Interview Brian Fargo and Josh Sawyer Mega-Interview at PC Gamer

[DeepOcean]

JS: I think it’s important over time you learn how to parse through what people are saying, because their feelings are never wrong, their feelings are always valid. But they’ll say, ‘Do this,’ and it’s like, ‘Hold on, yes, I understand that you’re upset about this, but what you’re saying is not necessarily the solution,’ and so it takes some time and experience, and a lot of times it just takes a little bit of time and space for you to think about the problem, hear more people’s input on it, and then you can come to a conclusion. And it’s not the thing that the person told you to do, maybe it doesn’t make that individual person happy, but you can still make it better for everyone. Like he said, when you get more people and more feedback, you learn to parse through, ‘What’s the actual problem here? People aren’t happy, but what’s the solution?’

THIS is the essence of Josh Sawyer, ladies and gentlemen.

"I hear what you're saying, and that's totally valid, but that's not the right solution. Let me tell you the solution. I, Josh Sawyer, know what you want better than you do."

Yeah, so this is actually common sense for basically everything in the universe, except you people are just obsessed with Josh Sawyer

You think a good writer just writes what the fans tell him/her to write, a good musician just says "OK" when fans say "make your songs longer/shorter", you think a good sociologist or therapist just takes people at their word?

Every good professional listens seriously to the complaints, then thinks about the best way to solve that problem. It's the complaint that matters, not the amateur consumer's 5-second speculations about what might solve the problem. Users/consumers, for the most part, are experts at identifying the problem, because they spend all their time playing the game. The creators are experts at identifying the solution, and then all that matters is whether they're good at it or not. Josh Sawyer you might argue is just shit at finding solutions (and in fact, I do think it's not his strong suite at all), but if so the reason won't be because he is obeying a logic that every other video game developer with a functioning brain also follows.

Also remember the 'fans' here aren't even limited to Codexers, so this would be Styg listening to Underrail complaints and adding quest compasses and maps, TOrment listening to complaints and cutting the word count in half. People have all sorts of stupid and contradictory 'solutions' that they usually thought about for 10 seconds based on their sample of 1 in ignorance of how video games are even made. Why would any sane person ever just do what they say?

Nah, it isn't that he must hear every bullshit people say but you must be careful to not be biased on your favor what is something truly easy to happen. He didn't listen alot of complaints on PoE and that still didn't make the combat in that game to suck less.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

"Sawyer is an egoist, he didn't listen to MY complaint, he listened to another guy's complaint"

Brilliant.

 

[Infinitron]

The thing is that a lot of that "feedback" was basically just "This game's encounter design is kind of meh." Which is like, duh, no shit. So they improved it in the expansion pack, but by the time that came out a whole bunch of people had convinced themselves that basically every single change that PoE made to the IE formula was the REAL reason why they didn't enjoy the encounters. It's not that the encounters were just too simple, it was really because of non-round based combat or melee engagement or something. Now obviously those changes can be criticized but I really doubt they're the real reason anybody didn't enjoy the game. Yet they still become part of this huge litany of "feedback" that Josh Sawyer supposedly refused to listen to.

 

[Roguey]

Sounds like Pillars was a spiritual successor to Icewind Dale in more ways in one (as I documented in my article).

(that is, I found base Icewind Dale combat largely a bore and noticeably improved with Heart of Winter and again with Trials of the Luremaster)

 

[Hegel]

IWD was easily the weakest IWD game (though the best one art-wise), yes, Sawyer's designed IWD2 included. Though itemization and magic in IE games w ere never as bland as they are in PoE

 

[bonescraper]

JS: I think it’s important over time you learn how to parse through what people are saying, because their feelings are never wrong, their feelings are always valid. But they’ll say, ‘Do this,’ and it’s like, ‘Hold on, yes, I understand that you’re upset about this, but what you’re saying is not necessarily the solution,’ and so it takes some time and experience, and a lot of times it just takes a little bit of time and space for you to think about the problem, hear more people’s input on it, and then you can come to a conclusion. And it’s not the thing that the person told you to do, maybe it doesn’t make that individual person happy, but you can still make it better for everyone. Like he said, when you get more people and more feedback, you learn to parse through, ‘What’s the actual problem here? People aren’t happy, but what’s the solution?’

