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Best JRPGs

Gruncheon

Savant
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
125
I loved the idea of what Vagrant Story was *trying* to do, but the affinity system (esp having to maintain separate weapons for different enemy types) finally broke me while going through some repetitive forest area... it's probably the only jrpg that I stopped playing because "it's not you, it's me". Great atmosphere, though -- and yea, I was immediately reminded of it when I played Dark Souls 10 years later.

Yeah, I don't think anyone could make the claim that the system is actually good as is, more interesting for what it was trying to do. I'd love a game where there was genuine strategy and challenge to upgrading your weapons and this was aiming at that. I quite liked having to maintain different weapons for different enemy types, it encouraged you to muck around with the system much more than you would with other games. And, even if you sucked at the forging system, you could rely on using different chaining build to kill most bosses.

And the theme when you're just chilling in the forge, dismantling polearms, is great:
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Yeah, I don't think anyone could make the claim that the system is actually good as is, more interesting for what it was trying to do. I'd love a game where there was genuine strategy and challenge to upgrading your weapons and this was aiming at that. I quite liked having to maintain different weapons for different enemy types, it encouraged you to muck around with the system much more than you would with other games. And, even if you sucked at the forging system, you could rely on using different chaining build to kill most bosses.

And the theme when you're just chilling in the forge, dismantling polearms, is great:


8 characters. Just 8 characters. That's all this game needed to tell a fucking awesome story. No wonder most jRPGs fail: most of their stories are convoluted messes of 20+ characters and locations/empires you never see.

Fuck, I remember wanting a remake or sequel back when I first played this game, but now I realize the game is best left as it is, untouched, untainted.

Curious how

DO NOT OPEN
only the woman and the child survive, and Ashley of course

Fucking masterpiece.
 

Valky

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Aug 22, 2016
Messages
2,418
Location
Trapped in a bioform
I'm currently replaying Golden Sun. Still my favorite JRPG of all time. What other games are very similar to it? (Battle mechanics, overworld interaction with puzzles, etc)

I cri evrytiem Golden Sun 4 isn't announced. DD was not an acceptable end to it.
 

Karellen

Arcane
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
327
I feel like I ought to expand a bit on the unusual balance of mechanics that Vagrant Story has, because I think it's somewhat revealing about some of the peculiarities of design relating to jRPGs. So, a wall of text it must be, and a wall of text it shall be:

The thing about Vagrant Story is that it's basically "Fuck You: Suck My Dick: Yasumi Matsuno's Personal Dream RPG Experience", or at least a good half of it before someone told him to actually finish the damn thing. This isn't so strange when you think about it - Square after Final Fantasy VII had, I assume, a preposterous amount of money, so they could authorise all kinds of projects and let their directors have bizarre fever dreams like Xenogears and Chrono Cross. If you think about it, it's not that dissimilar from the sort of managerial laxness that allowed the creation of Fallout and Planescape: Torment at Interplay, except that Square had a lot more money.

Anyway, all Yasumi Matsuno's games have complex and fiddly subsystems that are very difficult to fully comprehend but, if fully grasped, allow the game to be broken apart like a twig. This is not, necessarily, a failure in design - my understanding is that this is the way Matsuno likes it, and because Vagrant Story is a game where Matsuno was, to a large extent, running wild, it encapsulates this philosophy particularly well. So the weapon growth and crafting in Vagrant Story is downright byzantine - the way blade combining works defies logic because in a lot of cases it's utterly arbitrary, and even the growth system, which actually has a system, has a ton of fiddly parts that have a surprising amount of impact. Not only that, if you have no idea what you're doing, it's actually very easy to end up with weapons that are just plain not very good. I know that the first time I played Vagrant Story, probably one in three bosses I couldn't do any proper damage against with normal attacks, and I have very fond memories of trying out various break arts in the Giant Crab's mouth to somehow do more than 1 HP with an attack.

