Blobbers: to puzzle or not to puzzle?

[V_K]

Coming from a discussion in this thread I wanted to ask our esteemed community what's their opinion on puzzles in blobbers (and blobber-likes) is? For me a blobber without puzzles just makes no sense - combat in this games is usually too basic and gets pretty tired pretty fast. But I am generally a puzzle-lover, Adventure/RPG hybrids being my farourite genre, so I might be biased. So what do you think?

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

It's all about the balance

 

[mondblut]

Don't mind puzzles that make sense, or are at least unique in their mechanics, but please, no more pressure plates, lever combos and crosswords-shaped dungeons

 

[pippin]

I just want to kill things.

 

[V_K]

I just want to kill things.

But aren't other subgenres better suited to fulfill that desire?

 

[pippin]

Yeah, but when I play blobbers I want to scratch that combatfag itch, the puzzles come second. Most of the time they are a welcome addition though. I guess my option is balance

 

[*-*/\--/\~]

Balance in all things, but still... everytime I walk into a puzzle in an RPG, I just think "why the hell would anyone build that thing"... :D

 

[TigerKnee]

I'm fine towards the side of "balanced" or combat being less frequent overall - it's pretty tedious smashing through 500 crap goblins while you're trying to explore a dungeon.

And if anyone is worried about losing the aspect of resource management then just make the mobs tougher to compensate for them being less frequent

 

[Scroo]

For me good dungeon design and puzzles goes hand in hand. The wizardry 1 approach of just grinding your way deeper and deeper is incredibly tedious imho

 

[Norfleet]

I don't mind either, but you know what's REALLY annoying? Trash combat while you're in the middle of a puzzle. The pointless interruption is just annoying. Don't do this. It's one thing if the combat is part of the puzzle, but it's another thing if it's just pointless combat after pointless combat while you're just trying to get to the other side of the thingy so you can push the button. It's ludicrous when there's a battalion of random goblins in a dead end. A thing like this might be overlooked when I'm just looking to kill shit, but it's goddamn annoying when I'm trying to DO SOMETHING.

 

[Hobo Elf]

A true dungeon tests the sharpness of your blade as well as your mind.

 

[CryptRat]

If it's real time then puzzles are a must and the main point of the game.
If it's turn-based then puzzles are a very good addition, but I can also play a turn-based blobber for its combat only (Paper Sorcerer, for example).

 

[Roqua]

I like the MMX handled puzzles and riddles. Generally, I think dungeon puzzles are fucking stupid. But I hate dungeon crawlers or any game that is a one trick pony. I like crpgs and that means real content, not fucking going back up five levels of a 15 level dungeon and stepping because you are now allowed to step on tiles in the right order.

 

[octavius]

Good puzzles are a must in real time blobbers, I think, since the combat is the weakest part of those games. And there is more room for using the environs as part of the puzzles in real time blobbers.
As much as I liked Dark Heart of Uukrul and Wizardry 5, I don't care for the most difficult, obscure Adventure game type puzzles in turn based blobbers.

But for both real time and turn based blobbers, what I really like is a good mapping challenge, especially if they are in three dimenions, like the entirety of Chaos Strikes Back, and parts of Uukrul, some of the Wizardry games and even Bard's Tale 3.

So none of the poll options really fit me.

 

[Dorateen]

I would prefer to see more riddles. With the player prompted to enter a response, not just pick from a multiple choice list.

 

[V_K]

As much as I liked Dark Heart of Uukrul and Wizardry 5, I don't care for the most difficult, obscure Adventure game type puzzles in turn based blobbers.

But for both real time and turn based blobbers, what I really like is a good mapping challenge, especially if they are in three dimenions, like the entirety of Chaos Strikes Back, and parts of Uukrul, some of the Wizardry games and even Bard's Tale 3.

Funny, I'm kinda the opposite - love me some Adventure-style puzzles but absolutely abhor mapping challenges.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

I don't mind either, but you know what's REALLY annoying? Trash combat while you're in the middle of a puzzle. The pointless interruption is just annoying. Don't do this. It's one thing if the combat is part of the puzzle, but it's another thing if it's just pointless combat after pointless combat while you're just trying to get to the other side of the thingy so you can push the button. It's ludicrous when there's a battalion of random goblins in a dead end. A thing like this might be overlooked when I'm just looking to kill shit, but it's goddamn annoying when I'm trying to DO SOMETHING.

THIS, THIS SHIT IS INFURIATING. I remember navigating some puzzle-dungeon in SMT:Nocturne and getting interrupted by combat encounters. One moment you are thinking how to get across some chasm, then random encounter kicks in and after that you are wondering what the fuck were you supposed to do. Fuck this shit.

 

[V_K]

I don't mind either, but you know what's REALLY annoying? Trash combat while you're in the middle of a puzzle. The pointless interruption is just annoying. Don't do this. It's one thing if the combat is part of the puzzle, but it's another thing if it's just pointless combat after pointless combat while you're just trying to get to the other side of the thingy so you can push the button. It's ludicrous when there's a battalion of random goblins in a dead end. A thing like this might be overlooked when I'm just looking to kill shit, but it's goddamn annoying when I'm trying to DO SOMETHING.

