From Software Bloodborne. Discuss or die!

[waterdeep]

whirligig saw is the thinking man's weapon

 

[DragoFireheart]

whirligig saw is the Man's weapon

FTFY

 

[Silva]

whirligig saw is the thinking man's weapon

Indeed..

 

[Hyperion]

Finished The Old Hunters finally. What a ride. Without a doubt the most difficult, and infuriating of all Souls content put out. My opinion may be a bit skewed because I tried it as soon as I killed Amelia. I went in at 40, ended up killing Orphan at exactly level 80. Oddly enough, I struggled against the Orphan using the Whirligig, and beat him on my first attempt using the untransformed Holy Moonlight Sword. A charged R2 just takes too damn long with the Saw, and he's one of those bosses that's really easy to get behind. Think I parried him 3 or 4 times throughout the course of the fight as well, and even played like dogshit - got greedy, lots of bad reads on his attacks and whatnot. Difficulty of bosses based on time of openings, bullshit mechanics, and personal number of deaths, I would go... (from hardest to easiest)

Laurence > Ludwig > Double Street Sharks > Orphan > Failures > Maria

on an enjoyment level...

Ludwig > Orphan > Maria > Laurence > Failures > Double Street Sharks

Screw the street sharks. Screw their uber delayed attacks, screw their infinite combos, screw their stupid yelling, screw that bullshit charge, screw them with their own anchor.

Unfortunately, this has made the rest of the game an absolute bore, as I just used the DLC Blood Rock to get the Whirligig to +10, which now has something like 520 AR with mediocre gems, while the Holy Moonlight Sword in my 2nd slot has like 490. A single 4-hit R1 Combo from the Whirligig brought the Tonitrus Shadow of Yharnam from 100 to 0 before he could move, and the fight was over in under a minute. Were I to do it again, the best time to do everything would probably be right before, or after Mergo. Unfortunately, this means playing the majority of the game without the weapons that are actually fun, which means suicide runs are in my future.

In between trips into the DLC, I would take a break and do a Chalice Dungeon. I hear they're supposed to get really challenging, but the first 3 were a snoozefest, and made me not wanna continue. Just like my first playthrough in the game. Killed a couple of the bosses (some Beast that shot fireballs, some Hunter with a Witch hat that shot fire?) without even getting hit. Merciless Watchers are a joke. The Whirligig's Running R2 is a guaranteed stagger against them, while the Dashing R1 moves at the speed of sound. Charged R2 pancakes pretty much everything. God, that weapon is so damn good. I can't imagine playing BB without it anymore, to be honest. I absolutely refuse to build as Dexfag. It's just against my nature. Were I to play again, I could see myself trying out a Strength / Tinge build and seeing what all the fuss is with Guns, and maybe using the Bloodletter. Brador certainly stomps balls with it.

P.S. - Heh, how about The Forlorn just being a complete ripoff of Brador. Fuckin' From just can't do a single unique thing anymore.

 

[Gentle Player]

P.S. - Heh, how about The Forlorn just being a complete ripoff of Brador. Fuckin' From just can't do a single unique thing anymore.

I don't have a problem with recurring motifs, as long as they are good in the first place. It's no different in any other medium. You would be surprised at how so many allegedly original elements of Demon's Souls and the first Dark Souls were actually taken from FromSoft's PS1 games decades earlier.

On a similar note, I myself was astonished to hear that the exact same distinctive gurgling sound effect of the hollows in Dark Souls II's Huntsman's Copse was also present in an obscure PS2 game, Kuon, by From Software.

 

[Jaedar]

Borrowed a ps4 from a friend and started playing this.

Died like 3 times to the first werewolf, gascoigne took a dozen tries. It's hard 2 git gud. Parry timings are waaaay more generous than in souls, but otoh can't block so they kinda have to be.

Game feels sadly linear right now though. Or maybe I've just missed all the entrances to optional paths.

Also, estus > blood vials. Such a weird step back.

 

[Elwro]

It's kinda linear in the beginning, agreed. Later there are some options.

 

[Hyperion]

Died like 3 times to the first werewolf, gascoigne took a dozen tries. It's hard 2 git gud.

Once you're used to the differences from a Souls game, Bloodborne's OC is actually painfully easy, save 4 - 6 encounters. The speed of sidestepping, Rally, and quick stamina regen are very easily exploited to make most of the game a cakewalk. And I typically play heavily armored, Great Weapon + Shield builds in Souls. Most of its praise comes from its excellent presentation. The Old Hunters is a massive step up in density of quality content and difficulty. In all honesty, the best content From ever created for the series. Even better than DS2's DLC.

