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KickStarter Bloodstained - Koji Igarashi's new metroidvania game

Somberlain

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
Mar 5, 2012
Messages
6,202
Location
Basement
-SoTN DOESN'T have copy pasted enemies everywhere. Hell SotN has literally places where you have like 1 unique monster that isn't used anywhere else that dies instantly. I think you are confusing it with later games.

I meant stuff like that really, really long corridor in the Marble Gallery that has just Diplocephaluses and later Stone Roses over and over again, or between Clock Tower and Castle Keep there's this large room where all the enemies are just Sword Lords. And having multiple identical enemies in the same room isn't a problem in itself, it's just that in Symphony these enemies tend to be placed so far from one another that you just move forward, kill the enemy and then move to the next, one by one. In Classicvanias and later Igavanias you are often forced to fight groups, often with a mix of different enemies, which makes it more interesting and difficult.


-Backtracing is issue with later vania games after Down of Sorrow as you get shops and trading proper which were existing previously but they were worthless since you could easily find better gear. AND unlike those two games souls mechanics wasn't that much expanded so you didn't need to grind and do something with those souls thus you didn't need to backtrack.

Sorry but I don't really understand what you are trying to say here. What I'm saying is that Symphony has too much backtracking and probably more than any other game for a few reasons. First of all, there could be slightly more teleport rooms. Second, there should be teleport rooms next to the inverted castle portal and the Master Librarian. In this way, you could use a library card to warp to the librarian and then immediately jump to the teleport room closest to your destination. Symphony has the biggest castle in the series and non-veterans will constantly have to run between locked doors and rooms they haven't gotten past yet to figure out how to advance. Better teleport mechanics would really reduce the boring running through same rooms over and over again.

Order of Ecclesia does this the best. It has a Baldur's Gate style world map and a village that acts as a central hub. You can warp there with Town Cards that act like the Library Cards in Symphony. Then you can immediately exit the town and go to the world map location of your choice. Last, all the bigger locations have a teleporter next to the entrance. OoE has less tedious back and forth running than other Igavanias and it's still just as long.


-def level isn't high for any vania game after super4. Even SotN isn't that hard.

Again, I'm not sure what exactly you are saying here? Symphony is too easy, probably the easiest game in the series. Harmony of Dissonance and Aria of Sorrow get really easy too in the end, if you explore the whole castle. It wasn't until the Nintendo DS games that Igavanias got enough challenge.

Also, I would argue that Rondo of Blood and Dracula X are harder than Super Castlevania 4. I'm not entirely sure about Bloodlines, since it's been long since I played it.

-platforming in castelvania ? wut. I mean sure it is 2D game with platforms but that doesn't mean they are platformers. In fact DS ones vania games with added gimmick platform based stylus were worse than just lack of platforming in SotN

Are you saying that Classicvanias weren't platformers? :M Anyway, the series has its roots in platforming and, even though Igavanias are no longer trying to be real platforming games, the gameplay style still works like a platformer and platforming sections would be perfect to add some variety to combat and exploration. Instead of 3D gimmicks etc.

Most of the later Igavanias don't have much of it either but Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia have the most. For example, in Tymeo Mountains, Tristis Pass and the Clock Tower. In OoE you even have an entire (optional) dungeon that is pure platforming.

SotN is special because it is the first of chain of new vania games and rightfully is named the best new vania game but Dawn of Sorrow isn't really that much behind. Soundtrack wise i'd say DoS and SotN are about equal as both have some amazing tracks. Later PoR drops quality a bit and introduces way more backtracking that rest of the games in series and since it is a sequel to DoS it isn't interesting plot wise.

Yes, Symphony is special since it revamped the entire series. That obviously also means that they hadn't yet fully figured out how to perfect the Metroidvania formula since it was their first attempt. It is only natural that later games made improvements on it, even if they weren't as good in some ways due to the lack of production values and scope.

But I'm not trying to hate on Symphony here, I love the game. I just think it's unfortunate that everyone knows Symphony and everyone thinks it's a classic but a lot fewer people have played other Metroidvanias, both inside and outside the series. So they think that Symphony is the apex of the genre even though many games have made improvements on it later.