THIS, THIS SHIT IS INFURIATING. I remember navigating some puzzle-dungeon in SMT:Nocturne and getting interrupted by combat encounters. One moment you are thinking how to get across some chasm, then random encounter kicks in and after that you are wondering what the fuck were you supposed to do. Fuck this shit.

Personally I hate random trash encounters irrespective of puzzles.
(Bard's Tale, I'm looking at you!)

 

[octavius]

I don't mind either, but you know what's REALLY annoying? Trash combat while you're in the middle of a puzzle. The pointless interruption is just annoying. Don't do this. It's one thing if the combat is part of the puzzle, but it's another thing if it's just pointless combat after pointless combat while you're just trying to get to the other side of the thingy so you can push the button. It's ludicrous when there's a battalion of random goblins in a dead end. A thing like this might be overlooked when I'm just looking to kill shit, but it's goddamn annoying when I'm trying to DO SOMETHING.

THIS, THIS SHIT IS INFURIATING. I remember navigating some puzzle-dungeon in SMT:Nocturne and getting interrupted by combat encounters. One moment you are thinking how to get across some chasm, then random encounter kicks in and after that you are wondering what the fuck were you supposed to do. Fuck this shit.

AKA The Bard's Tale Experience.

 

[Cadmus]

I don't know, really. I hate the fucking plates/bullshit on the wall/teleports you gotta trigger in the correct order. Can you tell me what are some fun puzzles for you? I only remember some annoying shit or retarded shit akin to adventure games puzzles. Might be I hate puzzles. Fuck them I think.

 

[Dorateen]

Can you tell me what are some fun puzzles for you?

For me, I'd say something like Rattkin Ruins from Crusaders of the Dark Savant. Start to finish, basically obscure inventory item puzzles. Finding things in completely unrelated areas, and figuring out when you need to use such items. Sometimes it's obvious, a hole in the wall where a wooden dowel might fit. Sometimes, you could really be stumped until you experiment and try that featherweight potion.

 

[Roqua]

I don't know, really. I hate the fucking plates/bullshit on the wall/teleports you gotta trigger in the correct order. Can you tell me what are some fun puzzles for you? I only remember some annoying shit or retarded shit akin to adventure games puzzles. Might be I hate puzzles. Fuck them I think.

I completely agree with the puzzles you don't like.

For me, I'd say something like Rattkin Ruins from Crusaders of the Dark Savant. Start to finish, basically obscure inventory item puzzles. Finding things in completely unrelated areas, and figuring out when you need to use such items. Sometimes its obvious, a hole in the wall where a wooden dowel might fit. Sometimes, you could really be stumped until you experiment and try that featherweight potion.

See, I don't really consider these examples puzzles. If this is considered puzzles then I like these kind and see it as kind of a crpg staple still used today. Look at WL2 for instance, or AoD.

 

[V_K]

Can you tell me what are some fun puzzles for you?

For me, I'd say something like Rattkin Ruins from Crusaders of the Dark Savant. Start to finish, basically obscure inventory item puzzles. Finding things in completely unrelated areas, and figuring out when you need to use such items. Sometimes its obvious, a hole in the wall where a wooden dowel might fit. Sometimes, you could really be stumped until you experiment and try that featherweight potion.

Yeah, same for me - Adventure-style inventory-based puzzles are the best kind. Even better when they feed into the game's lore and/or PC's skills, but few games do that unfortunately.

See, I don't really consider these examples puzzles. If this is considered puzzles then I like these kind and see it as kind of a crpg staple still used today. Look at WL2 for instance, or AoD.

I haven't played WL2, but AoD literally tells you what item you need through the dialog, killing all the challenge. As I've said in another thread, a lot of AoD's encounters would in fact make great puzzles if they were using point-and-click interface and were less unforgiving (i.e. allowed for a second try). And from what I understand, they are making the thief path kinda like that in the next update.

 

[octavius]

I don't know, really. I hate the fucking plates/bullshit on the wall/teleports you gotta trigger in the correct order. Can you tell me what are some fun puzzles for you? I only remember some annoying shit or retarded shit akin to adventure games puzzles. Might be I hate puzzles. Fuck them I think.

Not exactly a puzzle, but one of my wow! moments in Chaos Strikes Back was when I was beset by four Chaos Knights and you could pull a lever to open a trapdoor under them if you timed it right. That would not kill them, but reduce them significantly. But, if you had also opened a trapdoor on the level below, you could kill them outright by pulling that lever, and find a heap of cursed armour two levels below. That's one reason why RPG are superior to Adventure games: there are more than one way to solve a problem.

 

[V_K]

That's one reason why RPG are superior to Adventure games: there are more than one way to solve a problem.

That's actually the main reason I'm playing RPGs and not Adventures, given my love for puzzles and indifference to combat. Some Adventures do allow multiple solutions, but they are rare.