THIS is the essence of Josh Sawyer, ladies and gentlemen.

"I hear what you're saying, and that's totally valid, but that's not the right solution. Let me tell you the solution. I, Josh Sawyer, know what you want better than you do."

Close. He's actually saying this: "You make valid points, so let me provide a solution. It's not what you ask for, and you may not like it, but others will!" Too bad he didn't have the guts to end it with "Oh, but thanks for your Kickstarter money and free bug testing, sucker!"

Obsidian doesn't have to sell 1 million copies if you funded their game. They get almost 100% profit margin (i don't know how much Paradox takes) on every copy sold to people who weren't retarded enough to buy into an uncertain project. That's how you do bu$ine$$ on gullible, nostalgic grognards.



Fool me once, shame on you. Never again Sawyer. Never again.

 

[Tigranes]

"Encounter design sucks" = complaint. "Add more wizard battles a la BG2" = suggested solution.

Josh Sawyer says: "I listen to complaints, I try to come up with best solution to the complaint, which may not be the solution they suggest"
Josh Sawyer Stalkers: "OMFG LOOK HE JUST DOES WHAT HE WANTS TO DO HE WON'T LISTEN TO ME WHY WON'T HE EVER LISTEN WHEN I AM TALKING BWAH"

For reference, here's an easy list of things I've seen numerous people insist is the solution to what they didn't like about POE. Ask yourself if POE would be a good/better game if Obsidian slavishly obeyed the following:

• Remove camping supplies, allow unlimited resting all the time
• Get rid of OP shadows
• Get rid of OP lagufaeth
• Make dragons easier
• Make dragons harder
• Add romances
• Add walking toggle
• Add full voice acting
• Make rangers better
• Make rogues better
• Make clerics better
• Make chanters better
• Make barbarians better
• Make paladins better
  
• Make druids better
• Make wizards better
• Make wizards worse
• Make ciphers worse
• You made ciphers shit, make them better

Who knows why some people insist on imagining shit that nobody said (e.g. the post above mine) and going apeshit, when it's really easy to just say, "POE had shitty encounter design", and have even most POE-lovers nod their heads in agreement.

 

[Blaine]

The devil knows his own, eh?

Not at all.

I believe it's healthier for game design if one tyrant controls the overall direction and design of the game—but a poor tyrant keeps only his own counsel. A wise tyrant heeds the counsel of informed advisers. No great king, khan, or conqueror in history made any weighty decision without consulting his advisers.

No, the gaming public at large aren't informed advisers; far from it. That includes most of the Codex (and me). The gaming public are like peasants who bring their problems to their tyrant, J.E. Sawyer in this case.

Sawyer heard the complaints, but decided to miracle up solutions all on his lonesome. I'm sure he discussed his solutions with Obsidian staff and Something Awful, but to me it's fairly clear he arrived at the majority of his solutions unilaterally, since they closely resemble the same gibberish he'd been spouting from the beginning of the Kickstarter.

You're right, though: I do understand the mindset. He scrutinized the older IE-style cRPGs and similar, listened to complaints, had a great big think, and worked out what he thought were ideal solutions. Like many before him in countless contexts, he viewed a complex system from a limited point of view and decided he knew how it all worked and understood exactly what to do. I saw it coming a mile away years before PoE released, and I was absolutely right (quotes available upon request).

Note, I'm referring mostly to game mechanics and system design choices. Sawyer defenders can make lists and hurl insults all they like, but the fact of the matter is that PoE turned out mediocre. Josh's goal was to make it totally awesome and better overall than any of its predecessors, but failed to do so spectacularly. Even Roguey, the eternal Sawyer shill, abandoned him in the end.

 

[TigerKnee]

(quotes available upon request).

Drop those quotes, retrospective is fun

 

[hpstg]

Time for me to pitch in my crap too.