My second point is that games like Order of Ecclesia prove that Igarashi still has what it takes and isn't just some washed up old guy who made some great stuff 20 years ago and has no talent left.
 

Dev_Anj

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
468
Location
Auldale, near the great river
OoE has less tedious back and forth running than other Igavanias and it's still just as long.
I would dispute this. I replay Order of Ecclesia and Portrait of Ruin a lot and it invariably takes me less time to get through OoE than PoR, and that's without doing most of the side quest stuff in either game. A side by side comparison would show that OoE's levels are shorter on average, what with some levels being around 5-6 screens only like Ruvas Forest.

Most of the later Igavanias don't have much of it either but Portrait of Ruin and Order of Ecclesia have the most. For example, in Tymeo Mountains, Tristis Pass and the Clock Tower. In OoE you even have an entire (optional) dungeon that is pure platforming.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Only the clock tower areas of those games and the Training Hall have significant platforming challenges, ie. not getting jumps/moves right has significant consequences. If you're talking about jumps to get past areas or climb up and down levels, then Symphony had a lot of that too, it's just that it gives you the bat form a bit too early and the second half of the game is clearly not designed to be navigated just through jumps and movement, forcing you to super jump and/or fly around in bat form.

Personally I'm fine with them getting rid of bottomless pits, I always found that a dumb concept in platformers. I still wish there was more consequence and more design around platforming and platforming abilities. The platforming in general could be made more engrossing too by giving more "weight" to your moves.

Igarashi still has what it takes and isn't just some washed up old guy who made some great stuff 20 years ago and has no talent left.
I agree. At the same time, I feel he needs to show more innovation. I feel that he stuck too close to the formula for the DS games, as much as I do like them. Well, I like PoR and OoE anyway. There's just so much more he could do with the formula if he were more risk taking.
 

Somberlain

Arcane
Zionist Agent
Joined
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6,202
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Basement
Specifics of what I said are disputable, of course, but the main point still stands: PoR and OoE are the last two real Castlevania games so they are the best measure of Igarashi's abilities.

I'd also like a bit of innovation, but not too much. After all, it's been 8 years since the last Igavania, so we aren't exactly drowning in these games. I'm also sure that time has done its job to Igarashi and he has gathered a lot of ideas in the meantime. Earlier games were released very close to each other (2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006 and 2008), so it was pretty legit to feel like the series was getting too formulaic back then.

Also, this is crowdfunded game so I'm not sure if they are willing to rock the boat too much, and they are kinda obligated to listen to fan wishes. That's probably not a problem, however, since Igarashi was doing that even before Kickstarter. For example, OoE has a female protagonist and a different (much, much better) art style compared to Dawn of Sorrow and Portrait of Ruin because of fan wishes.

DoS/PoR artwork:

320



latest


365


420

OoE artwork by Masaki Hirooka:

600


600


532

And Classic Igavania artwork by Ayami Kojima:

364


360


490


It would have been nice if they had gone with the Kojima/Hirooka style in Bloodstained but that might have been a deliberate change.
 

skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
Hirooka's artstyle is very good, it was a much needed change after the downright dreadful DoS/PoR art. Nothing will replace Kojima's extremely lavish style but Hirooka did a very good job.
 

Dev_Anj

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
468
Location
Auldale, near the great river
Ooh, didn't knew you played Castlevania skacky . A nice surprise to see you here.

Since we're on the subject of art, here's some fanart of the Portrait of Ruin duo sort of in the style of Ayami Kojima:

YkN9H8y.jpg


dzBW9PP.jpg

A8NRvfP.jpg

Needless to say, I drew none of the above. FinnishFlame is to credit for the last two sketches, and the author of the first piece is Daburoku.
 
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skacky

3D Realms
Developer
Joined
Mar 5, 2013
Messages
2,506
Location
The City
dunno lah
Here, here.

CXUhBrA.jpg

I was surprised to find that many sites listing Symphony of the Night art have the censored version instead. :decline:

Dev_Anj been a Castlevania fan since Rondo of Blood. I still play them from time to time though I've lost my DS somewhere.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,230
How come IGAs division of Konami shifted to the gameboy advance after SotN anyway? Rather the significant downgrade technologically, must have been frustrating to develop. It's surprising they're all good games despite the fact.
I guess SotN didn't do well financially? Because a PS2 Igavania would have been cool.