So this is where we get to the issue of crutch mechanics in jRPGs. Vagrant Story is a difficult game, in the sense that it requires a great deal of knowledge to play well, and learning those things by trial and error requires a considerable effort. Basically, the system is so complex that it would be unreasonable to expect players to get the system fully the first time they play; on the other hand, because Vagrant Story, like basically all jRPGs of its era, is also a narrative game, stonewalling the player and forcing them to restart is not an option. So what Matsuno did with Vagrant Story was not dumb down its immense stat-o-rama, but instead, like I said before, he introduced an alternative system by which you could scrape by even if you didn't understand the crafting system. This, by the way, is one point in which Vagrant Story resembles Dark Souls; the system is so complex that the player is expected to fail to some degree, and arguably that's part of the intended experience. It's just that Vagrant Story, instead of killing the player restarting them from a check point (which wouldn't really help in Vagrant Story, since the key mechanic is in preparation) lets the player push through bosses using items and chain abilities, but in a way that feels cumbersome, so the player is encouraged to try and do better and create more successful weapons for the next boss.

I think my point is that it is specifically because jRPGs have crutch mechanics that some of the more interesting jRPGs can have such arcane and complex (and occasionally fun) subsystems: grinding, which is a kind of crutch mechanic in many jRPGs, is there to establish in firm terms that the player won't be stonewalled, which, essentially, frees them to experiment with whatever obfuscated and only partially informed character development system the game happens to have. On the other hand, success at using the system well manifests in the player not having to resort to using the crutch mechanic. From this point on, an important point in jRPG design is to balance the two mechanics in such a way that learning to play the game well is rewarding, but without making the punishment for failure too tedious. I suspect that, overall, the ideal level of difficulty for a jRPG is one that occasionally pushes the player to the point that they have to use a crutch mechanic, because this keeps the player on their toes while reminding them that they can make up for failures. In a game that can be around 80 hours long, this is much better than expecting full understanding of the system of the player.

This segues nicely (I think) to what MRY was saying earlier:

One dumb thought I've always wondered about -- something that jRPGs kind of do with how XP rewards and XP level thresholds scale, but in an indirect way -- is whether you could have a system where, upon reaching some checkpoint n, you automatically are raised to level L.n, with L.n being the level at which reaching checkpoint n (typically navigating a dungeon and beating its boss) would be easy to do without intelligent tactics/good luck. This would mean that the reward for completing the dungeon would increase the more efficiently you completed it, and decrease the more you grind. You'd never be leveled down at the threshold, so you could always overshoot the mark and start the next segment with a bit of a boost, but it would avoid the scenario where a player who skips grinding during segment n to n+1 will probably need to grind at least a little between n+1 and n+2.

I'm sure there is some reason why this is a bad idea, or perhaps it's already covered by the XP scaling point above, but it seemed kind of neat to me.

I think the difficulty with this approach - which is not an insurmountable one - is that an XP level is not a sufficient measure of a character's power in a lot of jRPG. Instead, power is a sum of equipment, consumables and long-term character development choices (plus the player's tactical ability). So it might prove difficult to establish a decent "miminum threshold" to upgrade the player to once you pass through a checkpoint, particularly in a way that doesn't downplay the importance of various character development choices and the meticulousness of the player's exploration and so on - basically, the long-term considerations of what the player does while playing an RPG. I do think this kind of system would work very well in a tactical RPG in which the main course is a linear series of combat encounters, which (one would presume) would have an easily identifiable sweet spot in terms of difficulty. As it is, character development in Valkyria Chronicles is largely a fig leaf to make a wonderful tactical puzzle game just count as an RPG, and it's still a really good game, so I think this sort of system would suit a game like it very well. For jRPGs that aren't about tactical encounters and more about elaborate character systems, though, I suspect that a character growth mechanic that distracts from the feeling of long-term growth and pay-off from good character development decisions might end up interfering with an important element of what makes the game engaging.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
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Messages
14,022
Location
Platypus Planet
Fuck, I remember wanting a remake or sequel back when I first played this game, but now I realize the game is best left as it is, untouched, untainted.

It was supposed to have a sequel but Square said no. That's why the game ends in a cliff hanger. Actually, the subtitle for Vagrant Story was The Phantom Pain and that was supposed to be the first chapter in what Yasumi Matsuno was setting up to be a trilogy iirc.
 