 

[Jaedar]

Also, estus > blood vials. Such a weird step back.

I'm probably the only one around here that dislikes the estus system. But, I think I understand the idea behind both designs. DS can punish bad play more with the estus -> you play poorly -> you lose health -> have to utilize estus knowing you don't get more unless you reset the world. BB, on the other hand encourages aggresive play and more risk taking because the vials are plentiful, you can always get more from drops without reseting the world and they heal quite a bit right off the bat. This encourages more risk taking and combined with the rally system rewards trading blows and being on the offensive. Also, the blood bullet system, while in theory would be a more strategic decision with the estus system, I belive in practice most people wouldn't use them for the cost of an estus flask.

Perhaps in theory. In practice, I find myself buying blood vials quite a bit, because I use a lot of them.

Blood bullet system is interesting, but at least the guns I have tried have been pretty bad in terms of damage.

Rally system is pretty cool, but I also find that it trivializes some enemies, because you can just mash attack and if you happen to trade a hit its k, cause you'll regen to full on their corpse anyway. Only really applicable for the smaller enemies, but that's still a lot of them.

Also, would someone tell me if chalice thingies are worth doing? I remember hearing some pretty bad stuff about them before but I'd the final kkk so to say.

 

[Hyperion]

For Chalice Dungeons, I'd say go all or nothing. For the most part, you have to do the early ones to get the materials required to create the later ones. But the easy ones are so trivial it gets very boring very fast. Especially if you don't do them immediately after getting them. Even then, the only point of doing the later ones is if you plan on going on to NG+ and beyond for the absolute best Blood Gems. Or just want to maximize the fuck out of your AR.

At 99 Str / Skl, with all top tier gems Ludwig's Holy Blade has about 1,100 AR. Take away from that what you will.

 

[Ivan]

every time I come here, I secretly hope to find a leaked Bloodborne 2 announcement video, but alas it's more Chalice Dungeon bullshit. e3 can't come soon enough

 

[Silva]

Don't forget the Hintertombs Chalice is totally skipable. I'm on my 6th or something playthrough and only cleared it the first time.

 

[Jaedar]

D_X exclusive bosses makes me interested enough to give it a good shot. Thanks.

 

[Gentle Player]

I actually found the Chalice exclusive regular enemies to be more interesting. There are some real nasty critters down there.

 

[Silva]

every time I come here, I secretly hope to find a leaked Bloodborne 2 announcement video, but alas it's more Chalice Dungeon bullshit. e3 can't come soon enough

Mark my words: next From game wont be BB2, it will be a Blame! inspired sci-fi the same way Dark Souls was a Berserk inspired dark fantasy.

Spoiler

At least I hope so. Been reading the manga and having a blast lol

 

[Silva]

After another playthrough, I have a new theory:

The Moon Presence is Oedon.

Follow me:

The note on Oedon Chapel says "the byrgenwerth spider keeps our lost master from us and hides all manner of rituals". So the master cited is Oedon (because the note is on it's chapel, maybe it was the old hag who wrote it), and the spider is Rom. We know Rom is functioning as a dreamcatcher at that lake, blocking all manner of rituals and keeping Yharnam safe. So what happens when we kill Rom? Well, it unleashes the Moon, allowing it to draw close, as well as Oedon, who goes out impregnating women in town.

We know Oedon has "inadvertent followers" who are constantly seeking precious blood, Oedon's "essence". What happens when the Moon Draws close? Yeah, everybody in Yharnam who have been consuming blood (it's "inadvertent followers" ) go rampant for blood. Notice the similarities? When the Red Moon (Moon Presence) draws close the separation of man and beast goes blur, and when Oedon is unleashed, it's followers go after precious blood. It's the same fucking thing! It's the beastly sourge explained right here, only in different angles.

But what da fuck is that monster we face in third ending coming out of the moon? That's Oedon manifestation or avatar. Oedon is "formless, existing only in voice" (and blood) so all this time he intended to acumulate enough blood echoes to materialize himself. That's the contract between the Moon Presence and Lawrence and his associates (they bring blood echoes to the Great One, the Great One them the dream-tech arsenal that's the Hunter Dream so they can fight the scourge in the waking world). Notice how the moon presence looks unfinished with those open ribs? That's because Oedon didn't have time to acumulate enough blood and complete it yet.

Ok, I'm tired and lazy so it sounded half-baked. But if you think about it, it's a possibility.