Oh well, every single one of them are good to great, and now we've got Bloodstained on the way.
 

Dev_Anj

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
468
Location
Auldale, near the great river
Might be because two of the three sketches you posted are shit tier.
Was not referring to my post, but Somberlain's there, where he talked about how the art changed a lot during the DS CVs. I don't give a shit about what you think about those sketches, I just found them cool personally. Besides, well it's obvious that they are still WIP, from the lack of coloring.

How come IGAs division of Konami shifted to the gameboy advance after SotN anyway? Rather the significant downgrade technologically, must have been frustrating to develop. It's surprising they're all good games despite the fact.
I guess SotN didn't do well financially? Because a PS2 Igavania would have been cool.

Most likely because at the time 2D platformers were considered "too old" for the next gen consoles by the powers behind them, Sony and Xbox. True story, Symphony itself had trouble getting released since Sony didn't want to publish any 2D platformers on their console. This is mostly just an educated guess though, don't take my word for it.
 
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tet666

Augur
Joined
Apr 13, 2012
Messages
396
Most likely because at the time 2D platformers were considered "too old" for the next gen consoles by the powers behind them, Sony and Xbox. True story, Symphony itself had trouble getting released since Sony didn't want to publish any 2D platformers on their console. This is mostly just an educated guess though, don't take my word for it.

Konami published SotN not Sony i doubt they even cared since there where a lot of other 2d games on their platform after all, Konami was allrdy an asshole company back then according to various people who worked with them at the time so if in doubt blame them.
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,230
Yeah, was gonna say, there was a bunch of 2D sidescrollers on PS1 and 2. And 2.5D games. Definitely all Konami's doing.
 

Dev_Anj

Learned
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
468
Location
Auldale, near the great river
there was a bunch of 2D sidescrollers on PS1 and 2.
Really? Was unaware of this. Any notable examples besides Symphony?

Also technically Igarashi's team did keep working on the next gen consoles of the time, it's just that they made different sorts of games there. Lament of Innocence and Curse of Darkness were made by Igarashi's team, remember?
 

Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,230
Well, I don't know if there's anything notable. They were your good typical 2D/2.5D sidescrollers sure, but nothing worth a recommendation as a shining example like SotN is...unless you're really into sidescrollers.

Metal Slug
Heart of Darkness
Hercules
Earthworm Jim 2
Valkyrie Profile 2
Viewtiful Joe
Abes Odyssey
Tomba/Tombi
Castlevania Chronicles
Megaman X4

And plenty more...

Nothing screaming classic best-of status. Although I thought G-Darius was a p.cool sidescroller shmup. One of few shmups I've ever actually liked enough to keep.

The first two PS consoles had huge libraries.
 
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---

Arcane
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
1,724
Location
Italy
My god, that location sucks.
And the animations are still pretty horrible.
 
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Ash

Arcane
Joined
Oct 16, 2015
Messages
6,230
Definitely needs work. But it's gonna look shitty as it simply isn't complete yet. They need to find a way to make those platforms more subtle though. Or not more subtle, but more sensible and believable. Since they stand out so much and are clearly not non-interactive background, why not add variance? Add balconies, broken parts of buildings to jump on, pillars, stacks of boxes.
God I hate this aspect of all Igavanias. the environment is merely repeating platforms, rather than serving as gameplay itself. Of course that's an exaggeration as they do plenty with the environment, but not enough in my opinion.
 

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
I think you're actually supposed to be jumping on balconies and broken rooftops there, they just...all look the same. And not very good. Obviously a work in progress, but I'm not sure this is what they'll change. Collapsible terrain could be made a little less conspicuous. In some entries, it made sense because a fall meant death and you need to be able to avoid, or at least anticipate it. A fall in the SOTN style doesn't usually have much of a consequence, unless you land on a monster or trap. A few surprises here and there, where you need to make a quick decision is lots of fun.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,810
People wanted 2D metroidvania. Got 3D meh.
Hopefully at least gameplay will be good.
 

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