Sawyer gets heavily involved in games he's obviously not passionate about. That explains the general lack of flavor in Pillars. I might be wrong, but the game is boring because he didn't really wanted to makes game like that, not because he's a bad designer. Enthusiasm and passion for things tends to show. The whole thing with Fergus sounds like the moment where he lost whatever actual passion he might have had for it.

I would give him the small game he obviously wanted much and a bigger leash, just to finally see what's the game he's got in him (if there's anything left).

 

[Ninjerk]

Josh Sawyer is the Weaver gone mad.

edit: Also, Blaine: request.

 

[Blaine]

(quotes available upon request).

Drop those quotes, retrospective is fun

There are tons, and there are also three different threads and a variety of search terms to try (I don't remember everything I posted verbatim), but the earliest thread with "Josh" as a search argument will suffice for the moment. My misgivings with Josh's lordship began in 2012, and ultimately the things I said would happen as a result of his design did happen, though note it by no means took a genius to make those predictions.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?search/36246516/&q=josh&t=post&o=date&c

My personal favorite is this, I barely remember writing any of this shit now:

 

[Ninjerk]

Most of it is bagging on Roguey Like, in an extremely focused way.

 

[Lady_Error]

in an already budget-starved game.

According to Sawyer, their problem was that they got too much money for POE.

 

[ArchAngel]

"Encounter design sucks" = complaint. "Add more wizard battles a la BG2" = suggested solution.

Josh Sawyer says: "I listen to complaints, I try to come up with best solution to the complaint, which may not be the solution they suggest"
Josh Sawyer Stalkers: "OMFG LOOK HE JUST DOES WHAT HE WANTS TO DO HE WON'T LISTEN TO ME WHY WON'T HE EVER LISTEN WHEN I AM TALKING BWAH"

For reference, here's an easy list of things I've seen numerous people insist is the solution to what they didn't like about POE. Ask yourself if POE would be a good/better game if Obsidian slavishly obeyed the following:

• Remove camping supplies, allow unlimited resting all the time
• Get rid of OP shadows
• Get rid of OP lagufaeth
• Make dragons easier
• Make dragons harder
• Add romances
• Add walking toggle
• Add full voice acting
• Make rangers better
• Make rogues better
• Make clerics better
• Make chanters better
• Make barbarians better
• Make paladins better
  
• Make druids better
• Make wizards better
• Make wizards worse
• Make ciphers worse
• You made ciphers shit, make them better

Who knows why some people insist on imagining shit that nobody said (e.g. the post above mine) and going apeshit, when it's really easy to just say, "POE had shitty encounter design", and have even most POE-lovers nod their heads in agreement.

The thing is that a lot of that "feedback" was basically just "This game's encounter design is kind of meh." Which is like, duh, no shit. So they improved it in the expansion pack, but by the time that came out a whole bunch of people had convinced themselves that basically every single change that PoE made to the IE formula was the REAL reason why they didn't enjoy the encounters. It's not that the encounters were just too simple, it was really because of non-round based combat or melee engagement or something. Now obviously those changes can be criticized but I really doubt they're the real reason anybody didn't enjoy the game. But they still become part of this huge litany of "feedback" that Josh Sawyer supposedly refused to listen to.

I will not go into details because anyone here with a brain knows you are both full of shit so let me just leave this:

 

[Blaine]

Most of it is bagging on Roguey Like, in an extremely focused way.

Yeah, well, that search argument was for "Josh." I know I made one all-encompassing doomsaying post someplace.

 

[Infinitron]

Note, I'm referring mostly to game mechanics and system design choices.

I will not go into details because anyone here with a brain knows you are both full of shit so let me just leave this:

But it's true. You guys have wasted a year bitching about systemic stuff that doesn't matter and you still don't realize it. It's the content, stupid. Content is king. If anything, PoE's 3E/4E-inspired system design is what sets it apart from the Infinity Engine games and makes it interesting.

I see Sensuki is watching these threads again, but even he admitted early on, even after everything he wrote, that the game's narrative was ultimately his real turn-off. PoE's real problem isn't that it's not AD&D enough. It's that it's not PS:T enough.