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
I I think the difficulty with this approach - which is not an insurmountable one - is that an XP level is not a sufficient measure of a character's power in a lot of jRPG. Instead, power is a sum of equipment, consumables and long-term character development choices (plus the player's tactical ability). So it might prove difficult to establish a decent "miminum threshold" to upgrade the player to once you pass through a checkpoint, particularly in a way that doesn't downplay the importance of various character development choices and the meticulousness of the player's exploration and so on - basically, the long-term considerations of what the player does while playing an RPG. I do think this kind of system would work very well in a tactical RPG in which the main course is a linear series of combat encounters, which (one would presume) would have an easily identifiable sweet spot in terms of difficulty. As it is, character development in Valkyria Chronicles is largely a fig leaf to make a wonderful tactical puzzle game just count as an RPG, and it's still a really good game, so I think this sort of system would suit a game like it very well. For jRPGs that aren't about tactical encounters and more about elaborate character systems, though, I suspect that a character growth mechanic that distracts from the feeling of long-term growth and pay-off from good character development decisions might end up interfering with an important element of what makes the game engaging.
To be honest, the gap between us on this is probably a function of my having jumped off the jRPG train at a time when the majority of the jRPGs available in the U.S. featured relatively linear and defined progressions for party members: each character has a class that gets such-and-such skills at such-and-such level, for the most part each town or dungeon introduced a better version of each part of each character's gear, etc. And many times the party composition was fixed. To be sure, there were exceptions, but to me the sort of baseline norm is something like PSIV or FFIV, where it is relatively easy to measure character power by two axes (level [which defines stats] and plot progress [which defines gear]).

To give an example of how the system would(n't?) work. Suppose the plot says, "Since ancient times, the soul of the world was held in a single gem, which kept the elements in order and life in harmony. In the Dark Years, the gem was cracked by the demon Malefesus, but the Heroes of Light defeated the demon and prevented the gem's destruction. Now, for reasons none understand, the gem has shattered into eight shards, scattered across the world. Chaos emerges, and dark forces arise..." The game has eight choke points (each shard) that happen in more or less order, though you have openness between the shards. Each time the player gets a shard, all the party members advance in class (so each party member has eight stages), restarting at level one. Each new class has new stats, new abilities, and new primary gear. The effect of this would be that between Shard n and Shard n+1, the player is advancing within a class, and can level and gather gear to his heart's content, but when he gets Shard n+1, the only benefits that carry over are secondary gear, gold, and the value of the primary gear that he can sell. Gold would be generally given low value in the game, as is pretty typical in jRPGs. It seems to me that this would mean that players could grind if they had trouble with the tactical aspects, but players who mastered the tactical aspects and pushed their luck (successfully) would be on equal footing after each gem was collected. Isn't this akin to what you're talking about with chaining in VS, only the fallback system isn't combos but grinding?
 

Damned Registrations

Furry Weeaboo Nazi Nihilist
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
15,010
For the record, if VS capped the combos at say, 6 swings (and got rid of the immortality defensive move), I'd be fully on board with it's crazy systems. But the combos (especially with the risk based damage attack) break the game so hard that it renders everything else trivial. You can have the worst weapon and armour in the game and still defeat the final boss with 10 hit combos. It's fucking inane.

Mind you, even with the cool subsystems, it'd still be a fairly crap game in my mind. Combat is fucking endless and slow, it requires way too much backtracking, has the awful UI with slow menus and too much loading, and contrary to what everyone else seems to think, the plot is some pretty generic amnesia based garbage with a cartoon villain. The only thing the game really did well was the atmosphere- the enemies and environments all fit together pretty well.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Mind you, even with the cool subsystems, it'd still be a fairly crap game in my mind. Combat is fucking endless and slow, it requires way too much backtracking, has the awful UI with slow menus and too much loading, and contrary to what everyone else seems to think, the plot is some pretty generic amnesia based garbage with a cartoon villain. The only thing the game really did well was the atmosphere- the enemies and environments all fit together pretty well.

Not even close to the most interesting aspects of the plot.
 

Siveon

Bot
Joined
Jul 13, 2013
Messages
4,509
Shadorwun: Hong Kong
I'm currently replaying Golden Sun. Still my favorite JRPG of all time. What other games are very similar to it? (Battle mechanics, overworld interaction with puzzles, etc)
Aside from those mentioned I got a very similar vibe from Wild Arms 1 & 2. Even the overworld graphics are a little similar.
 

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
Mechanically, Shining the Holy Ark is the only comparison. Made by the same team who made Golden Sun when they were still part of Sega. Has to be played on a Sega Saturn emulator. First-person camera, automapping, good puzzles, lots of little secrets, combat is sufficiently challenging for a JRPG. Class system is less complex though, each character gets 1 upgrade at level 20 which sets them back down to level 1 with no loss of stats.