 

[Hyperion]

http://bloodborne.wiki.fextralife.com/Moon+Presence+Lore+by+Rakuyo

Ctrl + F Nyarlathotep. Some nerd beat you to the Moon Presence = Oedon theory, but used a different deduction by directly comparing him to the Lovecraftian Outer God.

 

[Silva]

Ouch, so my drunk babble is an actual hypothesis?

I think everything is Oedon, or rather the fucker is behind everything. Personally, I don't believe any of the aliens we meet is a real Great One rather failed experiments, with the exception of the Doll which is actually Oedon (disembodied voice inhabiting an inanimate object bringing it to life) and he/she/xir/it masterminds the whole fucking shitshow to sort of loophole the "every Great One loses its child" clause by finding a Hunter strong enough to ascend.

Cool theory! And pretty possible too. That doll is weird as fuck.

 

[Hyperion]

Wasn't The Doll Gehrman's creation made in the likeness of Maria with the specific intention to combat his crippling (heh) loneliness and comes to life only in The Hunter's Dream?

That would place her being made sometime after the Dream, so I don't think she can be Oedon.

Speaking to her after killing Maria hints to the player she has gained some sort of autonomy at the expense of Maria's life. Perhaps this is something akin to her absorbing Maria's soul, or the like?

She's the embodiment of perfect maternity - she allows you to grow and nurtures you from the moment you recognize her existence. She cares for you when you become a slug and aconowledges her unconditional love for you even if you kill her.

This of course makes her everyone's perfect waifu, as was Gehrman's own intention - to give form to his unrequited love for Maria. If she has ties to Oedon, it would probably be that she was made by Gehrman through Oedon (maybe he evwn fabricated Gehrmans feelings for Maria?) with the intention of guiding a Hunter to Great One aacendancy. So maybe not Oedon per se, but rather a proxy to finally get that Great One the child he wants so dearly.

 

[Hyperion]

I never quite understood the actual significance of the workshop, or why there's an umbilical cord in it.

Does the doll being in the Workshop negate the idea she had to be made before it? Wouldn't she need to exist in reality before she can exist in the dream?

Does the one-third umbilical cord have something to do with Gehrman and Maria? Did the Moon Presence impregnate her, which is really what set the old dude into depression, or mania as the game puts it. Maria was never aware of Gehrman's infatuation so its doubtful he ever did anything to her...while awake.

Maybe the Doll was just added to throw the almost-pedo Japanese players a bone in a game that was almost entirely Western.

 

[CthuluIsSpy]

Isn't the hunter's nightmare the destination of any hunter who becomes a beast?
If so, and if Maria is in the nightmare, then wouldn't that mean she became a beast? Maybe Gehrman killed her, and became remorseful afterwards that he missed the chance to have kinky doggy style sex with his crush.

Daily reminder that console exclusives are cancer, and I am still butthurt that I can't play it on my PC.

 

[Talby]

All hunters end up in the Hunter's Nightmare eventually, it's basically their afterlife.

 

[Silva]

I never quite understood the actual significance of the workshop, or why there's an umbilical cord in it.

According to the cord's description, it was used by Laurence "and his associates" (probably Gehrman and other dudes) to beckon the Moon Presence and make a contract with it. As for the Dream's form, it may be linked to memories of the beckoners, or it may be the location where the contract was made, we don't know. I would go with the former, as Mensis Nightmare buildings look like nightmarish versions of Yahargul ones. Maybe the location is filtered by the beckoner's fears/hatred/etc.

The real mistery is the CONTRACT between Laurence/Gehrman and Moon Presence. What did it entail? What each part was supposed to do? I take Laurence and Gehrman asked for help against the scourge (and received a fucking dream-tech arsenal to fight it), but what did the Moon Presence asked? By the continuous flux of blood that hunters give to it through the doll, it seems that was what she asked (blood echoes), but it's all speculation.

Brador supposedly killed the first cleric turned beast and was driven mad by the experience (A Church Assassin, who killed his compatriots and wore their beastly remains as attire, going into hiding in the deeper cells of The Hunter's Nightmare. The Church provided him with a single, soundless bell of death to ensure their secrets would be kept.").

Brador seems a more complex case. Yeah, he ended up in the nightmare after being driven mad, but somehow the church found about it and made him into a dream-hopper assassin. The fucker uses his own bell of resonance to invade other dreams/nightmares/waking worlds to murder them. How the church managed to engender such a plot inside the nightmare is beyond me.

 

[Jaedar]

According to the cord's description, it was used by Laurence "and his associates" (probably Gehrman and other dudes) to beckon the Moon Presence and make a contract with it. As for the Dream's form, it may be linked to memories of the beckoners, or it may be the location where the contract was made, we don't know. I would go with the former, as Mensis Nightmare buildings look like nightmarish versions of Yahargul ones. Maybe the location is filtered by the beckoner's fears/hatred/etc.