One of the reasons I did that interview with Eric is that I realized that the nitpicky systems-centric, Sawyer-centric criticism of PoE had run its course and that the narrative and other high-level design aspects of the game were emerging as the more important topic. Because that's what stays with you in the long run. 5 years later you don't think about "melee engagement", you think about the story and the overall experiences that you had. But there's always some people who can't let go.

 

[ArchAngel]

Note, I'm referring mostly to game mechanics and system design choices.

I will not go into details because anyone here with a brain knows you are both full of shit so let me just leave this:

But it's true. You guys have wasted a year bitching about systemic stuff that doesn't matter and you still don't realize it. It's the content, stupid. Content is king. If anything, PoE's 3E/4E-inspired system design is what sets it apart from the Infinity Engine games and makes it interesting.

I see Sensuki is watching these threads again, but even he admitted early on, even after everything he wrote, that the game's narrative was ultimately his real turn-off. PoE's real problem isn't that it's not AD&D enough. It's that it's not PS:T enough.

One of the reasons I did that interview with Eric is that I realized that the nitpicky systems-centric, Sawyer-centric criticism of PoE had run its course and that the narrative and other high-level design aspects of the game were emerging as the more important topic. Because that's what stays with you in the long run. 5 years later you don't think about "melee engagement", you think about the story and the overall experiences that you had. But there's always some people who can't let go.

These games need to get one thing right to be good, PoE was average in both. Sensuki probably meant that after he analyzed combat and mechanics he found them crap then he turned his attention to story and the world as a saving grace and also found those crap and then he quit. He didn't quit because of that alone.

 

[holla_cabezas_de_mierda]

Note, I'm referring mostly to game mechanics and system design choices.

I will not go into details because anyone here with a brain knows you are both full of shit so let me just leave this:

But it's true. You guys have wasted a year bitching about systemic stuff that doesn't matter and you still don't realize it. It's the content, stupid. Content is king. If anything, PoE's 3E/4E-inspired system design is what sets it apart from the Infinity Engine games and makes it interesting.

I see Sensuki is watching these threads again, but even he admitted early on, even after everything he wrote, that the game's narrative was ultimately his real turn-off. PoE's real problem isn't that it's not AD&D enough. It's that it's not PS:T enough.

One of the reasons I did that interview with Eric is that I realized that the nitpicky systems-centric, Sawyer-centric criticism of PoE had run its course and that the narrative and other high-level design aspects of the game were emerging as the more important topic. Because that's what stays with you in the long run. 5 years later you don't think about "melee engagement", you think about the story and the overall experiences that you had. But there's always some people who can't let go.

I honestly think you have it completely backward.

PoE is not fun mainly and maybe only because of its systems. I believe that the exact same story and narrative, but in a D&D world (and not 4E D&D, but version 1, 2 or 3), with D&D character development and builds, D&D monsters and locations and especially D&D itemization and lore, would take PoE from boring and bad to very good and fun.

You are not the only one confused on this issue obviously, because most game designers seem unaware as well, so they end up wasting a huge amount of time developing terrible systems (often bashing D&D in the process). After their games do not do as well as hoped they probably end up deciding CRPG's just don't have a big enough audience or something when the fact of the matter is it seems like they don't know who their audience is or what they want.

 

[CptMace]

One of the reasons I did that interview with Eric is that I realized that the nitpicky systems-centric, Sawyer-centric criticism of PoE had run its course and that the narrative and other high-level design aspects of the game were emerging as the more important topic. Because that's what stays with you in the long run. 5 years later you don't think about "melee engagement", you think about the story and the overall experiences that you had. But there's always some people who can't let go.

Amen. Btw I don't know if you were right about potd (regarding monsters' stats mostly) or if the 3.x tuning went well (or both) but the overall experience in chapter 2 feels way better now regarding difficulty.

Although agree with Tigranes about the silly shit people have been saying for more than a year now. The "no walk/run toggle ? Really ?" was the most facepalm-inducing though.

 

[Blaine]

But it's true. You guys have wasted a year bitching about systemic stuff that doesn't matter and you still don't realize it.