Biggest difference is the game uses 'Pixies' instead of Djinn. Rather than equipping them to a particular character, at the start of the battle you have the chance to send a group of pixies to do decent damage to all enemies on the screen. The fun little feature is they can only hit an enemy depending on the direction from which they entered the battle. If they crawled out of a hole, or out of the ground, Leprachauns need to be chosen and used in the second or two before combat initiates. From the left, you have to use Succubi, from the right Incubi, Pixies if they charge you from afar, and Fairies if they come from above, or from the top of a ceiling.

Game had a pretty good atmosphere. Forests and caves were creepy, Tower of Illusion felt like a badass adventure (and what an adventure it was). Soundtrack was excellent, and you could tell it was way before Motoi Sakuraba started mailing it in for games. Dungeons were extremely well designed, varied from moving tiles, to spinning you around, to defying gravity and walking on the fucking ceiling to bypass holes and barricades. One dungeon even required you fall through a hole while on the ceiling to reach the 'top.' Most generally took 2 - 3 attempts to finish, especially if you looked for every bit of loot, due to MP or inventory constraints. There's a hidden character that you probably will not find under ANY circumstances without checking every single spot of every single area or checking the internet. The game tells you the % of the treasure you found at the end. 97% is the highest I have ever found. I haven't seen anyone with 100% yet.

Imo, Camelot's crowning achievement (this includes Golden Sun 2 which is a classic in and of itself), and pretty much the pinnacle of turn-based JRPG's, but is a lost classic due to being on a shitty console and competing against Final Fantasy 7. With the rebirth of Wizardry clones, this game *needs* a console, or Steam rerelease to get its name out there. It's that damn good.
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Never advance much more than the first pile of box in Vagrant Story. Shit was so boring.

Daily reminder this fucker thinks FFVIII (8) is the best Final Fantasy because FFVII is "too blocky" and FFIX is "an experiment gone wrong".
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,150
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Dont forget: best because of gameplay mechanic. FF8 story is so-so. Pioneer for its age (school-age heroes) but not that special otherwise.

FF7? Yeah, guilty as charged. I aint touching that rectangular block graphic.
FF9? Changing point of view AND changing that character's equipment with another character's inventory setting? Experiment, it is. No forewarning, not cool.

Caution: I havent even touch anything beyond FF10 so anything later than ff10-2 is uncharted territory for me.
 
Self-Ejected

aweigh

Self-Ejected
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
17,978
Location
Florida
MRY

regarding your checkpoint-level-ups idea, that is exactly how Wizardry 4 is structured.

there are 9 levels and a hidden 10th level in Wiz 4 and Werdna gains no experience points for combat nor can he directly control his summons (i.e. party members). Werdna automatically advances 1 level on every floor he conquers. Werdna also can't equip the majority of the loot in the game and can only scavenge and use a small portion of the game's loot to survive/advance.

This is why Wiz 4 is simultaenously the most un-Wizardry-ish Wiz game ever developed (no xp from combat, no focus on loot, etc), and at the same time it is also the most experimental and "progressive" of all Wizardry games and I dare say, probably 99% of all RPGs even since then. It's also the hardest turn-based rpg I can think of, and probably the hardest RPG ever made.

EDIT: not because of the elements I just mentioned, it is hard because the devs intentionally set out to make it hellishly difficult. I bring it up because it utilizes the closest thing you'll find in an RPG to the systems you mentioned. Plus because this thread has far too much talk of Vagrant Story and needs more talk of better RPGs.

BTW, started playing COSMIC STAR HEROINE today (steam/ps4/vita) and it is the JRPG-throwback that "I Am Setsuna" desperately wanted to be! If you want to play a true "love letter to JRPGs" and were disappointed by Setsuna, go get COSMIC STAR HEROINE right now.

P.S. Whoever mentioned Shining the Holy Ark gets +1000 kodex kool kredits. It is indeed a very worthy blobber and I enjoyed it very much.

I appreciate the very japanese take on combining traditional turn-based blobber mechanics (i.e. Wiz-clones) with "traditional JRPG tropes". Makes for a fun time!
 
Last edited:

MRY

Wormwood Studios
Developer
Joined
Aug 15, 2012
Messages
5,716
Location
California
I've read about Wizardry 4 (maybe on CRPG Addict, maybe elsewhere). That's like the catch-up aspect of my idea, but doesn't include the idea of letting the player grind between checkpoints if he needs to.

