Bioware's no-homosexuality rule in RPGs

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I realized this probably should not stay in the KOTOR 2 thread because it risks throwing it off topic.

Whether I'm gay has nothing to do with it.

In my opinion, if someone who is gay is playing an RPG and they are railroaded into RPing only heterosexual behaviors when the game has romantic elements, it's exclusionary. What if a heterosexual gamer was railroaded into homosexual romances by the design of some RPG? Same difference.

Imagine if Jolie the cranky old Jedi kept trying to cop a feel from a male Revan in KOTOR. Some heterosexual gamers would find it extremely offensive. I'm sure gay gamers also would find it extremely offensive if they're playing a male Revan and can't hit on the male Twilek in the Smuggler's HQ because Bioware has passed judgment on their sexuality.

On a total flip side, there are probably plenty of heterosexual male gamers who would like to have a female character in an RPG hit on a female NPC because they think lesbians are hot. Who cares?

My point is the game design is discriminatory, or at least exclusionary. I don't think your point about nudism is in the same ballpark. The nudity issue is a legal one in a way sexual orientation isn't. Indecent exposure is illegal, being a lesbian is not. I will say this though: I have no problem, personally, with nudity mods in "realistic" games like the Sims or Morrowind.

EDITS: Adds Quigs quote and a little more in the last line.

I think it would be good if RPGs had black people, when warranted, for example, if they're going for modern-day realism. Star Wars and Morrowind are fantasy settings with their own races. I'm not saying they should import Hispanics, Asians and others just because those people exist in the real world. I fully support artistic integrity. My argument is not that games need to fawningly over-represent U.S. minorities or the world's other races. You're setting up a straw man to attack.

if you support artistic integrity, then why the attacks on heterosexuality? Clearly they presented what they intended to.

Does this not already speak to that issue? Saying that I'm "attacking heterosexuality" also is another straw man.

EDIT: In other words, I'm sure there are plenty of people in bio's market, as you've described it, who want to see some hot chica-on-chica romancing.

We definitely need more hot lesbians in RPGs, that's for sure.

There you have it. And now I'm thanking VD for a sig.

3 posts in a row by yourself, and your response is a quote taken from your first post? You just wont stop going around in circles. Just answer the questions asked.

ahmen to that....i feel there is a serious lack of hot lesbian roleplaying in today's RPGs.

I think that having homsexuals in RPGs is gay

Quigs,

Those are largely posts copying your comments from the KOTOR 2 thread. I'm not a mod and can't move them otherwise. And I think I have answered your points so far. I support artistic integrity and I'm not attacking heterosexuality as you claim. I also don't think your target-market point holds up.

EDIT: That's because plenty of young white heterosexual males dig the lesbian thing.

What else have you got?

No counterpoint hurts as much as flat out denial. Really got me there.

Vault Dweller and PennyAnte seem to be the only ones thinking with their good head. HELL YES GIMME CHICK-ON-CHICK ACTION IN RPGS, FLANGDAMMIT!!

i think RPGS should adequetely reflect a realistic society. Minorities should be there, just...you know...as minorities. But it has to reflect the RPG world that the game creators are trying ot portray.

Star Wars has always been a sorta Idealized version of a space epic. You don't have people being blown or cut apart by lasers, you don't have the gruesume effects of sudden decompression, heroes and villians are clearly defined and their place in the world is just as clearly defined. It doesn't delve into the sociology implications of homosexuality or of racial tensions within spiecies. Star Wars focuses on the higher issues, such battles between good and evil and freedom versus tyranny.

Don't get me wrong, i'm all for hot steamy chick on chick action. But Star Wars has never been about those types of issues.

Quigs:

Where am I not giving you good counter points?

I have established that I support artistic integrity. I never said real-world races, for example, need to be imported into a fantasy game with its own set of races, like a Star Wars or Morrowind title. You said I supported having a game of "black queers" just because they exist in the population, even if the game is for white male heterosexuals. I simply never said anything like that.

I didn't attack heterosexuality anywhere. I just didn't. You said I did. What I did say is that plenty of young white male heterosexuals, which you say form Bio's target market, would probably dig the ability to have a female character hit on a female NPC. The accuracy of that comment is self evident, and is supported by posters here.

The only thing I'm saying is Bioware should let people do whatever they want (along gender lines) when there's a romance plot. To do so, in my opinion, increases player freedom and avoids being discriminatory, or at least exclusionary. At the moment, Bio's dialogue (in KOTOR) explicitly excludes those options.

EDIT: So again, what ELSE have you got?

Bloodlines obviously didn't have this. What a waste of good jiggletech.
Troika should do xpansion/sequel only for that.

The thing with homosexuality, is that it doesn't fit into cliched epic story line where a knight saves the day and wins a girl blah blah.... and I'm not sure what ESRB raters think of gays.

I agree that SW's themes have mostly been epic, not about something like homosexuality. But I think in an SW game, Bio can allow more player freedom and not be as exclusionary.

SW doesn't say anything about homosexuality one way or the other. It doesn't judge it good, it doesn't judge it bad. It's not referred to at all. But SW does have romance as a subtext (like Leia and Han Solo), and I think in a game, which is meant to offer an individual flexibility in areas like plot and the nature of their hero (stats, moral choices, etc.), that Bio could stand to offer a little more freedom. I'm just saying they should at least open the dialogue options so players can use them if they want.

I don't think that would make the game be "about" homosexuality.

That's probably where Bio is coming from. That and fear of getting sued by conservative groups in the U.S., or for getting negative publicity for "pushing the gay agenda," then having Wal-Mart drop their product.

I think that's weak, and a bad marketing strategy. Bio games have very clean, innocent romance plots that hint, at best, at mature situations. An overblown social reaction to having some of those plotlines allow for, say, three screens of lesbian dialogue would be ridiculous.

Furthermore, that's the kind of publicity that ultimately ends up helping a game sell, like all the negative buzz against violence in Grand Theft Auto titles. In the end, gameplay is what matters, and game companies also win big when they shrug off asinine social critics.

Somewhere where Troika is raising the bar.

Just out of curiosity, Penny, are you male or female?

I don't think fear of conservative groups is to blame for the dearth of gay NPC's in games. It's more like there aren't enough gay gamers to justify including a feature that very few would appreciate.

I wonder how many hetero gamers would roleplay as a gay character if given the chance, however. Perhaps more than we think.

And while it's true that gay love in epic tolkienesque stories appears odd to us, many classical epics, such as the Illiad and the Aeneid, feature homosexual-bisexual characters prominently.

I, for one, do NOT want anything gay in the games I play. I didn't have a problem with the way it was done in Fable, but any flagrant homosexuality pushed upon me (i.e. Cassius Curio - Morrowind) pisses me off and makes me want to vomit.

The whole Cassius Curio thing was kind of funny, but it made me feel so... naked..

That goes more to the cultural context of the times. When those works were written it wasn't frowned on for men and men to be lovers. It was, culturally, a non-issue.

"That's because plenty of young white heterosexual males dig the lesbian thing."

There you go. It has nothing to do with BIo being "homophobic". It's about their target audience. Bioware devs have explained their reasonings for stuff like this numerous times.

As for female on female. I'm all for that. Probably the reason why I can forgive BL for its numerous weak points.