Fuck off, retard. You're stuck in a loop of utterly flawed logic and somehow haven't realized it. Sawyer spent years going on and on about system-related minutiae, about how the system he was designing would make the game great and correct the mistakes of developers past, and yet here you are saying that the system doesn't matter. All those years of work, and for what? According to you, nothing—systemic stuff isn't important.

If systemic stuff doesn't matter, then perhaps the great J.E. Sawyer should have opted for traditional cRPG design and fired himself from the team in late 2013 so that more of our Kickstarter funds had been available for manpower that did matter.

Besides which, you're completely wrong: A well-conceived system of game mechanics greatly enhances any cRPG, including and even especially one with an excellent setting and storyline. PoE's setting and storyline were unfortunately mediocre, so we ended up with a thoroughly mediocre game.

"Emerging as the more important topic" my ass. PoE is extremely combat-heavy. Even if the systemic issues have been discussed to death at this point, they're still important. I realize that some of you have spent months in the Obsidian forum squabbling about it, whereas I jumped ship as soon as I finished PoE, but nevertheless the game is a gestalt of its character and combat mechanics; gameplay systems; and setting, story, and characters. They can be discussed individually but they are indivisible in practice.

 

[CptMace]

Even if the systemic issues have been discussed to death at this point, they're still important.

Why ?
Beside the fact they're the stick we can beat sawyer with, which seems to be the objective in fine.
They've been talked to death already. Very balance-oriented, both class-less and class-based bastard design. We already know all that, It's not gonna change.
Writing however is more interesting to talk about, because it concerns the story, the narration, the world-building and all of this can change in a sequel and subsequent games.

 

[Infinitron]

Sawyer spent years going on and on about system-related minutiae

He did. It was your choice - our choice - to take that stuff more seriously than it warranted.

about how the system he was designing would make the game great

No, he just said it would be a better system. A game is more than its system.

yet here you are saying that the system doesn't matter

I've been saying that stuff for a long time. Yes, there is a certain irony to it.

You can think of it as like Republicans and abortion - it's an issue they throw out and that their base obsesses about beyond all sense of proportion.

Think about this way. Here's two sets of issues:

1) Encounter design, story and pacing, choice & consequence (actually important game design aspects)

2) No bad builds attribute design, inventory stash, melee engagement (Sawyer tweaks to D&D and the Infinite Engine formula)

Of these two sets of issues, which one do you think needs to be at the top of list of things that need to be improved in Pillars of Eternity 2? Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's gonna be (1). The truth is that an objective look shows that all of Sawyer's tweaks just don't amount to much. It's a ruleset, it does what it needs to do. Like switching to a new pair of shoes, it's weird and uncomfortable at first but then it becomes the new normal. It can and will be improved, but that'll just be icing on the cake.

 

[vivec]

Oldschool RPGs don't sell that much anymore?

How do you know? How many old school rpgs have been release so far? How many copies did BG:EE sell?

monsters that respawn every time you rest." Great, now all the people who like clearing out areas permanently hate your game and will never play it. "Add monsters that intelligently fortify the dungeon as time passes!" Great, now your designers are spending time adding complex scripting to dungeons in an already budget-starved game. Also, the time limit crowd probably hates that too. Etc, etc.

Or use your brain to devise a solution. Like decent encounter design coupled with ambushes. Suddenly you're ambushed by a party of mages, clerics and fighters, it's a bit different from your average 13 xaurips of various colors and with your resources depleted, it's not going to be a walk in the park.
PoE's design runs from stupid to lazy.

That is too much to expect from anyone who designed the Icewind Dale 2 genocidal clusterfest.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

But it's true. You guys have wasted a year bitching about systemic stuff that doesn't matter and you still don't realize it. It's the content, stupid. Content is king. If anything, PoE's 3E/4E-inspired system design is what sets it apart from the Infinity Engine games and makes it interesting.

Of course systems matter, they factor heavily into moment-to-moment gameplay and flow of the game, especially in a combat heavy one. They're not some unimportant elements of the game you can abstract.

Yeah, PoE would have been a better game with better content (encounter design, plot, quests etc.) but same goes for any other game ever released, it's not unique in that regard.