The real mistery is the CONTRACT between Laurence/Gehrman and Moon Presence. What did it entail? What each part was supposed to do? I take Laurence and Gehrman asked for help against the scourge (and received a fucking dream-tech arsenal to fight it), but what did the Moon Presence asked? By the continuous flux of blood that hunters give to it through the doll, it seems that was what she asked (blood echoes), but it's all speculation.


Brador seems a more complex case. Yeah, he ended up in the nightmare after being driven mad, but somehow the church found about it and made him into a dream-hopper assassin. The fucker uses his own bell of resonance to invade other dreams/nightmares/waking worlds to murder them. How the church managed to engender such a plot inside the nightmare is beyond me.

What you need, are more eyes.

My take (not finished with game yet, slowly whittling away at depth 4 and 5 chalices.): great ones are sympathetic in spirit. They may ask for nothing in particular.

I think blood echoes to doll may just be a dream representation of what Maria was doing in reality, she seems to have a lot of blood based powers, and be a pretty skilled experimenter going by what's in the astral clocktower.

 

[Hyperion]

Brador supposedly killed the first cleric turned beast and was driven mad by the experience

Does the game tell you he killed the first Cleric Beast? I believe the description of his set only says he killed his friend who turned. This would be significant, because the first Cleric Beast is, in fact, Laurence, according to his skull. The Church probably then locked him up in order to conceal the horrors of the blood, and their experiments. They then gave him his own bell, which probably drove him insane, killing his old Church buddies.

The real mistery is the CONTRACT between Laurence/Gehrman and Moon Presence. What did it entail?

"The Third Umbilical Cord precipitated the
encounter with the pale moon, which beckoned the hunters
and conceived the hunter's dream"​

is the latter part of the Umbilical Cord's description found in the workshop. Whoever this Umbilical Cord belong to was the final one needed to call on the Moon. Personally, I think it belonged to Maria, as it's found next to the Plain Doll...

It was most certainly Laurence who called on the Moon Presence. Laurence and Willem both wanted mankind to rapidly evolve, but had a disagreement on how to pursue it. Willem seemed to think filling his body with eyes would lead to this, possibly because Rom, a spider, had so many eyes.

Laurence was determined to try and make use of the Old Blood, but kept in his mind Willem's 'old adage' of "We are born of the blood, made men by the blood, undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open… Fear the old blood," in what is essentially the only CGI exposition in the entire game, which means it's prooooobably important.

In creating the Hunter's Dream, the Moon Presence essentially gifted immortlality to Gehrman and Bros (Ludwig was probably in on this too). After all, every time we die, we wake up right back in the Dream, able to continue our Hunt. Laurence however, had consumed the Old Blood and became a Cleric Beast and had to be put down, perhaps by Brador. Why was he in a persistent state of flame when every other beast in the game is terribly weak to it, though?

What did the Moon Presence want?

"It's said that all Great Ones lose a child and yearn for a surrogate"
​

If we consider the main definitions of surrogate mother...

1. A person who acts in the place of another person's biological mother.

2. An animal that is given another's offspring to raise.​

...and you get the hidden ending and kill the Moon Presence, who's the one 'raising another's (MP's) offspring?' The Doll... Perhaps Gehrman's elite tinkering skills (as seen from his ability to turn every day clothes into Hunter's Garb, and being the originator of trick weapons) is what proved most useful in setting up this surrogate agreement in exchange for mankind's "evolution" (immortality in the dream). However, it was Gehrman's depression (mania) that led him to make it in the likeness of Maria. Perhaps the question as to whether he though of Maria as a daughter, or his infatuation was romantic is a red herring - what matters is the doll's purpose, not her appearance.

This whole idea can be problematic if we consider one question,

"What caused Gehrman's mania?"​

Was he always depressed by nature of being a mad genius? Was it because Maria said, "Fuck this shit" and booked after the Fishing Hamlet stuff?
What if it because he found out that maybe she was impregnated by the Moon Presence? This is unlikely as none of the others impregnated seemed to survive the pregnancy, buuuuut she is distantly related to Annalise who's also pretty much immortal.
Finally, what if his depression was caused by the fact he saw all his bros turn to Beasts? This might skew the timeline of events to the point where we have no fucking clue what's going on again.


Also of note: killing Gehrman and the Moon Presence in the hidden ending leaves the Hunter's Dream intact...