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Blobbers: to puzzle or not to puzzle?

So how do you like your blobbers?


  • Total voters
    89

V_K

Arcane
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Nov 3, 2013
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Shit, now I feel the urge to replay Wiz7, never finished it back in the day. And Legacy.
Anyone can lend me a couple of years?

Start with VI (so you can get THE RING). Just do a VI>VII>VIII run through, it is incredibly rewarding. You might need to take a long break between games, as the random combat might start to grate on your nerves.
For that someone would have to lend me another life. :D
 
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aweigh

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edit: ah, cool. sorry, i whipped up this quick video of the games beginning to show you it, in case you hadn't played it.

 

Electryon

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I have Paper Sorcerer, but like many games, I've only dabbled in the first 10 minutes or so to get a general sense of things. Besides being the Scanner Darkly of CRPGs, it's also clearly paying homage to Wizardry IV in the opening. A dark room with no light source, and the ability to summon a creature to fight for you in the initial stages certainly sounds familiar....
 
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aweigh

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yeah but remember we're supposed to be brain-storming puzzles in the context of first-person dungeon-crawler rpg's. platforming in half life is not as divisive because the game is already predicated on the player's moter-skills and ability to use the controlling peripherals in fast ways with fast reflexes and a big component of that is the buildup of muscle memory which adds to the enjoyment of the game, in this case half life. going from running and shooting and crouching and running again and all sorts of kinetic displacement to jumping a few tiles in sequence is not a leap for the player, (pun not intended), nor is it a leap for the game (combo x2) regardless of the quality of its implementation.

it's not the same thing _at all_. rpgs are already a very burdened template upon which everyone from the players to the games' developers heaps their own interpretations of design and the dungeon-crawler sub-genre, if there is such a thing, (there is), is an even more lean and focused design. its foundation is derivative of other sources as well, such as roguelikes, and adventure games as well along with pen and paper gaming and lord knows what the fuck else. it's not as easy to throw in puzzles or other analogous activities in a blobber crawler (there are non-crawler blobbers); it IS easy to throw in platforming in an FPS.
 

Dorateen

Arcane
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Aug 30, 2012
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The Crystal Mist Mountains
Can you tell me what are some fun puzzles for you?

For me, I'd say something like Rattkin Ruins from Crusaders of the Dark Savant. Start to finish, basically obscure inventory item puzzles. Finding things in completely unrelated areas, and figuring out when you need to use such items. Sometimes it's obvious, a hole in the wall where a wooden dowel might fit. Sometimes, you could really be stumped until you experiment and try that featherweight potion.

Didn't see this before now. Funhouse was the least fun area in Wiz 7 IMO. Bloody Adventure game puzzles...<fzzzz!>

I always thought this was a hallmark of DW Bradley design. The Funhouse might be an extreme example, but this approach is found elsewhere throughout the game. Like in Orkogre castle, getting the ape to trigger the lever by enticing it with bananas... that can be purchased from the Innkeeper back in New City. Without providing any information to the player that they need to do this. There are examples in Cosmic Forge as well, and I think some instances of obtuse puzzles in Wizards & Warriors.
 

Electryon

Savant
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I always thought this was a hallmark of DW Bradley design. The Funhouse might be an extreme example, but this approach is found elsewhere throughout the game. Like in Orkogre castle, getting the ape to trigger the lever by enticing it with bananas... that can be purchased from the Innkeeper back in New City. Without providing any information to the player that they need to do this. There are examples in Cosmic Forge as well, and I think some instances of obtuse puzzles in Wizards & Warriors.

This is also the hallmark of many graphical adventure games, where you simply pick up anything that isn't nailed down and experiment with it until something clicks. In the best ones, most of the puzzles made some kind of sense, but even they had one or two that leave you thinking "how in the hell is anyone supposed to know that??" Or old Nintendo games that, unless you experimented for hours on end, seemed to almost REQUIRE a detailed guide from Nintendo Power to get you over the obscure nonsense that had been placed in as bottlenecks. It makes you wonder if games have actually gotten easier, or if developers over the years have realized that putting in, while not impossible, extremely obtuse paths to continuing in the game just isn't something people are really interested in anymore.
 

Norfleet

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Jun 3, 2005
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Actually, balance in life is how you accomplish absolutely nothing useful by being bad at everything. Go big or go home.
 
