Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Bioshock is too complex. Help!

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,024
You know why games suck today? Too many mechanics. They distract people from enjoying the next-generation graphics and ambiance. So, Gamasutra has cooked an article exploring this growing problem:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3 ... r_game.php

A recent trend in games is the ability of players to "play their own way." It's a design choice that includes more mechanics than any particular player will explore in a single playthrough.
WHAT A WASTE OF MECHANICS!

Even worse, most games penalize the player for misreading the system and making the wrong choice, if only to add an element of challenge. When challenges become difficult, too many choices in the form of too many mechanics only confuse and irritate.
Tyranny of choices!

BioShock is an example a great game whose giant mechanic set only weakens its play aesthetic. While the title's story and environment have set the bar for many games to come, there's just too much to do. In many a difficult situation players are left to decide between their guns, plasmid powers, hacking, stealth, and the use of one-shot items.
I can't believe this shit is real.

For example, including hardcore elements in a children's game is often dubious...
That explains Fallout 3 design.

Imagine an inventory system in the original Super Mario Brothers.
Thinking of poor dumb bastards getting confused by teh inventory system brought a tear to my eye.

It's actually scary that someone thinks that an inventory system is a "hardcore element". Have we reached the new dumbing down milestone?

Edit: The comments:

I'll say that I do agree some games try to push too much onto the player in the way of options. But personaly if I wanted an example of that I'd look to a game like Morrowind or Oblivion. Both are good games but figuring out what to do with yourself can be hard.
...
 

Gragt

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Nov 1, 2007
Messages
1,864,860
Location
Dans Ton Cul
Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin
Anyone care to send him the link to Dwarf Fortress or NetHack? According to these criterions, games like that must suck big time.

Reading stuff like that isn't good for my paranoia, now I start to see everywhere plots of governments, backed by the fbi chineses, to turn people around the world into mindless drones little by little.
 

fastpunk

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 31, 2007
Messages
1,798
Location
under the sun
Bioshock is complex?! Boy, I wonder what would they say about System Shock 2? Inventory, degradable weapons, skills and powers, upgrades... ZOMG! My next-gen brain is going to explode!

Vault Dweller said:
For example, including hardcore elements in a children's game is often dubious...
That explains Fallout 3 design.

:lol: VD, this one was pure gold. Dibs! This quote is going in my sig. :P
 

Dark Elf

Erudite
Joined
Mar 3, 2004
Messages
1,617
Location
Sweden
larpingdude14 said:
Imagine an inventory system in the original Super Mario Brothers.
lol. Super Mario Bros. 3 had an inventory system.

The magic flutes also made it non-linear. It didn't have a traditional hp system and the various suits/costumes/mushrooms/flowers enabled several different modes of play while not restricting the player to belong to any particular class.

I dub it the best RPG ever.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Jul 11, 2004
Messages
5,673
Kingston said:
I don't think there are facepalms big enough in the universe for this.

Oh-hoh, I beg to differ.

jesus_doh.jpg


The Lord of All Creation facepalming for the win!
 

pkt-zer0

Scholar
Joined
Jun 17, 2007
Messages
594
Vault Dweller said:
BioShock is an example a great game whose giant mechanic set only weakens its play aesthetic. While the title's story and environment have set the bar for many games to come, there's just too much to do. In many a difficult situation players are left to decide between their guns, plasmid powers, hacking, stealth, and the use of one-shot items.
I can't believe this shit is real.
This is fucking genius.
I can hardly wait for the games the future has in store for us. BioShock has little in the way of gameplay besides moving forward and roasting anyone and everyone, occasionally hacking a bot or a turret. The "Shooter 3.0" will just have you sitting in one place and emptying hundreds of magazines into the opposition advancing towards you in a straight line.

Human minds can only manage a small number of choices at any one time. Research shows that seven is the magic number of items we can handle at once. Game mechanics are no exception.
Interesting. Let's count, then.

In many a difficult situation players are left to decide between their guns, plasmid powers, hacking, stealth, and the use of one-shot items.
That's still only FIVE, you fucks.

God of War conveys a strong play aesthetic, centered squarely on brutal violence. The meat of this experience is fluid melee combat and how to master it. The Blades of Chaos exist solely to support the feel of flowing, sinuous battle.
"Mastering combat"? Square-square-square-square-square-square-TRIANGLE!
Argh.

Funny thing is that while I agree with the basic idea (putting everything and the kitchen sink into a game just because you can is bad), their examples for "excessive complexity" are utterly ridiculous.
 

mountain hare

Scholar
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
236
There is good complexity, and bad complexity. Good complexity adds to the immersion and enjoyment of the game. Bad complexity just adds to the tedium and frustration.
 

Lyric Suite

Converting to Islam
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
56,166
mountain hare said:
There is good complexity, and bad complexity. Good complexity adds to the immersion and enjoyment of the game. Bad complexity just adds to the tedium and frustration.

Care to post an example of a game with "bad" complexity?
 

mountain hare

Scholar
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
236
Lyric Suite said:
mountain hare said:
There is good complexity, and bad complexity. Good complexity adds to the immersion and enjoyment of the game. Bad complexity just adds to the tedium and frustration.

Care to post an example of a game with "bad" complexity?

Off the top of my head, the Sorcery spell system in Ultima 8.

Edit: Hidden and Dangerous 2's attempt to integrate strategic team AI was a total fuckup. Totally worthless complexity which killed my interest in the game.

The concept that 'Sometimes additional features can detract from the enjoyment of the game instead of add to it.' is not that hard of a pill to swallow.
 

mountain hare

Scholar
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
236
fastpunk said:
Bioshock is complex?! Boy, I wonder what would they say about System Shock 2? Inventory, degradable weapons, skills and powers, upgrades... ZOMG! My next-gen brain is going to explode!

Vault Dweller said:
For example, including hardcore elements in a children's game is often dubious...
That explains Fallout 3 design.

:lol: VD, this one was pure gold. Dibs! This quote is going in my sig. :P

The rapid degrading of weapons in System Shock 2 did detract slightly from my enjoyment of the game. Thankfully there is a patch for it.
 

DoppelG

Scholar
Joined
Feb 6, 2008
Messages
198
Location
My mind
Ugh, now i feel stupified after reading that. I seriously suspect them to deliberatly try and dumb down people, hell its easyer and more effective then making a complex game, aint it?
 

RK47

collides like two planets pulled by gravity
Patron
Joined
Feb 23, 2006
Messages
28,396
Location
Not Here
Dead State Divinity: Original Sin
i knew sonic is best played by just running, who needs to jump ffs.
 

Lord Chambers

Erudite
Joined
Jan 23, 2006
Messages
1,018
I tried reading the article because I thought people here were just reacting and not really thinking about the issues since it triggered some dumbing-down reflex, but for fucks sake, what a bunch of muddled bullshit.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom