all their possessions and meekly getting the fuck out or a game built like party based one but ending when just one character bites it making it dependent on either metagaming or avoidance of certain, otherwise perfectly valid builds.

If a game has predefined *characters* joining you, they should act like independent characters which in BG only happens when they start to duke it out between themselves (which is the only part of BG I would describe as awesome), rather than player's compliant pawns.
This post strikes me as such a retarded nitpick its a new low for you draq.
Some of the gear from the characters you recruited couldnt be removed, because it was theirs, it was annoying as hell, but well, it was part of their characters so whatever. if anything more than once i wished they would have given me more control. Also why wouldnt they give you their shit, they give you complete control over what they do, you can send them naked and alone against a dragon.

Point being, BGs execution didnt detract from the experience, as the control that was given to the player was needed to maneuver properly in combat, Yeah, you could game the game and get some shit loot or you could not and save yourself some time.
 

Zombra

An iron rock in the river of blood and evil
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A proper party based game is something like Wizardry - player makes all their characters and gets to define them in full, including their agendas and behaviour.
I really want to see what's up with Divinity OS 2. They're kind of making promises out of both sides of their mouths. I want to have a fully controllable party with opposing scripted objectives within the team dammit.

But yeah, something like a mechanic that makes them refuse certain orders would be a good thing.
*dreamy sigh* Jagged Alliance
:love:
 

Athelas

Arcane
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
4,502
Sadly it isn't (though it should).

Take BG you presumably love, for instance.
It tries to work like full party game despite it being effectively a solo game with followers.

It results in all sorts of sad mishaps like evil, self interested characters willingly walking up to the protagonist, giving up all their possessions and meekly getting the fuck out or a game built like party based one but ending when just one character bites it making it dependent on either metagaming or avoidance of certain, otherwise perfectly valid builds.

If a game has predefined *characters* joining you, they should act like independent characters which in BG only happens when they start to duke it out between themselves (which is the only part of BG I would describe as awesome), rather than player's compliant pawns.

A proper party based game is something like Wizardry - player makes all their characters and gets to define them in full, including their agendas and behaviour.
A proper solo + followers game is something like Fallout - characters not created by the player are not controlled directly and can't be made to do everything player wants (although some sort of command interface is definitely welcome addition as it enables proper tactics, a follower should be able to say "no and fuck you" if they find a command objectionable).
You can have the best of both worlds. Mercs in Jagged Alliance 2 immediately turn hostile if you target them and the companions in Planescape: Torment refuse to let you remove their armor, weapons and the unique items they came with from their inventory. Full-party control is a must if you want to have anything approaching fun gameplay.
 
Last edited:

Old Hans

Arcane
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Oct 10, 2011
Messages
1,476
I like recruiting characters and working with what I get. Otherwise It's 18 stats for everyone and then I feel like a dirty sinner
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
Patron
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
5,115
A proper party based game is something like Wizardry - player makes all their characters and gets to define them in full, including their agendas and behaviour.
A proper solo + followers game is something like Fallout - characters not created by the player are not controlled directly and can't be made to do everything player wants (although some sort of command interface is definitely welcome addition as it enables proper tactics, a follower should be able to say "no and fuck you" if they find a command objectionable).

I tend to agree with both of these. Also, why hasn't anyone copied Wizardry 8's character creation yet to satisfactory degree? Yeah yeah, I get it that having special snowflake companions lets writers justify their salaries, but defining personalities and seeing characters play off of each other based on that was priceless.
 

DraQ

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its a new low for you draq.
It's neither, actually.
+M

Some of the gear from the characters you recruited couldnt be removed, because it was theirs, it was annoying as hell, but well, it was part of their characters so whatever.
And it applied to how many characters and gear pieces? Edwin had his amulet - ok, anyone else?
if anything more than once i wished they would have given me more control. Also why wouldnt they give you their shit, they give you complete control over what they do, you can send them naked and alone against a dragon.
Exactly, why wouldn't, for example, a somewhat asshole dwarf interesting in killing shit for fun and profit (but mostly profit) give up all his stuff and go up to willingly become a dorf roast?
:retarded:

If anything Wiz 8 RPC (oh the irony) behaviour should be absolute minimum, with personal items that are unequippable but can't get moved out of character's inventory and stuff like turning on the party if they, for example, attack character's friends.
Ideally, you should have this, plus stuff like characters refusing to give up gear unless given better or equal gear of their favoured type unless in specific circumstances.

Point being, BGs execution didnt detract from the experience, as the control that was given to the player was needed to maneuver properly in combat, Yeah, you could game the game and get some shit loot or you could not and save yourself some time.
Yeah, well, no.
A game where you can make a paladin with established character (or better yet, a chaotic good type) skewer orphans for no reason then whine about party being assholes instead of flat out refusing or even attacking your murderous ass is a shit one.

You don't need to be able to strip independent characters naked or make them stab townsfolk either for vast majority of sensible strategies.

Meh, I hate it when games have followers that can't be controlled in combat because that makes the combat usually a boring affair, and too dependant on the AI. If the game is turn based or RtwP, combat is going to be a boring affair if you only have a single character to control, and there won't be any tactics at all. Such a thing might be okay in a game with Diablo-like action combat, and in those kinds of games I just don't take followers.

But yeah, something like a mechanic that makes them refuse certain orders would be a good thing.
Even modern day bethpizda can accomplish that (see Skyrim which has - kludgy and not very useful in the thick of things, but still - command menu and characters that refuse to perform actions conflicting with their morality and don't give up their personal gear even if they can replace it with better one if you give it to them).

Control is good because tactics is good, but characters should filter the commands through their own judgement. This could mean a moral character refusing killing innocents in cold blood or stealing shit, a cowardly character running from battle, a berserker ignoring your orders and just charging in or a psycho sometimes stabbing people for no reason. Also pretty much any character not just giving up vital gear.

This could mean some interesting tradeoffs too - for example would you like a disciplined, average fighter or a powerhouse that charges in ignoring your orders and brains townspeople for looking at him funny?
 

octavius

Arcane
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Bjørgvin
A proper party based game is something like Wizardry - player makes all their characters and gets to define them in full, including their agendas and behaviour.

How do you LARP 6-8 different characters?
 

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