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aweigh

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i found a puzzle in wizardry 1! i can't seem to figure out how to not put a baseball bat through my monitor after just accidentally erasing the folder the game and emulator was in. It's quite a tough one! oh the pain is real. i deserve it though... i'm one of those people who always disable the recycle bin :(
 
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aweigh

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wiz 1 featured one merciless oversight by the designers that everyone always forgets: it wasn't until wiz 2 that they introduced the game rule of not allowing neither enemies nor PC's to cast spells in a Surprise round. lol they had gotten inundated with complaints from players when wiz 1 came out saying how their level 12 parties or whatever would be exploring the final floors and get surprise attacked by a bunch of bad fuckers who would start their free round on the player with a non-stop barrage of tiltowaits haha

of course all that said, i firmly believe wizardry-style combat resolution is almost perfect in its dumb simplicity; it achieves a definite layer of elegance in its quick resolution but always demanding thoughtful management of resources such as spells and hit points and items. the symbiotic co-existence between the very basic attributes of wizardry combat, mainly: spells, resistances, afflictions and melee; they all compliment each other concisely and efficiently and, while of course not without flaws; the combat mechanics are in the end plainly logical and the player is rewarded for manipulating the game's systems.

an additional layer that quite simply seeps into the crevices of the combat mechanics and transforms the ENTIRE combat ritual and its repetition into one of the most elegant and well thought-out skinner-boxes i've ever personally witnessed in terms of video game application. i am of course referring to the fact that every combat is worth fighting through because every combat rewards the player with treasure, and not only that but the treasure itself is random (obvious gambling philosophies/design at work, as they are in almost every single RPG/game of course) and not only is the treasure random but there is a second phase that happens after the player wins the encounter and the player is then logically not just fighting random encounters but rather he/she is "gaming the system"; what i call "phase zero" is the player's venture into the Maze and exploring it and mapping it. during this phase there is constant tension and fear of the unknown.

the first real phase, or rather the first instance in which the wizardry player starts to engage with the games mechanical parts occurs when they get an encounter while exploring. this tests the players knowledge of ALL of the game's facets and machinations and minutiae and there is a very strong random element in the conflict resolution (i.e. stuff like damage, resistances, etc) but it never feels out of the hands of the player.

once the player wins the fight we get a second phase of conflict resolution that is entirely psychological: the disarming of the chest. as all wiz players know the most likely way you get wiped is disarming a chest, NOT fighting enemies. but the loot is waiting and you want it (for many reasons besides the obvious ones, post is already too long to explain this point in detail); the sheer rush of excitement that overwhelms the player after the tension and fear of the second conflict phase is over is similar to the feelings the player experiences when he wins a tough fight but not in any palpable, legitimate parallel: no, the disarming of the chest was a stroke of sheer genius by the wizardry designers.

and of course there is still one more (not really, there are MANY more but anyway); there is one more phase after getting the loot inside the chest and that is of course the lottery; the skinner-box in play during amateur hour. it is no arbitrary coincidence that items must be brought back to town to be identified normally, and the only way to identify them inside the Maze is by mastering more and moreof the game's many gameplay elements:in this specificexample of course i'mreferring to creating advanced classes like a bishop. even that decision interweaves PERFECTLY with every single other element that is constantly in play during the gameplay phases of wizardry: the bishop is worthless as a melee attacker, he has poor ways to defend himself from enemy attacks, he levelsmuch too slowly to keep pace with the rest of the party and he will NEVER learn his spells "fast enough"to merit giving up a valuable spot in the team for a useless bishop. except of course now the party can extend the phase zero: now the player can explore further and the possibility of beating an encounter and disarming the chest and getting an item and then having the bishop ID the item and have it EXACTLY THE SWORDYOU WANTED means that now your Samurai can deal 2x as much damage as he could 10 minutes ago, i.e. before this last fight that yielded the super sword. no bishop would mean a long trip back to town with less resources (no sword, for example) and awaste of valuable gold in paying for the item's ID'ing. even something as simple as that, the item identification and its relationship with the bishop and the shop-keeper, is absolutely overflowing with ramifications interms of emergent gameplay.

man, i have so much more to say: like for example the fact that chests/loot is not tied to specific enemies or specific encounters but rather theymade the genius decision to have loot tiers drop depending on the FLOOR of the maze the party is exploring; this means that the scenario of grinding versus a specific group of monsters or one rare monster in the hopes of getting it to drop what you want DOES NOT EXIST IN WIZARDRY. instead the wizardry player knows that the best way to get better loot is to... VENTURE FURTHER INTO THE MAZE. the game ismotherfucking perfect.it's arock-solid formula for a video game. the player isALWAYS motivated to engage with the game's systems at every conceivable level of interactivity, both phyisical and psychological.

long live wizardry. i updated the wizardry thread with a ton of bonus content, yo guys should check it out :)

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...lopers-march-0116.105918/page-23#post-4407746
 
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