Also, has anyone confirmed whether Kyrandia 3 is inspired by Wizardry 4?
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
Dont forget: best because of gameplay mechanic. FF8 story is so-so. Pioneer for its age (school-age heroes) but not that special otherwise.

FF7? Yeah, guilty as charged. I aint touching that rectangular block graphic.
FF9? Changing point of view AND changing that character's equipment with another character's inventory setting? Experiment, it is. No forewarning, not cool.

Caution: I havent even touch anything beyond FF10 so anything later than ff10-2 is uncharted territory for me.

Three words: Shin Megami Tensei.

Final Fantasy VII's blocky graphics are gone in a matter of hours. FFIX is arguably one of the best Final Fantasy games ever made. It's the definition of "charm", a word I see so often used when it comes to jRPGs, but this one is the first jRPG where I actually see that word come true: it really feels like a fantasy book for children but done well, like Toy Story and A Bug's Life.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,150
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
I dont disagree that FF9 has its peculiar charm. Kinda like Legend of Mana.

Problem is, the change to another character's role is jarring, ESPECIALLY when we have to get into inventory to check who is it we really are (if we can).
 

Sigourn

uooh afficionado
Joined
Feb 6, 2016
Messages
5,656
I dont disagree that FF9 has its peculiar charm. Kinda like Legend of Mana.

Problem is, the change to another character's role is jarring, ESPECIALLY when we have to get into inventory to check who is it we really are (if we can).

I'm not aware what is it that you refer to. I remember that at certain points we change POV with other characters (not in those quick events, though) but I don't remember being annoyed at my inventory going bonkers or anything like that.
 

laclongquan

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2007
Messages
1,870,150
Location
Searching for my kidnapped sister
Let's say you are controlling party 123, with three characters. You suddenly change to another POV, with the POV character assume the inventory and equipment of 1,or 2, or 3 or 4 who is not in the last party. You have to check your inventory to see who is it you are assuming fake-control. There's no indication at all.

It is jarring as heck. And the only way for you to know ahead is reading a guide, for there's no forewarning.

Of course, if that incident (happened 4-5 times) doesnt ruin your gaming then it's fine. FF9 has no other problem than that.
 

RuySan

Augur
Joined
Jul 11, 2005
Messages
777
Location
Portugal
MRY

BTW, started playing COSMIC STAR HEROINE today (steam/ps4/vita) and it is the JRPG-throwback that "I Am Setsuna" desperately wanted to be! If you want to play a true "love letter to JRPGs" and were disappointed by Setsuna, go get COSMIC STAR HEROINE right now.

P.S. Whoever mentioned Shining the Holy Ark gets +1000 kodex kool kredits. It is indeed a very worthy blobber and I enjoyed it very much.

I appreciate the very japanese take on combining traditional turn-based blobber mechanics (i.e. Wiz-clones) with "traditional JRPG tropes". Makes for a fun time!

Man, stop whatever you're doing since the Cosmic Star Heroine thread needs the opinion of an expert. The game looks good but the comments and steam reviews don't feel me with confidence.
 

Beastro

Arcane
Joined
May 11, 2015
Messages
8,071
Xenogears is horrible -- the worst parts of jRPGs are hypertrophied in it: the endlessly long cutscenes; the ponderous misuse of Christian and Western imagery (not saying that the same doesn't happen in the other direction with Buddhist and Eastern imagery); the tedious and pointless battles; the lack of any gameplay outside of said battles; the loading times; the nonsensical mix of technology and fantasy. To be honest, there aren't many jRPGs where I would say the gameplay is "good" in the sense of being an interesting series of meaningful tactical and strategic choices, but there are lots of jRPGs where the gameplay has a mindless satisfaction with sufficient low friction as to be a good diversion. Or, at least, it was a good diversion when I was in middle and high school. But Xenogears is the exact opposite. The only possible rewards come from scrupulous engagement with a dumb and arcane plot conveyed mostly essentially uninteractive cutscenes. Bah, humbug.

Speaking as someone who likes Xenogears and always has had a special place for it, I have to agree.

The imagery part goes farther, that is the unoriginal, simple, "switching out" use of allegory where symbolism and such are simply taken from elsewhere and place into the next setting expected to function within it based on what it has been taken from. A good example of that is the use of names in the game even if they were botched in translation, like Ramsus, which was originally Ramses and ties into the overweening pride in the poem Ozymandias.
 

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